(March, 2011) Hey, Mike. You're Losing Me, Man.

[Oldfan]

...you just agreed with me, that fractions and degrees matter. Does that not apply to free agency? you sign a player or two and then you are written off as a reload versus a rebuilding team or do you allow teams to indulge some?

Sign a player or two and no one would notice. It certainly wouldn't elicit comments like this one which is fairly typical on Broncos boards (underlining mine):

WhoIsJohnGalt --- my perception is that Shanny was reluctant to pay rookies from the early rounds huge salaries and focused more on trading down (i.e., quantity of picks over quality of picks) and looking for sleepers and bargains in the later rounds. the Broncos didn't have many high first round picks while Shanny was here and Shanny was always more partial to bringing in experienced free agents to "fill holes" rather than build through the draft anyway, so his drafting strategy fit that philosophy.

i think the Broncos drafts overall during the Shanny years are not too well regarded. they weren't necessarily horrific, they just didn't produce as many impact players as we would have liked. Shanny was always trying to "reload" rather than "rebuild", so the draft didn't seem to be as crucial to the Broncos on field success as it is elsewhere.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=97317

[blindlywewander]

If I had been a skins fan for 65 years, I'd probably throw myself off a building.

Not advice I recommend you take though, Oldfan.

I'm still waiting to see with Shanahan. He inherited a terrible team and there's only so much a coach can do in one off season. I'm happy with the young talent and potential on this team. Guys like bryant and Riley and some others. The mcnabb move was awful and shanny knows it. But I don't think anyone expected greatness from the get-go, and if they did, they were foolish.

I think if we're not at .500 by year three, he's gone. But we were in a bad bad way after zorn. There are no instant fixes in the NFL.

Just hang in there. Take your meds, carry a cell phone everywhere in case you fall, and maybe change the channel in the 4th quarter of skins games for a while - bad for your heart.

[Shanahanigans]

Hey Oldfan,

Me again. Sorry I didn't respond to the last thread but I've been busy Tsunami watching. Anyhow, back to football, no?

I understand your point and why you may be disappointed, but you continually argue my points and others while completely leaving out the context for your supporting data.

You say things like "Mike reloaded in Denver for 10 years"... well, doesn't it make sense? He won back to back championships. The problem wasn't the method. The problem was poor drafting left us depleted of talent after all those players got old and injured. After Elway retired, we still had our Super Bowl Team. Guys like Shannon, Eddie Mac, Rod Smith, et al. He got rid of STEVE A****ER for crying out loud! If that doesn't sound like someone that is continually making tough decisions to improve his team, I don't know what does.

I've mentioned this in my previous post but you continually argue about some "method" that you think matters more than anything. You know what? It's not the method, but it's the talent evaluation per position that builds a team. If you need a safety, take a look at the draft. Will you be in a position to draft a playmaker? No? Then target one in FA as a stop gap until you can draft one and groom under your vet.

A team needs to be built, not by reloading or rebuilding, but is based on the talent you have on staff and the talent that's available to you. The goal is to win, not to stick to some method that may or may not work. Picking up McNabb was a good move in theory. No matter who you wanted as QB for the future, you needed a stop gap until such time as a QB is drafted and groomed which could take up to three years. You classify this as a reload when I do not. Who did you expect to lead the offense while it's being rebuilt? How do new players buy in to a program with a new coach when the method is just to blow up the whole dang thing. You don't think a vet QB would be valuable while Shanahan installs a new system

How do you expect a guy like Trent Williams to excel and learn when you have some nobody behind center only because giving up a draft pick would be considered reload? Just play Jason Campbell? Are you kidding me? He's awful and Shanahan knew it. You got one pick in a future draft for Campbell. Stockingpiling picks? or giving up two? Wouldn't you say that trading for a future draft pick is building for the future? Or would you only say that giving up two picks for McNabb is short sighted? I say that you needed someone behind center other than Jason Campbell. Talent level dictated what Shanahan had to do. Looking at it now, McNabb may or may not have been a mistake. The problem wasn't what you gave up for McNabb. The problem was McNabb himself.

