Bat~man Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Maybe. But, we now have different guys doing those things. Do you consider Vinny and Bruce Allen to be the same? I don't. When you analyze the NFL, 90% of putting a good team on the field, is drafting or trading for a stud QB. Rodgers, Brees, P.Manning, Brady, Rothliesberger. This is what wins SBs these days. Every coach we had fell into the Vinny way of doing things. Gibbs included. Just because the coach changes again doesn't mean it will all of a sudden work out. Doesn't matter to me if Bruce does it or if Vinny was still here doing it... if the formula is the same, it won't produce different results. I'm not against trading for a Stud QB, but we already tried... we traded for McNabb and for whatever reason, it was a huge failure. Gibbs did draft JC , and , who knows.. maybe Gibbs could have got more out of him... maybe not. Looking around the league, I don't see a single QB I want to trade for, well a single QB that would be available. If we had a scratch, then a band-aid would cover it just fine... band-aid meaning trading for a player or two. We have tons of scratches, some compound fractures... maybe even a coach with a perma-concussion... we need more than a band-aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 -Oldfan I hope after last season that he's off the win now strategy. How we address the QB position will be a good indicator of which direction we're going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 EH, no thanks. We have been trading picks for years and that's a big reason why we are dooky right now. If you can't look around the NFL and see what formula is successful then it isn't really worth a debate. We may never be good again, but if we are... it certainly isn't going to be from doing the same things we have been doing for ages. If winning now is their goal, George Allen's plan plus free agency is the way to go. In our more recent past, we had piss poor plans and piss poor execution. I'm suggesting a better plan to win now, but it will still take people who can execute the plan.---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 10:23 AM ---------- -OldfanI hope after last season that he's off the win now strategy. How we address the QB position will be a good indicator of which direction we're going. You think if we draft a QB, that should be taken as a sign he's off the win now thing? I don't think it's that simple. I think you have to examine every move, even those he doesn't make, and add it all up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flock53 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I'm getting weak and the load of crap keeps piling up. <sigh> I actually watched/followed the Texans during the Spurrier years. It took Gibbs 2/0 to draw me back in. I am still a fan but I like watching GOOD football. ---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 11:28 AM ---------- Every coach we had fell into the Vinny way of doing things. Gibbs included. Just because the coach changes again doesn't mean it will all of a sudden work out. Doesn't matter to me if Bruce does it or if Vinny was still here doing it... if the formula is the same, it won't produce different results. I'm not against trading for a Stud QB, but we already tried... we traded for McNabb and for whatever reason, it was a huge failure. Gibbs did draft JC , and , who knows.. maybe Gibbs could have got more out of him... maybe not. Looking around the league, I don't see a single QB I want to trade for, well a single QB that would be available. If we had a scratch, then a band-aid would cover it just fine... band-aid meaning trading for a player or two. We have tons of scratches, some compound fractures... maybe even a coach with a perma-concussion... we need more than a band-aid. My plan was to trade for BIG BEN when he got suspended. Tomlin is so enamored at pumping up Dixon, its crazy. We would have had to go w/ Rex for 1st 4 games+ as Ben learned the system. Would have traded 2 future 1s after last years draft, so we would still have gotten Trent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Every coach we had fell into the Vinny way of doing things. Gibbs included. Just because the coach changes again doesn't mean it will all of a sudden work out. Doesn't matter to me if Bruce does it or if Vinny was still here doing it... if the formula is the same, it won't produce different results. I'm not against trading for a Stud QB, but we already tried... we traded for McNabb and for whatever reason, it was a huge failure. Gibbs did draft JC , and , who knows.. maybe Gibbs could have got more out of him... maybe not. Looking around the league, I don't see a single QB I want to trade for, well a single QB that would be available. I agree that the Skins attempted to buy a stud last year, and it failed. JC failed also. As did Ramsey. And look at the results. My point is that no strategy of drafting or FA will result in success unless you have that QB position nailed down. Sure there are exceptions, but in a vast majority this is the case. So saying that Vinny's way failed or Allen's way is failing is really moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I don't get these threads.You are telling me that you managed to stick it out during the Spurier, Zorn...and let's face it, entire Snyderatto eras, and all of a sudden NOW you are gonna bail on the Skins because of this or that? I don't buy it, sorry. Levi...you're typically...well....crazy. But this post was....well....sane. OF - I appreciate your posts, and reading some of your stories from the good old days are just AWESOME. But damn, you are just so jaded. You CAN do both, build through the draft and free agency to BOTH win now AND build a future core. Mike S is doing that better than anyone we've had in a decade. Outside of the McNabb move, name another move he's made that didn't improve our team. I'll wait. Can't wait for the success years for you to finally have to admit he absolutely knew what he was doing. And yes, if we HAVEN'T had a tremendous amount of success within the next three seasons (providing Danny boy stays patient), then I'll be right here to eat some crow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Every coach we had fell into the Vinny way of doing things. Gibbs included. Just because the coach