Why are the fans not even sitting at the table? The NFL Lockout...

[JPCreativelab]

The reason you think they can't grasp that concept is they're not necessarily stuck in that box with you.

Describing how it is doesn't necessarily address how it could be, how it should be, etc.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 01:00 PM ----------

So you feel your money should be your only possible input? That strikes me as a very limited way of thinking, since there are plenty of other ways to influence others.

Have you ever tried to influence someone on this forum? I think you just did (for example).

im not stuck in a box, its the way things are and there is no "thinking outside the box" on this one.

so you think that we need to revolutionize football, the fans are now part of the league and have a say in everything that takes place?

if that is what you are trying to say, then id love to hear your ideas.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 04:21 PM ----------

he didnt influence anyone, he did exactly what he would do if he was sitting at the negotiation table.

"you guys are stupid"

"no we arent"

that is exactly the scope of influence he had over you, which is none.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 04:24 PM ----------

and even if this whole outside the box project was possible, i wouldnt get involved, and not sure i would want the people who would want to get involved to be my representation with the NFL...

[allannis]

out of everything ever argued on this board, this is the one thing i thought was completely obvious.

not sure why some people just cant grasp the concept that fans/consumers are not a part of the products they use/cheer for, you have no say except with your wallet.

maybe some of the examples used arent making sense. there arent fans of Best Buy...or Ford...so how about this...

Metallica stops putting out music cause of some disagreement with their label...they say they wont make another note, song or album until their record label fixes the issues.

If you are a Metallica fan, do you have the right to be at those meetings between the band and their label to help get Metallica back to making music so you can download their songs and go to the scheduled upcoming concert?

in case it wasnt obvious, the answer is NO.

Teams have already asked fans to be involved when they ask us yell at home games to help them win . the ring of honor has the 12th man on it . The metallica example is close but not the same. Teams ask the fan to have a special connection to them, they promote using the words our, and we, when talking about our team, they ask us to be part of Redskin Nation. If a band stops making records nobody will say where did our band go.If the Redskins stop playing, most of us here will miss our team. Players and owners will come and go, but the fans will always be here . We need to organize so they will want us to be at the table,whether its our right or not.

[SpacePenguin]

In answer to the topic question...just read this thread. That's why the fans aren't at the table.We're just faceless masses who can rarely agree on anything except that football needs to happen now.

Should fans have a seat "at the table"? Of course.

Would it help matters? I doubt it. If either side was serious about compromises, the CBA would be done already.

[Phixius]

Maybe I am way off the mark, but honestly, the further this lockout goes on without any clear signs of being resolved, I find myself getting more and more upset, and the season ticket holders do not even have a say in the matter.

If this thing is not resolved by the time there was supposed to be OTA's, practices, etc. I would be angry. Yes, the NFL has agreed to refund the season tickets of any games missed, but for the games that we are paying for, are they really up to par with the quality of product that the NFL should be delivering? They would virtually have no practice time...no time to come together and get a chance to become that much better as teams, improving the games we watch as a whole. Instead, we are relegated to watching from afar the owners and players, fight over the money we will be giving them as consumers. That makes no sense to me. The fans should have a seat at these discussions, to make sure our interests are represented.

I know some will say, after things are worked out, and after a season, people will not be talking about this and carrying on like it never happened, but that is not the point. I think the mediation should be televised. Why? Accountability of providing us services up to par to what people expect. Other services are regulated. Why not America's favorite sport? When people are arguing about billions of dollars just like it was $1000 to the average person, there should be some accountability to us as season ticket holders.

I am aware a lot will say "If you don't like it, stop watching" or some other type of rationalism, but honestly I grew up watching football. It is a part of my life, whether that is good or bad, it is. Imagine our society without any baseball, football, hockey, etc.

Which is why I am saying, we should be made aware of everything going on, and have a seat at the table, rather than waiting for what they want to present us with.

Just my two cents. And if this was already talked about, I apologize I could not find it and please merge with that discussion.

The longer the lockout, the less interest I have in the NFL period. You make valid points but give it a rest already. You're getting refund for any games missed, what more do you what? Okay so the players won't play to their potential as well from lack of practice time, big deal? Just enjoy the game(if it ever comes back on) and not let it control your life.

I don't know about everyone else but I've benefited from the lockout as it made me realize how sports is just entertainment for me and there's no need to be all serious about it. There''s more important things to value in life than football. You chose to give your money to the owners, they don't own you anything. You pay to be entertain, nothing more. What gives you the right to be involved? If the owners wanted your input, they would ask for it. I've move on and focus on other things while the owners and players settle their dispute. It's not my fight.

