Thiebear Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Israel-Palestinian violence erupts on three borders http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/15/us-palestinians-palestinians-idUSTRE74E1NT20110515 (Reuters) - Violence erupted on Israel's borders with Syria, Lebanon and Gaza on Sunday, leaving at least eight dead and dozens wounded, as Palestinians marked what they term "the catastrophe" of Israel's founding in 1948. Israeli troops shot at protesters in three separate locations to prevent crowds from crossing Israeli frontier lines in the deadliest such confrontation in years. Israeli and Syrian media reports said Israeli gunfire killed four people after dozens of Palestinian refugees infiltrated the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights from Syria, along a disputed border that has been quiet for decades. Witnesses on the nearby Lebanese frontier said four Palestinians were killed after Israeli forces fired at rock-throwing protesters to prevent them from crossing the border. The Lebanese army had also earlier fired in the air in an attempt to hold back the crowds. On Israel's tense southern border with the Gaza Strip, Israeli gunfire wounded 60 Palestinians as demonstrators approached Israel's fence with the Hamas Islamist-run enclave, medical workers said. In Tel Aviv, Israel's commercial hub, a truck driven by an Arab Israeli slammed into vehicles and pedestrians, killing one man and injuring 17 people. Police were trying to determine whether the incident was an accident or an attack. Witnesses said the driver, who was arrested, ran amok with his truck in downtown traffic. ALERT Israeli security forces had been on alert for violence on Sunday, the day Palestinians mark the "Nakba," or catastrophe, of Israel's founding in a 1948 war, when hundreds of thousands of their brethren fled or were forced to leave their homes. In the Druze village of Majdal Shams, on the Golan Heights captured by Israel from Syria in 1967, Mayor Dolan Abu Salah said between 40 and 50 Nakba demonstrators from Syria tore through the frontier fence. Now is the time Palestinians could probably get the most out of the United Nations. With all of the other Countries in turmoil, now is when you ask for Statehood and stability. Does doing this get you closer as the rebels in Libya or the protestors in Egypt and other countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 good luck to Palestine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Good luck to all those in the Middle East...Israel and Palestine included....may you finally know the peace that has eluded you for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Good luck to all those in the Middle East...Israel and Palestine included....may you finally know the peace that has eluded you for so long. Maybe when the corrupt regimes of the Middle East collapse, they won't need the manufactured and perpetual Jew-baiting inherent in the "Palestinian problem" to divert and distract their people. They were killing Jews there before there was a 1948. And no word of the 800,000 (or was it more) Jews whose property was expropriated and expelled from Arab lands for the crime of being Jewish in a year when a Jewish nation was established in "Dar al-Islam." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just don't understand why these people can't just cohabitate. I (vaguely) know the history behind the conflict between them, which stretches thousands of years, but there has to be some kind of compromise that will end this whole mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The hardest part right now is that each side quite legitimately hates and distrusts the other. Both have given the other ample reason. It's nearly impossible to create a peace with someone you hate and don't trust. That's where you need a third party to come in that both sides can live with to at least lay out a plan. Under Bush, the U.S. was far too beholden to Israel and couldn't act as a peace broker because of that. Obama has taken a few steps back and might be one day able to fill that role, but probably not. Sadly, this is the perfect mission for the United Nations if the UN were what it was intended to be. In reality, the UN is too corrupt, toothless, and incompetent to take on this role. The other problem and you can see it even here on ES when JMS, I, Predicto or others talk. There's far too much chicken and the egg. Far too much blame. Far too many reasons why one side or the other should be hated. I've lost families in this. I've heard from relatives who tell me what it's like living under the constant threat of random missiles, bombs and other acts of terror. On the same hand, the Israeli reprisals have often been very violent and the living conditions that many Palestinians live in is shameful. In other words, it's a mess and everyone is too busy screaming to listen or talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I just don't understand why these people can't just cohabitate. I (vaguely) know the history behind the conflict between them, which stretches thousands of years, but there has to be some kind of compromise that will end this whole mess. Uh, they can. There are a million Arab citizens of Israel. Hell, one of the outbreaks today was on the Syrian border, probably not involving "Palestinians" as such. To compromise, both sides have to be at least willing to entertain the idea of peace at a minimum, if not harmonious interaction. Let me put it another way, if the "Arab/Muslim street" rioted over 9/11, or terror attacks on subways in Moscow or trains or shed blood protecting Christian minorities in their countries and LESS fixated on alleged or manufactured incidents of