You completely leave out the context of team building (as players and human beings) while speaking of measurable moves and theoretical methods. Each move is calculated and neither you nor I know the exact reasons why a move is made or not made. But without context, your reasoning sounds a little too textbook without much practicality to it.

Thoughts?

[glongest]

Wow a 75 year old on a forum

Redskins fans should be highly encouraged by the 2nd half resurgence of this team, combined with a young talent base of Torian and Banks

The future is now

I must have hibernated for the winter because I missed to 2nd half resurgence.

[Skinsinparadise]

Sign a player or two and no one would notice. It certainly wouldn't elicit comments like this one which is fairly typical on Broncos boards (underlining mine):

That's a person's opinion. I can go back and find old posts of yours that say Jim Zorn is a great coach and ones where you tout the overall work of Vinny Ceratto. Doesn't make it true either. It's fair for you to have that take or me to believe in whatever -- but none of us are football professionals. For me, the key to rebuild is to use the draft. Shanny clearly was ABOVE average in procuring picks. If we want to debate how good he is at drafting, we disagree to a point, but you got a good argument -- a serious back and forth debate on that issue makes sense to me. With all respect, (and i do find your threads entertaining) I think comparing Joe Gibbs to George Allen as for implementing a future is now approach is on point -- but lumping Shanny as a pea in the pod with a similar win now approach seems beyond silly. But that's me. Yes, there are anecdotal points that back your point but there are anecdotal points to back a lot of conflicting stuff -- I can furnish multiple articles (one from even today) that talks up Shanny as a guy who loves using the draft, and adding picks. But again so what.

So I guess we are at an impass. I define rebuilding in LARGE part by keeping draft picks and adding them -- and hopefully drafting well. For you the operative thing seems to be free agency.

[Oldfan]

Shanahanigans: Me again. Sorry I didn't respond to the last thread but I've been busy Tsunami watching. Anyhow, back to football, no?

It's good to have you involved. I'm very interested in your opinions on this.

Much of your previous post had to do with justifying the Mcnabb trade. This is ground well covered in this forum. I'll say only that we disagree completely and that, before the season, I authored threads predicting that Mcnabb would be only a slight improvement over Campbell and that we would be a good big play offense, but fail in ball control and in the red zone. I was right on all counts.

You completely leave out the context of team building (as players and human beings) while speaking of measurable moves and theoretical methods.

I have previously supplied context in this and in earlier threads, but I'll try to bring you up to speed in a quick summary. This is the context:

1. Setting the goal

2. Devising the plan

3. Executing the plan

I was opposed to hiring Mike because my goal for this team was to make it the best organization in the NFL and to hold that position indefinitely. In the previous ten years, Mike had proven himself either unwilling or unable to reach that goal in Denver.

Was he unwilling or unable to build a Broncos dynasty? I think, it's both. I suspect that , like most football coaches, Mike's goal is job security. That suspicion arises from examining his plan. And, that's what we're talking about in this thread, his plan.

Coaches interested more in job security try to avoid losing years. Building a dynasty can involve taking a couple of steps backward in order to make a move to the top. Coaches interested in job security have reload plans. They have have good regular season records and fail in the playoffs (Marty is another example). Mike won championships by adding offense to a team mostly inherited. Once in full charge, he won more games than he lost, but his playoff record was on the same level as the below average Redskins over the same span.

I have Mike pegged as unwilling to build a dynasty, but I also think he's unable. He insists on having 100% control. I break his job down 80/20. The quality of the personnel is 80% of the problem; coaching is 20%. Mike is good at running an offense, poor at planning a defense, and below average in the personnel phase. So, his past performances at Denver show that he was really only good at 10% of his job. Given Mike's insistence on full control, Pat Bowlen did the right thing in firing him.

In this thread, I'm giving up hope for a dynasty. I'm willing to settle for a good win-now plan like we had here in the 70s with George Allen. I think this is a goal that Mike could achieve with a sound plan. With free agency, it's easier to achieve now than in the 70s.