[Laxpunk2006]

maybe some of the examples used arent making sense. there arent fans of Best Buy...or Ford...so how about this...

We're agreeing on the same point but as a huge car enthusiast (BMW rather than Ford) I disagree that there aren't Ford fans. I've owned 3 cars in my life and they have all been (old) BMW's. I'm a huge fan of the brand. I respect their racing heritage just like I respect Redskins tradition. I don't personally care for Ford, but there are car guys out there just as diehard about Ford as we are about our Redskins. It was a valid example.

[allannis]

We're agreeing on the same point but as a huge car enthusiast (BMW rather than Ford) I disagree that there aren't Ford fans. I've owned 3 cars in my life and they have all been (old) BMW's. I'm a huge fan of the brand. I respect their racing heritage just like I respect Redskins tradition. I don't personally care for Ford, but there are car guys out there just as diehard about Ford as we are about our Redskins. It was a valid example.

Most BMW owners do not try to undermine the success of the Ford motor co, nor are they asked to. by BMW, This is not true when it come to NFL teams. The Redskins ask you to make noise so the other team can't hear or will get confused, making us part of the game itself. Yeah BMW nanana nant Ford sucks!

[D-Day]

Fans are customers, customers are never in business negotiations. I know some people feel like football is a right or something, but it is a business. Bringing fans to the table is an idiotic notion.

[wrecker]

We're agreeing on the same point but as a huge car enthusiast (BMW rather than Ford) I disagree that there aren't Ford fans. I've owned 3 cars in my life and they have all been (old) BMW's. I'm a huge fan of the brand. I respect their racing heritage just like I respect Redskins tradition. I don't personally care for Ford, but there are car guys out there just as diehard about Ford as we are about our Redskins. It was a valid example.

I have searched for an ExtremeBMWs message board but can't seem to find it. Do you know the website?

[JPCreativelab]

We're agreeing on the same point but as a huge car enthusiast (BMW rather than Ford) I disagree that there aren't Ford fans. I've owned 3 cars in my life and they have all been (old) BMW's. I'm a huge fan of the brand. I respect their racing heritage just like I respect Redskins tradition. I don't personally care for Ford, but there are car guys out there just as diehard about Ford as we are about our Redskins. It was a valid example.

it was tongue in cheek when i got to that point.

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:21 AM ----------

Teams have already asked fans to be involved when they ask us yell at home games to help them win . the ring of honor has the 12th man on it . The metallica example is close but not the same. Teams ask the fan to have a special connection to them, they promote using the words our, and we, when talking about our team, they ask us to be part of Redskin Nation. If a band stops making records nobody will say where did our band go.If the Redskins stop playing, most of us here will miss our team. Players and owners will come and go, but the fans will always be here . We need to organize so they will want us to be at the table,whether its our right or not.

really? if your favorite band vanished, you wouldn't care? no one in fact would care? but the NFL is different? you completely lost me there man

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:24 AM ----------

of course us fans are involved...and of course they want us involved...it ensures life long use of their brand by us...just like Philip Morris..."hook em young"

cheering at the stadium is a far cry from sitting down with the top brass at the negotiation table...hell, even where i am employed, we have "fans"...im an employee, and neither me or the "fans" are invited to board meetings...

why is that?

[allannis]

it was tongue in cheek when i got to that point.

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:21 AM ----------

really? if your favorite band vanished, you wouldn't care? no one in fact would care? but the NFL is different? you completely lost me there man

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:24 AM ----------

of course us fans are involved...and of course they want us involved...it ensures life long use of their brand by us...just like Philip Morris..."hook em young"

cheering at the stadium is a far cry from sitting down with the top brass at the negotiation table...hell, even where i am employed, we have "fans"...im an employee, and neither me or the "fans" are invited to board meetings...

why is that?[/QUO

[FONT="Impact"]Maybe because you didn,t ask No band or record label ever asked me to be part of the process of gaining an end result. Regardless about how you feel about being directly involved in neg. a fan association would let us have a voice that owners and players could listen to or ignore, that would be their choice. I did and still do miss the Beatles.[/font]

sorry not that good at this

[allannis]

Fans are customers, customers are never in business negotiations. I know some people feel like football is a right or something, but it is a business. Bringing fans to the table is an idiotic notion.

