Why are the fans not even sitting at the table? The NFL Lockout...

[MattFancy]

No, I see your theoretical point. It makes sense and is logical, it just would never happen like that in real life. Never will a majority of fans do something in unison.

I don't blame you for being frustrated and not believing them. That too is completely justified.

I know that you're not pushing the idea of fans having "a seat at the table" but these threads always amuse me. Fans don't (and shouldn't) have a role in these negotiations.

I agree with everything you said. My idea sounds great in theory, but would probably never happen. But if people used that energy to stop buying things instead of making these threads and/or calling radio stations to complain, maybe it could work.

But you're 100%, the fans don't deserve nor should they be at the negotiating table. The thing is that the NFL needs the fans to succeed, the fans don't need the NFL (although reading some things in here you would think they do). So if you're tired of the NFL don't watch, don't buy stuff, etc. But the problem is that 99.9% of people ****ing about the NFL, will run right back to it with open arms once the season starts.

[JPCreativelab]

I don't have to pay Best Buy for my next 10 purchases in advance or pay the hospital for my next 10 illnesses in advance.

I don't buy Best Buy or hospital employee's jerseys, hats, coffee cups, key chains, cards, photos, etc... Who have you heard say "I can't wait to get my favorite Geek Squad's Jersey!"

I don't spend hours at the water cooler talking with friends and foes about my hernia operation or the new computer I saw at Best Buy.

NFL Football is a big part of American culture and a large part of many American's past times. It cannot be compared to any other normal buisness practices or labor issues.

you might not do that, cause you are a football guy, but a big geek would...(ok not exactly, but you get my point)

fans/consumers are all the same, just cause football consumes some of you more than others doesn't make you better or give you more rights than other consumers.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

So to your point shouldn't they stand up to them now? If the operating costs are too high it does not matter who owns the team. Again, I believe one of the biggest factors is that when revenue goes up the players want their salaries to go up proportionally as well, yet when revenues are down they are unwilling to have their salaries go down proportionally. They can't have it both ways, it creates an unrealistic and unsustainable environment.

---------- Post added May-18th-2011 at 12:19 PM ----------

The owners were relying on a slush fund to help them break the players associations back. Locking out the players serves no intelligent strategy to benefit their respective bank accounts. The owners created this monster that they are complaining about by signing agreements that they knew damn well down the line they were going to challenge these agreements in court. The court route serves no amicable settlement to their dilemma they find themselves in today.

Please, save your passion for other causes and not for some owners who have plotted this course of action for some time now. The players have made the league what it is today. Granted, it is not all peaches and cream, but the players have benefited the owners in positive financial ways beyond the owners expectations. The NFL is a players league and not the other way around.

If they are operating in a deficient then why haven't they documented these facts so that the players association can see these figures and readjust their piece of the pie. Why would the owners want to hide the documentation? Does it really exist? If so, show the players the proof.

It's too late for the owners to stand up to the players association. Again, this is a players league and not a owners league. The players, past and present, are the ones with the battle scares playing a game that most love. The owners have created a monster that they have no solutions to benefit the owners further. So, the owners have to reside to settle on a workable percentage of the product profit and get over it.

Thank you for your concern, but I have plenty of passion to go around! I have a hard time buying your argument that this is a players league, especially when we see high priced free agent after high priced free agent work their tail off to get the "big payday" and then turnaround and quit on the team before the ink is dry on the contract. As a Redskin fan you should know this more than most. Without the owners their is no NFL, you can spin it anyway you like but that is the truth. The last work stoppage resulted in "scab" players crossing the picket line and guess what, the NFL carried right on without the original players. How could this be possible if the league revolved around them? By the way, the last time this happened it worked out pretty well for the Skin's. Maybe this is the kind of thing that guy's like AH need to see, the passion of guy's that would give anything to simply have the opportunity to play the game he so grossly takes for granted.

[angel2]

Thank you for your concern, but I have plenty of passion to go around! I have a hard time buying your argument that this is a players league, especially when we see high priced free agent after high priced free agent work their tail off to get the "big payday" and then turnaround and quit on the team before the ink is dry on the contract. As a Redskin fan you should know this more than most. Without the owners their is no NFL, you can spin it anyway you like but that is the truth. The last work stoppage resulted in "scab" players crossing the picket line and guess what, the NFL carried right on without the original players. How could this be possible if the league revolved around them? By the way, the last time this happened it worked out pretty well for the Skin's. Maybe this is the kind of thing that guy's like AH need to see, the passion of guy's that would give anything to simply have the opportunity to play the game he so grossly takes for granted.