---------- Post added March-12th-2011 at 06:05 AM ----------

SIP: That's a person's opinion. I can go back and find old posts of yours that say Jim Zorn is a great coach and ones where you tout the overall work of Vinny Ceratto. Doesn't make it true either. It's fair for you to have that take or me to believe in whatever -- but none of us are football professionals.

That pride you have in your great memory is unjustified. You can't find old posts of me calling Jim Zorn a great coach or touting Vinny's overall work, but that's beside the point. Fans don't make comments like those I posted when the only basis is a minor percentage of free agents. Broncos fans know Shanahan's methods as well as we know what our front office has done in the past.

For me, the key to rebuild is to use the draft. Shanny clearly was ABOVE average in procuring picks.

We disagree on what's "key." Let's not keep rehashing it.

So I guess we are at an impass. I define rebuilding in LARGE part by keeping draft picks and adding them -- and hopefully drafting well. For you the operative thing seems to be free agency.

Your great memory fails once again. Free agency for me isn't the "operative thing." It's just one of the signs. I claim Shanny was reloading in 2010 based on what he did and didn't do. Here's a repost of some of the signs I look for:

[reload] Did the team trade draft picks for vets?

[reload] Did the team give substantial practice and playing time to its older players and free agent vets?

[reload] Did the team audition young players only after being mathematically from the playoffs?

[rebuild] Did the team team trade vets for draft picks?

[rebuild] Did the team keep its roster free of older vets while auditioning UDFAs and other young players from the offseason until the final game?

These are are general statements allowing for a few exceptions.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

You're just getting old buddy, relax and take a chill pill.

[darrelgreenie]

You think if we draft a QB, that should be taken as a sign he's off the win now thing?

I don't think it's that simple. I think you have to examine every move, even those he doesn't make, and add it all up.

Definitively? No.

But, drafting a rookie QB is at the very least an indicator that we're not expecting to make a run next year.

I think the Mike would expect a rookie QB to need at least 1-2 years of ups and downs and grooming/indoctrination before they're ready to shoulder the load of a passing offense.

So while drafting a rookie isn't a tell tale sign of the direction the team is moving.

I think it would buy at least 1-2 years of re-tooling/re-building.

[Darkstarr]

Old fan to say shanny inherited what he built in Denver is a joke, you either hate the man or just refuse to understand what he did in Denver. He rebuilt A Denver franchise and restored it to glory. He cut or benched "INHERITED" players for unproven talent. He rebuilt the OLine thru draft and FA, Except for sharpe and elway he rebuilt the entire offense. Elway had his best years under shanny. He inherited crap, just plz stop acting like you have any clue as to what he did in Denver. Stop throwing around false statements like he inherited a good team in Denver he did not. He inherited an old declining team.

[Oldfan]

Old fan to say shanny inherited what he built in Denver is a joke, you either hate the man or just refuse to understand what he did in Denver.

Did the possibility occur to you that one of us is simply mistaken?

He rebuilt A Denver franchise and restored it to glory. He cut or benched "INHERITED" players for unproven talent. He rebuilt the OLine thru draft and FA, Except for sharpe and elway he rebuilt the entire offense. Elway had his best years under shanny. He inherited crap, just plz stop acting like you have any clue as to what he did in Denver. Stop throwing around false statements like he inherited a good team in Denver he did not. He inherited an old declining team.

My research, done some time ago, had Mike assuming full control in 1999 (after the Super Bowl years). Before that, the chief responsibility for building the roster belonged to John Beake who had the GM job for about 15 years. I have assumed that Mike had some input into the personnel decisions, as any coach might, before 1999, but he doesn't deserve the full credit or blame until after 1999. If you have links to information to the contrary, please post them.

I also think you are exaggerating when you say "he inherited crap." He inherited a team that was .500 under Wade Phillips over the two previous years (unless you think Wade was a great coach).