This is what the owners probably used to say about players before there was a players union

[JPCreativelab]

it was tongue in cheek when i got to that point.

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:21 AM ----------

really? if your favorite band vanished, you wouldn't care? no one in fact would care? but the NFL is different? you completely lost me there man

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:24 AM ----------

of course us fans are involved...and of course they want us involved...it ensures life long use of their brand by us...just like Philip Morris..."hook em young"

cheering at the stadium is a far cry from sitting down with the top brass at the negotiation table...hell, even where i am employed, we have "fans"...im an employee, and neither me or the "fans" are invited to board meetings...

why is that?[/QUO

[FONT="Impact"]Maybe because you didn,t ask No band or record label ever asked me to be part of the process of gaining an end result. Regardless about how you feel about being directly involved in neg. a fan association would let us have a voice that owners and players could listen to or ignore, that would be their choice. I did and still do miss the Beatles.[/font]

sorry not that good at this

no band has ever said "buy a ticket, see the show"? im pretty sure they have

and just to be clear (ive said this twice already, maybe it keeps getting missed) im all for whatever fans want to do as far as banding together to attempt to get their voice heard, whether that is yelling REALLY loud, or by boycotting, if people want to do that, more power to them.

i have issue with the other part, the actually title of the thread, that states, why arent fans sitting at the table...there is a big difference between what people keep saying as "getting heard" and actually being part of the negotiations, and sitting at the table...

[allannis]

Buy a ticket-see the show is advertising, a bit different than come be part of the show. Didn't Mr. Snyder once say that he looked at his ownership more as a stewardship,or somthing like that. Having said that JP i think we are in agreement.

[worstSeat]

I think you are offering a valid point and you should be taken seriously as a disenchanted ticket holder/fan who is upset with the negotiating up to this point. Could we take this further and include those that subscribe to NFL Sunday Ticket?

You're still a customer rather than a stockholder, even if season ticket holders are made to feel differently.

I wonder if Packers stock holders have the chance to sit in. I hate that you can't really buy shares off of someone. I'd do it, if given the chance.

---------- Post added May-26th-2011 at 08:23 PM ----------

I have searched for an ExtremeBMWs message board but can't seem to find it. Do you know the website?

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,0/ is close.

[Wildbunny]

Teams have already asked fans to be involved when they ask us yell at home games to help them win . the ring of honor has the 12th man on it . The metallica example is close but not the same. Teams ask the fan to have a special connection to them, they promote using the words our, and we, when talking about our team, they ask us to be part of Redskin Nation. If a band stops making records nobody will say where did our band go.If the Redskins stop playing, most of us here will miss our team. Players and owners will come and go, but the fans will always be here . We need to organize so they will want us to be at the table,whether its our right or not.

When you talk about teams, you mean owners or players? B/c teams are both...

Anyway, if you want to do something as fans altogether, just create an association or whatever and encourage every and one fan to:

- Stop watching NFL on TV

- Stop going on NFL Network

- Stop buying merchandising

- Get a refund for every ticket they have and don't go to stadium on any given sunday when this thing is sorted.

Then you'd have probably every one pissed hard enough to think that this kind of thing have not to happen a second time.

Owners wouldn't be pleased with the loss of revenues, and players will hate playing in empty stadiums, and see that they're not making the money they used to (no revenues, no money for employees, jobs being cuts and so on...)

Otherwise, don't bother being at the table, it's probably way to boring to be there and you'll probably learn that both owners and players don't care about you that much as long as you keep on giving them your money and rooting for them.

[Crazy Levi]

The fact of the matter is fans are all blowhards and full of ****. Every single person who has "given up on the NFL" or "won't watch another game!" due to the lockout will be back the second the CBA is signed.

Might as well stop pretending otherwise.

[Commander Adama]

Okay, can someone please answer why this thread is still on the front page? I make really good, well-thought posts and they usually fall like a rock after an hour or two, but this thread won't go away after 10 days! Why won't this thread die??

I am not adding anything to this other than to say my original post was not taken how I meant to convey it....so please let this thing die a quick death now!

[JPCreativelab]

Okay, can someone please answer why this thread is still on the front page? I make really good, well-thought posts and they usually fall like a rock after an hour or two, but this thread won't go away after 10 days! Why won't this thread die??

I am not adding anything to this other than to say my original post was not taken how I meant to convey it....so please let this thing die a quick death now!

haha you inadvertently started a revolution...

viva la NFL FANS!