oppression (Jenin and the al-Durra cases), I think people would be more favorably disposed in their generalizations of that/those groups. While I've seen Christian groups (whether or not they proselytize) go all over the world to feed, educate and shelter the poor and oppressed, where as the Muslim charities aside from those that specifically cater to Muslims? Hell, Darfur, where it was Muslim against Muslim, it was the Christian/non-Muslim world that seemed more upset about it than Muslims ever did. I just think it's pure chauvinism and it's why they get more upset about rumors of Koran mishandling or Mohammad cartoons (notice there is a book of mormon show on broadway and no one is rioting and Mormonism has adherents all over the globe now) than they do about outrages committed in the name of Islam against non-Muslims. Even decades-long ones like the government of Sudan's wars of genocide and enslavement against Muslim and non-Muslim alike. ---------- Post added May-15th-2011 at 06:06 PM ---------- The hardest part right now is that each side quite legitimately hates and distrusts the other. Both have given the other ample reason. It's nearly impossible to create a peace with someone you hate and don't trust. . More nonsensical moral equivalence talk. I know someone who is Israeli and as far left as you get. She actually believes they can live together under one government and that Israel will not cease to exist once Jews are outnumbered in the voting rolls. If Israelis don't trust the 'other side' it's because since the beginning that other side has engaged in a war to destroy them. First the other Arab nations, then their intermediaries the Palestinians. If Israel had behaved in victory as the Arabs would have, there would be no, or few, Arabs in the P.A. areas. Also, when given a chance to vote democratically, the people of Palestine voted in Hamas, the most exterminationist group possible. And in Arab language press/politics, Fatah isn't exactly acknowleding Israel's right to exist either. And that's not just there, either. This is like sitting down with the aliens in Independence Day. "Peace?" "No peace." Now, over time, a people can change, but I don't know if that is going to happen yet. BTW, a friend from HS had some comments on another's FB page over jihad. Now, my friend is 'moderate' so of course he made the 'right points' but the fact that on a random day after OBL's death that I stumble into the 'internal debate' in Islam tells me something right there. But both he and his family seem too into Israel as an issue, which I take to be representative of the chauvinism inherent therein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 How would we feel if Mexicans made the same protests, with the same violence, on our border? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I just don't understand why these people can't just cohabitate. I (vaguely) know the history behind the conflict between them, which stretches thousands of years, but there has to be some kind of compromise that will end this whole mess. The Brits. Jews and Muslims lived just fine for hundreds of years together. The British empire, colonialism, re-drawing maps, dividing people against each other, the Brits propping up the Saud family to wipe out the Ottomans post WW1. Every modern day problem can be traced back to the British empire and its adventures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Every modern day problem can be traced back to the British empire and its adventures Or it it more a result of it's fall? Problems have a way of reappearing,and peace is fleeting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Or it it more a result of it's fall?Problems have a way of reappearing,and peace is fleeting No its more of a result of the actions they took. Seriously, working with the House of Saud to destroy the Ottoman Empire, who had made some serious reforms in the 1840s? The Brits gave carte blanche to the Wahhabists to destroy a moderating force. The Ottomans outlawed executions for apostasy and eliminated the jizya tax in the 1840s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Oh I agree they erred with the Sauds...but the Ottomans screwed the pooch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 No its more of a result of the actions they took.Seriously, working with the House of Saud to destroy the Ottoman Empire, who had made some serious reforms in the 1840s? The Brits gave carte blanche to the Wahhabists to destroy a moderating force. The Ottomans outlawed executions for apostasy and eliminated the jizya tax in the 1840s That was around WWI....the British sided with the damn Wahhabis because they offered to ambush the Ottomans coming down by train to complete hajj...it screwed us over completely because not long after that, oil was found and the rest is history. Stupid decisions by the British caused a lot of the extremism in the world today all because they decided to side with the Wahhabis instead of letting the Ottoman empire collapse like it was going to. Thanks Britain ---------- Post added May-15th-2011 at 11:26 PM ---------- They were killing Jews there before there was a 1948. And no word of the 800,000 (or was it more) Jews whose property was expropriated and expelled from Arab lands for the crime of being Jewish in a year when a Jewish nation was established in "Dar al-Islam." Plan Dalet says differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Plan Dalet says differently. I am impressed at your reference. Plan Dalet was despicable and quite underreported today. The popular meme of what occurred in 1947 and 48 is almost opposite of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brave Little Toaster