Social Perception of Gender in Music

[Vilandil Tasardur]

The basis for this thread is a little long winded, and a tad hard to follow. Bear with me.

A few of my friends and I were discuss Michael Jackson, and his impact on culture. We all agreed that he was one of the greatest artists (musical) of all time, and were having fun debating where he ranked on the all time list; we were comparing him to the Beatles and Elvis, etc.

One of my friends asked the question, has there ever been a female artist who had the popularity, social impact, and over all success as these groups or artists did? Has a female artist ever touched audiences as widely as these guys did? Elvis and MJ are both known as the Kings of their respective genres; has any female artist ever ben dubbed the Queen, and was it warranted in the same way?

We debated the topic for a while, and realized we couldn't even agree on which woman to make the case for. Madonna perhaps? So this brings me to the purpose of this topic.

Make a non gender specific list, of the greatest artists of all time. It can be a single artist, or it can be a band. But how far down the list do you have to go before the first woman appears on the list, and which female is it? The thread has two purposes: one is to analyze how we perceive female artists, the other is to see who your favorite artists are. I'm curious as to who people have in their top 5. Remember, we're trying to judge mostly on success, social impact, and over all popularity.

For me, I think it goes as follows:

The Beattles

Elvis

Michael Jackson

Frank Sinatra

Louie Armstrong

After that, it gets very mirky for me. I have no idea how long it could go before I add a female to the list, and I don't even have a clue which female artist would be first on my list. What do you guys think?

[Rocky21]

The female "artist" I think is Madonna. Where on the list I have no idea.

[PokerPacker]

How can an all-time list not include the likes of Beethoven?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Female artists - for whatever reason - rarely sell albums at the level male artists do.

The most important female singer of the 20th Centtury is probably Billie Holiday. In a lot of ways, Sinatra was male singer doing a Billie Holiday impression. But Billie never sold albums at the level Sinatra did.

The person who has the best insite into this ever may actually be - wait for it - Gene Simmons. He once said that if you want to sell a lot of records and make a lot of money in the music industry, you need female fans. But if your fanbaseis exclusively female, you are not going to have a long career, because women do not "bond" with musical acts the way men do.

I will buy every Springsteen record that comes out for the rest of my life. I may not listen to any of them more than once, but I will buy them and if lose them in a move, I will buy them again just to have them. Women - by and large - do not do this.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 12:22 PM ----------

How can an all-time list not include the likes of Beethoven?

When are his original recordings go to be available on Itunes?

[Elessar78]

I can't even think of one off the top of my head on par with the ones you mentioned. I like music, but I like MY music so I may not be knowledgeable of women who have been "revolutionary" the way these artists have been.

You also run into the issue that for so long the music industry has been run by men who've acted as gatekeepers. I'm sure there have been many innovative sounds that never made it to the public "ear" because no one knew how to market the sound.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

How can an all-time list not include the likes of Beethoven?

I thought about this My original list included him and Mozart, but I removed them on the basis that I think they are more composers. I find them both brilliant, and had them at 1 and 2. I just meant for the list to include more modern music, that's all.

[PokerPacker]

When are his original recordings go to be available on Itunes?

so then we should redefine "all time" to be "the last few decades"?

[A Walton]

I know Ella Fitzgerald and Nina Simone are in my top 100 of all time

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I can't even think of one off the top of my head on par with the ones you mentioned. I like music, but I like MY music so I may not be knowledgeable of women who have been "revolutionary" the way these artists have been.

You also run into the issue that for so long the music industry has been run by men who've acted as gatekeepers. I'm sure there have been many innovative sounds that never made it to the public "ear" because no one knew how to market the sound.

I totally agree that women were held back in the musical industry. My point was not to say their talent is inferior or anything. I was more asking myself "how far down would I have to go before I placed a chick on my list, and who would she be?"

I really think it would be Madonna, although I know little of Billie Holliday so that skews me a bit. However, I could easily see a list of top 15 or even top 25 without Madonna, and I'm wondering where she would eventually pop up.

so then we should redefine "all time" to be "the last few decades"?

Yeah, my bad. I was really more talking about recording artists, not as much composers. But your point is quite valid.

[Elessar78]

Yeah, there's Madonna. That's a good one. I'd put her in that first list. I wasn't implying that you were implying that, btw.

[Sticksboi05]

Well, Madonna is the first female artist that comes to mind if we're talking about commercial popularity. There's also Aretha Franklin who is considered one of the best ever. Several 60's Motown female groups like the Marvalettes.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If you are talking female recording artists and focussing on the latter part of the 20th Century and you are discussing it solely in terms of sales and cultural impact, there is probably only one candidate.

It's Barbra Streisand.

She's the best selling female artist ever (I think she laps the competition outside of Madonna). She's got a roomful of Oscars, Grammys, and Emmys. And she has devotees that make Kiss or Rush fans seem rational.