Alex Gibbs, who added his ZBS, should also get a lot of praise -- while Mike deserves his share for implementing the scheme.

[Skinsinparadise]

That pride you have in your great memory is unjustified. You can't find old posts of me calling Jim Zorn a great coach or touting Vinny's overall work, but that's beside the point. Fans don't make comments like those I posted when the only basis is a minor percentage of free agents. Broncos fans know Shanahan's methods as well as we know what our front office has done in the past.

Got no pride in a my memory its simply you are tough to forget because you are relentless when you are pushing a point and rarely budge an inch. Most of our initial exchanges involved Zorn. Me shooting him down, you defending him and extolling him. And yeah i know I didn't imagine that. Rereading my previous post on Zorn meant to say "implied" he's a great coach. So my bad there. Yeah I don't of course remember specific words that you and I stated. I remember general content. I am surprised you are backing off Vinny, I recall you defending his ability with the draft more than once. Heck I've defended Vinny as being mediocre with the draft, not the worst GM, and argued with board members on it. It wasn't that long ago, when you were debating me this point some when I trashed the 2008 draft class -- you came back saying among other things that some of his players are still playing in the NFL like Rinehart. I just tried to do a search and I got threads that you started through late 2010, but it wouldn't bring me to posts. But I'll mess with it and see if I can figure it out.

But yeah as you said its incidental to my point. I just used you as fodder for stuff people would read coming on to the Extremeskins board as a fan from another team which doesn't per se represent some absolute truth like lets say your pro Patrick Ramsey thread, and the one where if I recall you said that Zorn's Skins would finish 11-5 and go to the playoffs, and JC would be in the pro bowl. I am not saying any of this to take shots at your predictions, but I don't think your optimism reflected the overall mood of Extremeskins. We are all wrong at times. We are just fans throwing stuff out there. In the same vein, of course, a coach like Shanny who has been in Denver forever is going to have his critics.

We disagree on what's "key." Let's not keep rehashing it. Your great memory fails once again. Free agency for me isn't the "operative thing." It's just one of the signs. I claim Shanny was reloading in 2010 based on what he did and didn't do.

OK, we are back in circles. If you reread my posts where we debated this in another thread a day ago -- I flat out said Shanny reloaded the first year with the Skins. You talk about me being repetitive but that's because you mostly ignore my overriding point which is IMO its sort of a lazy characterization to not to look at someone's overall history as opposed to selectively take whatever fits your argument. Things aren't so simplistic IMO and I explained in detail what i meant by that. I don't have the energy to do so here again. So, I'll give others a chance to keep this dance going if they choose.

[Oldfan]

SIP:*That's a person's opinion

Here's another person's opinion on Shanahan's interest in free agents during his Broncos era -- Pat Bowlen (2008)

Denver724 -- Jan 2008 (quoting PFT article)

---- [Pat Bowlen:] "The lesson in free agency is slowly being learned," Bowlen said. "And I think that we probably learned it as much as anybody. . . . That's for all teams, sort of leveling off now, saying, 'just a minute, our payrolls are over the top, we're taking bigger risks than we thought with some guys and we've got to be a lot more vigilant in how we do it.'"----

--- But we're hardly sold on the notion that Bowlen's views are shared by his colleagues. The problem in Denver is Mike Shanahan the G.M. Though Mike Shanahan the coach has done remarkably well with the impaired talent that Shanahan the G.M. has provided for him, Shanahan the G.M. has squandered Bowlen's money on men not worthy of it. The new CBA has magnified the problem only because it has given Shanahan the G.M. more money to spend on guys who shouldn't be getting it.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=65475

[Mahons21]

OF you're always one of my favorite reads and you're better than that. A PFT rumor-mill link?

And Bowlen is arguing it isn't Shanny's fault, he's arguing against the new agreement that was put in place.

[Oldfan]

OF you're always one of my favorite reads and you're better than that. A PFT rumor-mill link?

And Bowlen is arguing it isn't Shanny's fault, he's arguing against the new agreement that was put in place.