Oven Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I am impressed at your reference.Plan Dalet was despicable and quite underreported today. The popular meme of what occurred in 1947 and 48 is almost opposite of reality. Yeah, my Palestinian friends are going crazy at the moment It honestly is despicable and most people know nothing about it...nobody is innocent in this conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 The best solution is for both sides to fight themselves indefinitely. - Military-Industrial Complex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 I just don't understand why these people can't just cohabitate. I (vaguely) know the history behind the conflict between them, which stretches thousands of years, but there has to be some kind of compromise that will end this whole mess. You take religous element of some of this and you may have peace and nations on both sides of this need to quit egging this on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 That, and having foreign entities quit egging on the violence and funding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 That, and having foreign entities quit egging on the violence and funding it. That is what I meant by nations on both sides. I found it rather sidturbing on the right wing boards those claiming the Christian faith were upset by calls to negotiate peace and called for Israel to use violence, in the end no one wins with violence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 This probably doesn't help: Hamas PM: Pray for an end to Israel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 This probably doesn't help: Well if they stuck to praying and quit putting feet to them it wouldn't be much of a issue imo Gonna be a hot summer I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 It looks like recognition for Palistinian statehood is on the UN docket for latter this year. That is not going to be the end of the troubles, maybe not even the beginning of the end. Rather that's going to be another step along the path for what so far has been neverending troubles and turmoil... The Palistinian protests don't help the situation rather they hurt the situation. All bloodshed hurts the situation with Israel and the Arabs and the protests are just more bloodshed. They were always meant as a distraction for the larger protests going on inside of syria against Asad, and it seems they had that effect internationally. We will have to see if the Israeli boogyman is sufficent to focus the syrians on Israel yet again as their domestic dictatorship moves to remain in place by playing on their populations fears.. What really has hurt the Palistinian cause and play for statehood is the unificaiton between Hamas and Fatah which occured over the last few weeks. Forming a joint government with Hamas might have seemed like the natural thing to do because they do rule in Gaza and did win the last Palistinian elections. The problem is they are also a terrorist organization and it gives Israel a powerful argument to ignore the UN resolution on Palistine and just check themselves out. Which if Israel does that, then the UN resolution remains another empty symbolic gesture. I don't think the Arab uprisings help the Palistinian troubles either. It just shows the entire reagion's instability and volitility. Not a great selling feature if you are an Israeli looking to institute peace for your own stability concerns. What's the chinese curse? May you live in interesting times? It's going to get very interesting Sept or Oct of this year for this part of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 How would peaceful protests hurt a cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 That, and having foreign entities quit egging on the violence and funding it. Foreign entities funding Israel and her defense is what made Israel possible. ---------- Post added May-16th-2011 at 11:07 AM ---------- How would peaceful protests hurt a cause? Are you saying the protests yesterday were peaceful? They've got a picture of a bloody dude trying to crawl over raiser wire on the front page of the Washington post. Looks like a human wave of bodies breaking against Israel's walled borders with Israel using lethal force to repel them. If I were an Israeli such actions wouldn't inspire me to take a chance on a comprehensive peace deal. And let's be clear if Israel isn't on board the peace deal goes nowhere and everything gets much worse before it get's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Middle East Conflict Intensifies As Blah Blah Blah, Etc. Etc. MIDDLE EAST—With the Iraq war in its fifth year, the war in Afghanistan in its sixth, and conflict between Israel and the rest of the region continuing unabated for more than half a century, intelligence sources are warning that a new wave of violence in the Middle East may soon blah blah blah, etc. etc., you know the rest.... The U.N. has issued a strongly worded whatever denouncing someone or something presumably having to do with the vicious explosive things that raged across this, or shattered the predawn calm of that, or ripped suddenly through the other, killing umpteen innocent civilians in a Jerusalem bus or Beirut discotheque or Fallujah mosque or whatever it was this time. ... In Israel, Palestinians and Israelis escalated tensions and so on and so on ad infinitum, ad eternum, and some say, ad absurdum, and although Hamas released a statement condemning Israeli forces for the resulting civilian deaths, Israeli officials say the teens were armed with rocket launchers, though it doesn't really matter. Click on the link for the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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