From what I can tell, Madonna may have more sales internationally, but she has also been a lot more proflific than Streisand in recent years - when international sales were increasingly more important.

I would say the top five are

1. Streisand

2. Madonna

3. Diana Ross

4. Mariah Carey

5. Celine Dion

Dolly Parton may be in the top ten somewhere.

[Dan T.]

Diana Ross and the Supremes should be mentioned, for record sales if not musical influence. I don't know how they stack up all time. Top 100 anyway.

[Busch1724]

You could say in addition to Madonaa and Aretha the following (but to a lesser degree): Tina Turner, Heart (for a short period of time), and Janis Joplin.

The thing about legends in music is that the most legendary people made their own music. They were artists not performers (a BIG difference), like many females tend to be. Many women don't write their own music, and when they do their success is short lived. Lombardi mentioned the reason why earlier. The reason Madonna sustained for over a decade is that she sold sex and held up looks-wise physically to pull it off, all the while getting people to dress like her.

[Dan T.]

Janet Jackson should be mentioned only because her whole career is based on a great impersonation she does of Michael.

---------- Post added April-18th-2011 at 01:53 PM ----------

If you are talking female recording artists and focussing on the latter part of the 20th Century and you are discussing it solely in terms of sales and cultural impact' date=' there is probably only one candidate.

It's Barbra Streisand.

[/quote']

Babs has an amazing cult following among the gays and middle-aged Jewish women. To me the devotion goes way beyond her actual talent, which is substantial. There's something else there, but I've never figured out what's behind the phenomenon.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Is the discussion sales or impact? I can give you a top ten in each and you won't be able to argue with me, because I know this stuff better than all of you.

So...just tell me what you want an answer to and I will provide it and we will move on with our lives.

[Dan T.]

So...just tell me what you want an answer to and I will provide it and we will move on with our lives.

Start with an explanation of the irrational idol worship of Barbara Streisand. She hasn't performed regularly in 20 years yet would sell out arenas nationwide tomorrow in a heart-beat if she were to announce a concert tour. She was good back in the day, but not so good that gays should get orgasmic and ladies' mah-jong clubs should build shrines to her.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Start with an explanation of the irrational idol worship of Barbara Streisand. She hasn't performed regularly in 20 years yet would sell out arenas nationwide tomorrow in a heart-beat if she were to announce a concert tour. She was good back in the day, but not so good that gays should get orgasmic and ladies' mah-jong clubs should build shrines to her.

I think it was a strange combination of weird looks, unabashed Jewishness, and musical choices. The fact that someone who looked like your bookish cousin could simply will herself into being the biggest star in the world and somehow convince people in Hollywood to cast her as a sex symbol is staggering.

Madonna did largely the same thing. In her youth, you could have walked into any shopping mall in America and found five women more attractive than Madonna who were better singers. She just decided that she was going to be the biggest star in the world and made it happen.

The difference between them and, say, Britney Spears is the fact that I don't think the only decisions Britney ever made involved her marriages. And we saw how that worked out.

I'm a huge fan of artifice as long as it is genuine artiface.

[sean_e_b]

I'll do my best to be the first person to do what I think the OP was wanting.

*I have an iTunes analyzer which I can use to help list my favorite bands (it's fairly accurate)

My iTunes contains:

1197 Artists

55 Genres

At least 151 songs for each year since 1955

Favorite Artists:

Weezer

Neutral Milk Hotel

Beach Boys

of Montreal

Bright Eyes

Arcade Fire

Ozma

Electric Light Orchestra

Beatles

Grandaddy

. . .

. . .

The first female lead group, Rilo Kiley, doesn't appear until number 52. There are no other female leads/artists in my top 100.

[Rocky21]

never mind

[Busch1724]

One not mentioned yet is Mariah Carey...she influenced a huge number of women to change the way they sing or made them think they can sing...mostly for the worse. Her influence like it or not can be seen on American Idol.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

One not mentioned yet is Mariah Carey...she influenced a huge number of women to change the way they sing or made them think they can sing...mostly for the worse. Her influence like it or not can be seen on American Idol.

I mentioned her. I blame her for the fact that every singer has to use melisma now.

[CoolUsernameHere]

Janis Joplin-- how has she not been mentioned? Maybe I missed it.

Ella Fitzgerald and Aretha Franklin would come before her in my list, though.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Janis Joplin-- how has she not been mentioned? Maybe I missed it.

I honestly think Grace Slick is more important by nearly any standard. She sold more records and was a more important figure of the counter culture.

Janis is great but the music world is not exactly filled with homely white female blues singers.

[RedskinFeathers]

Stevie Nicks might be worth mentioning, though Im not saying she deserves to be at the top.

But you are right, most of the top bands/singers are male. I think if you look into the country genre, however, I think there are many more influential females....