You are making my argument for me, thank you. The owners and their agents create the AHs and the like by over-paying for these guys. They created the inflationary conditions of today's game. They over-pay for draftees too.

So this situation of the lockout lays squarely on their laps. Players are going get as much as they can if they employ the right agent to represent their interest.

[allannis]

Just because we're the one delivering the money, doesn't mean we should decide who gets more of it. The money is, literally, out of our hands at that point.

It's ridiculous at this point, but we shouldn't act like we deserve a 'seat'. Most fans wouldn't understand what's going on anyway. We saw what fans do when given the chance to speak: hoot and holler and chant 'we want football' like jackasses. That is not helpful, and I thought it was dumb. No **** we want football, there's pages and pages of legal matters to be taken care of.

Then, the fans would just be split on who's side they're on, and that's an unjust opinion anyway because we don't know any owners, and aren't part of the team or anything. 'Fan involvement' in this is going to be nothing but rednecks hollering, and they will be ignored until this is resolved. As it should be.

I disagree with this,if there was a fan association we could hire lawyers to look out for our best interests, just like the owners and players do. Imagine if the players spoke for themselves, you don't think they would sound like a bunch of jackasses? We do deliver the money, just think if we could speak with one voice, how much power we could have at the table.

[Hitman21ST]

I disagree with this,if there was a fan association we could hire lawyers to look out for our best interests, just like the owners and players do. Imagine if the players spoke for themselves, you don't think they would sound like a bunch of jackasses? We do deliver the money, just think if we could speak with one voice, how much power we could have at the table.

That's the problem, though. If one fan viewpoint gets air time, then others undoubtedly will want air time, too. Kind of like the "second-tier" players who wanted THEIR voice heard.

If the players can't get one common voice to represent them, the fans have no chance.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

You are making my argument for me, thank you. The owners and their agents create the AHs and the like by over-paying for these guys. They created the inflationary conditions of today's game. They over-pay for draftees too.

So this situation of the lockout lays squarely on their laps. Players are going get as much as they can if they employ the right agent to represent their interest.

Wrong! The market creates the inflated contracts. Again, if your argument was correct, IMO, these saviors of the league (the players) would play even harder to earn the $ thus creating the "players league" you keep grasping for. By your logic, we should only pay what we wanted to pay for gas. This does not work, the market creates the current price per gallon we are looking at. If you want to drive, you must pay the current price per gallon, if you want to be a competitive franchise you must pay the going rate for free agents.

[skinsrbeast]

why would those who pay for boxing events be in on the planning of a boxing event. When push comes to shove fans are NOT the NFL we are just those who are being entertained. And although our money drives it, it would take a lot for us not to buy tickets

[MusicCitySkin]

Why should anyone give a crap what we think? When has the common person's opinion ever mattered in this country?

[wrecker]

Why should anyone give a crap what we think? When has the common person's opinion ever mattered in this country?

1776?

[DRSmith]

Thank you for your concern, but I have plenty of passion to go around! I have a hard time buying your argument that this is a players league, especially when we see high priced free agent after high priced free agent work their tail off to get the "big payday" and then turnaround and quit on the team before the ink is dry on the contract. As a Redskin fan you should know this more than most. Without the owners their is no NFL, you can spin it anyway you like but that is the truth. The last work stoppage resulted in "scab" players crossing the picket line and guess what, the NFL carried right on without the original players. How could this be possible if the league revolved around them? By the way, the last time this happened it worked out pretty well for the Skin's. Maybe this is the kind of thing that guy's like AH need to see, the passion of guy's that would give anything to simply have the opportunity to play the game he so grossly takes for granted.

Who held the gun to the owners head to sign the contract with garuantees?

You think I am going to pay for NFL Sunday ticket for scabs?

Do you think advertisers are going to pay for lesser players?

Nevermind dishing out 200 a ticket for the game in Toronto

[TheRookie]

1776?

Haha. Nice. I would also say every election cycle. But, I'm sure I'm just being naive and not realizing that elections are bought and sold by those "elitist corporate ****s."

[MattFancy]

I disagree with this,if there was a fan association we could hire lawyers to look out for our best interests, just like the owners and players do. Imagine if the players spoke for themselves, you don't think they would sound like a bunch of jackasses? We do deliver the money, just think if we could speak with one voice, how much power we could have at the table.