The quote wasn't a rumor, Amigo. PFT was quoting a Boston Paper.

And no, Bowlen wasn't arguing against the CBA. He was moaning against being stung hard in free agency ("I think we learned it as much as anybody") without naming Mike as the stinger.

[PigSkinRodeo]

Hey oldfan. I think your losing me.. You act like it's all over i mean Christ lets let Shanahan do his 5 years or more plan and then go from there before being negative.. I mean hell how many years have we wanted to hear we need a franchise qb and that we need to draft a o-lineman or we need to go younger. Like mike said it doesn't happen over night. But that's what he wants to do and he has done somethings already. . Plus you know a lot of people in this board act as if there the sh*t of knowledge of being a coach/ gm genius. Sadly i don't see anyone in these boards that our any well known coach in any pro profession. But other then that yes it's been some really hard times for us skins fans for the past decade or more.. I understand.. But ask youself when was the last time you heard a coach actually pointing out the problems that us fans have know for sometime and have never been addressed till Shanahan/ Allen got here. The team will get younger... Yeah its not going to happen in one season or 2... We will get younger every year and if there our some free agents that add depth or something we can use to help the team we'll get them.. But hey people you really have to start facing the facts that we have people that know there alot of holes on our team and we as fans need to understand that allen and shanahan didn't walk in to a very talented team.. We have some key players on our team we need to build around but that is it. Alot of people thought when we got Allen and Shanahan that we were going to playoff and beyond they had some kool-aid if you ask me. When Shanahan got here the first thing he said was that his first year was his evaluation year on players and don't expect alot for a season or 2. I right now would be happy with 8-8 next year 2011season and the year after that 3 or 4 games with wins added. We cant fix every issue in one year... I feel that he does want a long tern solution for this organization not a short one.. So ride the wave out and see what mike can do with in his 5 years.. Then after that your not happy then hit the fan..

[grantarchy]

As someone who lives in Denver, the general feeling towards Mike went something like this: revered as an offensive genius around the SB years ... to his rep taking major hits for his questionable drafts (famously Maurice Clarett) ... to being somewhat to very redeemed in his later drafts. There was a sense in the city that with B Marsh and Cutler that something good was being built, but there were one too many years of a strong start followed by late season collapses, with the final year feeling like a final straw kind of thing. Unfortunately he never got a chance to finish what he had begun and McD ripped it all apart, earning him permanent status on the Denver Most Wanted list.

I disagree that Shanahan was "unwilling" to build a dynasty by being afraid to tear a team down in order to build it. If that were true, he never would have replaced Jake Plummer who had a great record to that point with Jay Cutler, a decision that he caught a lot of **** for at the time. If anything, I think that Shanahan probably was more willing to take risks in that regard than most other teams. When players no longer performed, he got rid of them (which he did this year too). Even players in their prime, Portis being a good example, he was willing to move to make the team better, and for the most part that trade worked beautifully for Denver.

Personally I don't get all the criticisms of Shanahan. Yes, he took a shot on McNabb and like a lot of people I question that. But he did the same thing here in Denver with Plummer, who was less accomplished than McNabb and although there were no Superbowls, Plummer filled in more than adequately. Most people here would love to have Shanny back. I was ecstatic that we signed him. I think he'll do well. He's a workaholic and spent his year off studying the game that some people bizarrely suggest passed him by in a single year. In watching the Skins when I could, I thought the team overall looked much more crisp and explosive. Good signs after so many years where it was so incredibly embarrasing to watch our vanilla, bumbling offense.

[KokoMike]

Hey oldfan. I think your losing me.. You act like it's all over i mean Christ lets let Shanahan do his 5 years or more plan and then go from there before being negative.. I mean hell how many years have we wanted to hear we need a franchise qb and that we need to draft a o-lineman or we need to go younger. Like mike said it doesn't happen over night. But that's what he wants to do and he has done somethings already. . Plus you know a lot of people in this board act as if there the sh*t of knowledge of being a coach/ gm genius. Sadly i don't see anyone in these boards that our any well known coach in any pro profession. But other then that yes it's been some really hard times for us skins fans for the past decade or more.. I understand.. But ask youself when was the last time you heard a coach actually pointing out the problems that us fans have know for sometime and have never been addressed till Shanahan/ Allen got here. The team will get younger... Yeah its not going to happen in one season or 2... We will get younger every year and if there our some free agents that add depth or something we can use to help the team we'll get them.. But hey people you really have to start facing the facts that we have people that know there alot of holes on our team and we as fans need to understand that allen and shanahan didn't walk in to a very talented team.. We have some key players on our team we need to build around but that is it. Alot of people thought when we got Allen and Shanahan that we were going to playoff and beyond they had some kool-aid if you ask me. When Shanahan got here the first thing he said was that his first year was his evaluation year on players and don't expect alot for a season or 2. I right now would be happy with 8-8 next year 2011season and the year after that 3 or 4 games with wins added. We cant fix every issue in one year... I feel that he does want a long tern solution for this organization not a short one.. So ride the wave out and see what mike can do with in his 5 years.. Then after that your not happy then hit the fan..

Oldfan may not have 5 years to wait. I have paid for season tickets for 34 years. You are 30 years old. You can wait. Seriously, I think it is fair to say that the Redskins have exhibited bad management every year since Dan bought the team. One good year of great management could produce a Super Bowl. 8 - 8 management doesn't cut it.

[Oldfan]

PigSkinRodeo --So ride the wave out and see what mike can do with in his 5 years.. Then after that your not happy then hit the fan.

Did you see the movie "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray where he keeps waking up to the same day in Punxsutawney? That's what I feel like each time the Redskins introduce a new regime. I've seen this before. I don't need to wait five years to see how it turns out.

I'm flexible. What I'm saying is, "Okay, if you aren't willing to give me a plan to build a dynasty, like Bill Walsh, then at least give me a plan that wins now, like George Allen's. Don't give me a Shanahan Broncos plan aimed at 9-7 and one and done in the playoffs every other year. I'm not asking much.

[Skinsinparadise]

Here's another person's opinion on Shanahan's interest in free agents during his Broncos era -- Pat Bowlen (2008)

I have said multiple times, that for me its almost all about the draft. So am not sure what counter point this is to what I've been saying. I am practically a broken record beating to the death, that IMO its primarily about collecting draft picks. Find me a quote from Bowlen that talks about Shanny burning through draft picks and not caring about finding good young players for the future and you'll get my attention. I just don't agree with you about the degree of FA's detriment to rebuilding. To me if i had to give a number, rebuilding is 80% about the draft. I am not going to obsess over what IMO is 20% of the drill if that. As I have pointed out in multiple posts, plenty of teams that are considered smart and future oriented, love free agency, the NY Giants, Eagles, Patriots, etc. But we've covered this plenty -- we just see what constitutes rebuilding differently.

[Oldfan]

grantarchy -- As someone who lives in Denver, the general feeling towards Mike went something like this: revered as an offensive genius around the SB years ... to his rep taking major hits for his questionable drafts (famously Maurice Clarett) ... to being somewhat to very redeemed in his later drafts.

The 2006 and 2008 drafts produced six players for the offense, none for the defense. Other than that the drafts during Mike's reign were below average. As for free agents, Mike made the same mistakes the Skins did -- overpaying for Big Names who didn't perform. See Bowlen's quote on that posted earlier.

I disagree that Shanahan was "unwilling" to build a dynasty by being afraid to tear a team down in order to build it. If that were true, he never would have replaced Jake Plummer who had a great record to that point with Jay Cutler, a decision that he caught a lot of **** for at the time.

Plummer's performance was lousy. Mike had nothing to lose by replacing him and hoping he could catch lightning in a bottle with Cutler. This was ONE move. You're trying to build a mountain of argument from a molehill of evidence.

In watching the Skins when I could, I thought the team overall looked much more crisp and explosive. Good signs after so many years where it was so incredibly embarrasing to watch our vanilla, bumbling offense.