Not to be mean, but that is the dumbest idea ever. A fan association? If the fans are unhappy with the league, then stop watching. That's the easiest thing to do.

[Mursilis]

So to your point shouldn't they stand up to them now? If the operating costs are too high it does not matter who owns the team. Again, I believe one of the biggest factors is that when revenue goes up the players want their salaries to go up proportionally as well, yet when revenues are down they are unwilling to have their salaries go down proportionally. They can't have it both ways, it creates an unrealistic and unsustainable environment.

How many NFL teams are actually losing money? I've heard of none, but I could be wrong. I'd love for a link if you've got info that any NFL team is actually losing money being part of the gold mine that is the NFL.

[JPCreativelab]

Not to be mean, but that is the dumbest idea ever. A fan association? If the fans are unhappy with the league, then stop watching. That's the easiest thing to do.

+1 i dont get what makes NFL fans think they are entitled to more than other consumers around the the country?

we are not "a part of the NFL" we are the end user. sure they will try to give us good customer support and a good customer experience, even take our advice or listen to what we have to say...but when it comes to THIS....you have to be crazy to even think a fan/consumer has any right being involved.

[Mursilis]

Maybe I am way off the mark, but honestly, the further this lockout goes on without any clear signs of being resolved, I find myself getting more and more upset, and the season ticket holders do not even have a say in the matter.

Fans have the ultimate say in the matter - they can literally shut the league down. Track cycling used to be huge in the U.S. - events were held at Madison Square Gardens, and presidents used to follow the sport. Top racers in the '10's and '20's used to make $20-30K per week (still good money now!) in season, but once fan interest went away, so did the sport.

I am aware a lot will say "If you don't like it, stop watching" or some other type of rationalism, but honestly I grew up watching football. It is a part of my life, whether that is good or bad, it is. Imagine our society without any baseball, football, hockey, etc.

I love several different sports, and I'd miss them, but life would go on. There's still music, movies, theater, literature, travel, family, and recreational activities to fill my free time, so I'd survive just fine. If spectator sports are all you've got going on in your life, I'd look at it again.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

1776?

:applause:

[DRSmith]

Wrong! The market creates the inflated contracts. Again, if your argument was correct, IMO, these saviors of the league (the players) would play even harder to earn the $ thus creating the "players league" you keep grasping for. By your logic, we should only pay what we wanted to pay for gas. This does not work, the market creates the current price per gallon we are looking at. If you want to drive, you must pay the current price per gallon, if you want to be a competitive franchise you must pay the going rate for free agents.

There are only 32 teams so it is not like they are going to lose players to another league so it is the owners that create the demand to over pay players, the owners are the ones who sat at the table and did the last deal no one had to give AH 100 million dollars everyone could have offered lower contracts based on performance

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

Who held the gun to the owners head to sign the contract with garuantees? No gun needed... again I point to what the market dictates.

You think I am going to pay for NFL Sunday ticket for scabs?

Do you think advertisers are going to pay for lesser players?

Nevermind dishing out 200 a ticket for the game in Toronto

In short... yes! As soon as the marketers work their magic and poor a ton of money into telling us how amazing these "new" players are, we will eat it up. As a musician I can think of no greater example than the music industry. They are masters at shoving horrible, no talent artists down our throats. Once the marketing machine gets behind the flavor of the month they make millions. We don't care they are lip-singing, we still buy their CD's, we shell out ridiculous amounts for concert tickets, and download from iTunes like their is no tomorrow. These new artists can easily be considered the "scabs" (as you put it) of the music industry.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:55 AM ----------

How many NFL teams are actually losing money? I've heard of none, but I could be wrong. I'd love for a link if you've got info that any NFL team is actually losing money being part of the gold mine that is the NFL.

http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/27249-green-bay-financial-report-shows-profit-down-a-considerable-amount

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:59 AM ----------

There are only 32 teams so it is not like they are going to lose players to another league so it is the owners that create the demand to over pay players, the owners are the ones who sat at the table and did the last deal no one had to give AH 100 million dollars everyone could have offered lower contracts based on performance

Through rose colored glasses, this is a possibility. In reality, the drive to win now is a must every year. This pressure is imparted to the owners, coaches, and players in large part by us the fans. One of the owners will always pay because we want them to win now.

[Mursilis]

http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/27249-green-bay-financial-report-shows-profit-down-a-considerable-amount

I asked for any information that any single NFL team was losing money, and you provided a link showing the Packers are, in fact, still making a profit in a down economy? Sure, their profit is down, but they're still profitable.

[angel2]

Wrong! The market creates the inflated contracts. Again, if your argument was correct, IMO, these saviors of the league (the players) would play even harder to earn the $ thus creating the "players league" you keep grasping for. By your logic, we should only pay what we wanted to pay for gas. This does not work, the market creates the current price per gallon we are looking at. If you want to drive, you must pay the current price per gallon, if you want to be a competitive franchise you must pay the going rate for free agents.

Are you that naive? The market, as you alluded to, is govern by the owners who pay these ridiculous contracts - not all owners. Does the "market" cough up the dollars to pay for the contracts that the "market" suggest is worthy of said player? Market equals media pressure to come up with the ghostly market value. Which is a figment of your perception. Smoke and mirrors, if you will.

Again, this is a players league. The owners want it back. The owners want to go back to the days of leather helmets or the days of the '50's or '60's in order to reign in the players - simple contracts for stupid players. The topic is football, not a comparison of gas prices. The market is the owners execution of what it perceives as fair or outrages. The forces of the market, according to my concept, is just a figment of your naivete.

Nice try, but remember, the "market" is dictated and govern by the payers/owners.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 11:59 AM ----------

There are only 32 teams so it is not like they are going to lose players to another league so it is the owners that create the demand to over pay players, the owners are the ones who sat at the table and did the last deal no one had to give AH 100 million dollars everyone could have offered lower contracts based on performance

Agree totally with you. Case in point: Snyder is a marketeer and also an owner.

[allannis]

+1 i dont get what makes NFL fans think they are entitled to more than other consumers around the the country?

we are not "a part of the NFL" we are the end user. sure they will try to give us good customer support and a good customer experience, even take our advice or listen to what we have to say...but when it comes to THIS....you have to be crazy to even think a fan/consumer has any right being involved.

Why do the players have the right to be involved with how the owners spend their money. without fans there is no NFL, i'd say thats already involved. Fans just need to be more organized. Trust me a boycott of all NFL products would end this fast. Sorry you think I have to be crazy.

[JPCreativelab]

Why do the players have the right to be involved with how the owners spend their money. without fans there is no NFL, i'd say thats already involved. Fans just need to be more organized. Trust me a boycott of all NFL products would end this fast. Sorry you think I have to be crazy.

a boycott is a different kind of involved though. sure if people can get together and make it a large enough one to make an impact, that would be great and i agree with that kind of involved.

having fans involved with the mediation, court cases, etc would never and should never happen, its just not the fans place to be involved in that.

[angel2]

In short... yes! As soon as the marketers work their magic and poor a ton of money into telling us how amazing these "new" players are, we will eat it up. As a musician I can think of no greater example than the music industry. They are masters at shoving horrible, no talent artists down our throats. Once the marketing machine gets behind the flavor of the month they make millions. We don't care they are lip-singing, we still buy their CD's, we shell out ridiculous amounts for concert tickets, and download from iTunes like their is no tomorrow. These new artists can easily be considered the "scabs" (as you put it) of the music industry.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:55 AM ----------

http://communityvoices.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/sports/bob-smiziks-blog/27249-green-bay-financial-report-shows-profit-down-a-considerable-amount

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 07:59 AM ----------

Through rose colored glasses, this is a possibility. In reality, the drive to win now is a must every year. This pressure is imparted to the owners, coaches, and players in large part by us the fans. One of the owners will always pay because we want them to win now.

DRSmith, I have to apologize to you for a "bug" in the posting response link. Maybe the Admins can fix so the right poster will be credit with the correct quote.

I, Angel2, did not authored the above posting. Just thought you should know.

[allannis]

That's the problem, though. If one fan viewpoint gets air time, then others undoubtedly will want air time, too. Kind of like the "second-tier" players who wanted THEIR voice heard.

If the players can't get one common voice to represent them, the fans have no chance.

I wasn't aware that the players didn't neg by way of their union.

---------- Post added May-19th-2011 at 12:43 PM ----------

Not to be mean, but that is the dumbest idea ever. A fan association? If the fans are unhappy with the league, then stop watching. That's the easiest thing to do.

Dumbest idea ever lol you must not hear many ideas. I agree if fans are unhappy thy should just boycott, i'm just saying there is nothing wrong with being organized about it.