Your eyes deceived you. Football Outsiders does the most intelligent ranking (DVOA).

2009 Skins offense: #21

2010 Skins offense #25

The 2010 unit went three and out far more often than our 2009 crew and they were considerably less effective in the Red Zone until Grossman replaced McNabb. The 2010 unit was better than 2009 in one respect: big pass plays.

---------- Post added March-12th-2011 at 07:48 PM ----------

I have said multiple times, that for me its almost all about the draft.

After the good drafts in 2006 and 2008 for the offense, nine starters on the 2008 offense were draft picks. On defense only three starters were draft picks 3 + 9 = 12, 12/22 = 56%

[grantarchy]

The 2006 and 2008 drafts produced six players for the offense, none for the defense. Other than that the drafts during Mike's reign were below average. As for free agents, Mike made the same mistakes the Skins did -- overpaying for Big Names who didn't perform. See Bowlen's quote on that posted earlier.

Yeah, Bowlen also hired Josh McDaniels, so what weight am I supposed to put on his assessment of free agent hires?

Regarding the draft -- a very good six players: 2006 alone yielded Cutler and Marshall and Scheffler, and Elvis Dumerville who is a top defensive player. Darrent Williams (CB) from the 2005 draft was also showing great promise before he was shot.

Plummer's performance was lousy. Mike had nothing to lose by replacing him and hoping he could catch lightning in a bottle with Cutler. This was ONE move. You're trying to build a mountain of argument from a molehill of evidence.

The Broncos were 7-4 when Shanahan replaced Plummer, so he actually had a lot to lose. You are also the one who said that Shanahan was "unwilling" to build a dynasty. Your evidence is? Less than a molehill.

Your eyes deceived you. Football Outsiders does the most intelligent ranking (DVOA).

2009 Skins offense: #21

2010 Skins offense #25

The 2010 unit went three and out far more often than our 2009 crew and they were considerably less effective in the Red Zone until Grossman replaced McNabb. The 2010 unit was better than 2009 in one respect: big pass plays.

I just want to get it correct, but you're saying that Zorn's offense looked crisper and more explosive than Shanahan's? I am not talking stats, I am just talking a general feel of the flow of the offense.

[Mahons21]

The quote wasn't a rumor, Amigo. PFT was quoting a Boston Paper.

Never said it was a rumor, only that a PFT rumor-mill link doesn't hold a lot of credibility.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

That's the exact link.

And no, Bowlen wasn't arguing against the CBA. He was moaning against being stung hard in free agency ("I think we learned it as much as anybody") without naming Mike as the stinger.

"Cash is an issue in the National Football League," Bowlen told the Rocky Mountain News. "I think it's pretty common knowledge our last labor agreement is not our smartest move, and that we're way beyond, and I'm not talking about just the Denver Broncos, I'm talking about just the league in general . . . we being we collectively, 32 teams, can't live with this deal."

[Slacky McSlackAss]

...Senility is a *****

[Ashburn Dave]

Screw the draft: If the "future is now," then George Allen's plan is the way to go. Trade those picks for vets who fit the Fletcher Prototype. Exceptions: Find your RB and your return man in the draft.

Don't be screwing with my draft just because you're a little closer to 6 feet under than I.

[veteranskinsfan]

Oldfan- I think the world of London Fletcher. I hope he can play at least 3 more years for us while we try to shore up the rest of the defense and offense. I like your idea of searching for London-type players who have great character, strong work ethic and a willingness to be team players. When the Skins first hired Shanny I had my doubts about him interfering with the GM duties and then when this season was over I had even more doubts about both Shanahans. But tonight I listened to the Channel 4 playback of the recent Redskins show and heard clips from both coordinators who had some good observations. So this year coming up will be huge for the coaches and especially our head coach. He will either earn the respect of the majority of our fan base or lose the respect of the fan base depending how he makes football decisions on the draft, on trades, and on running the team during the season. We simply cannot go 6-10 this season.