changes again doesn't mean it will all of a sudden work out. Doesn't matter to me if Bruce does it or if Vinny was still here doing it... if the formula is the same, it won't produce different results. I'm not against trading for a Stud QB, but we already tried... we traded for McNabb and for whatever reason, it was a huge failure. Gibbs did draft JC , and , who knows.. maybe Gibbs could have got more out of him... maybe not. Looking around the league, I don't see a single QB I want to trade for, well a single QB that would be available. If we had a scratch, then a band-aid would cover it just fine... band-aid meaning trading for a player or two. We have tons of scratches, some compound fractures... maybe even a coach with a perma-concussion... we need more than a band-aid. I think you are missing a vital point here: There are two phases in reaching any goal: the planning phase, and the execution phase. We can't look at Skins history and say "We tried that plan and it didn't work." No roster building plan will work if the team doesn't have people who are good at evaluating talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat~man Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Big Ben is a different story. A good, young, SB champion QB is rarely ever available... if he is, then I think the situation changes. I don't think Big Ben was ever seriously available. I'm sorry oldfan, this isn't the NFL George Allen was in, it is much different. What coach has taken over anywhere and said he didn't want to "win now"? I don't understand how doing the same things we have been doing will get us different results.... just because we follow a different mold? It doesn't work... there is another mold to follow when you want to win in todays NFL and it starts with the draft. FAs aren't the entire cake, rather just the icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I actually watched/followed the Texans during the Spurrier years. It took Gibbs 2/0 to draw me back in. I am still a fan but I like watching GOOD football. So, during the 2002-2003 seasons, you followed a 9-23 team as opposed to a 12-20 team in your quest for "good football"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett81 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Wow a 75 year old on a forum Yeah it's quite amazing...I bet he plays COD Black Ops too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 ...OF - ... You CAN do both, build through the draft and free agency to BOTH win now AND build a future core... The Skins are in a competition with 31 other teams. If our goal is to be number one, it won't be done with a plan that doesn't make sacrifices. You can't fill a roster spot with a Joey Galloway and give it to a young prospect at the same time. You can't trade a draft pick for a veteran and use it to draft a young prospect at the same time. You can't keep a veteran near the end of his career without forfeiting the draft pick he could being in trade.---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 10:48 AM ---------- Yeah it's quite amazing...I bet he plays COD Black Ops too Nah. I come here to debate you guys. You know, a little light exercise for the brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett81 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Unless John Elway and Terrell Davis clones walk through the door tomorrow, Shanny will be eternally convinced that his scheme works. I'm pretty sure you don't realize this or you wouldn't have posted the way you did, but mentioning Terrell Davis isn't helping you're point that Shanny is just full of himself...which is what I'm taking from your sarcastically undertoned post. I say this because TD was a huge star coming out of college right? No. He was an All-American and set school records for yards and touchdowns right? No. He tore up the combine and pre-draft process to get him drafted early right? No. have a read... "In 1995, newly appointed Denver Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan drafted Davis in the 6th Round of the 1995 NFL Draft. Davis entered training camp as the sixth string tailback and was a long shot to make the team. He managed to impress the Broncos coaching staff after his second pre-season game, most notably with a crushing hit as a member of special teams. Davis kept improving with each pre-season game and was promoted to starting running back for the season's opening game.[1] With Davis at running back, the Broncos possessed the potent running attack that they had previously lacked. Davis started 14 games during the 1995 season, carrying the ball 237 times, averaging 4.7 yards per run, and scoring eight touchdowns. Davis finished his season with a total of 1,117 rushing yards, becoming the lowest drafted player to ever gain over 1,000 yards rushing in his rookie season. In 1996, Davis signed a lucrative new five-year contract with the Broncos that was worth $6.8 million. That season, he rushed for a total of 1,538 yards and set a Denver Broncos record for rushing touchdowns with 13. The Broncos ended that season with a 13–3 record, tied with the Green Bay Packers for the best in the NFL that year." Terrell Davis Wiki Another interesting note about TD... "At Long Beach State, Davis joined the football team that was coached by former Washington Redskins coach George Allen. The coaches didn't think he was ready to play, so he was redshirted his freshman year in order to give him an extra year of eligibility. Davis never got to play a real game for coach Allen, because Allen died after the end of 1990 season." John Elway however was the Golden Child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Are you kidding me. The best teams in the NFL use both the draft and free agency. Just take a look at the Patriots and the Jets for gods sake and Oldfan, get off your high horse and be patient with Mike. He IS building the team the right way. Everyone makes mistakes along the way. You're preaching patience? My comments are based on the 10 years when Mike had full control in Denver and his one year here. That's 11 years of evidence. Mike reloaded every year in Denver. He reloaded last year. I don't believe he will rebuild this season. This team needs rebuilt. If he hasn't the patience to build toward a dynasty, then he can rebuild it to win now ala George Allen (which should be easier to do in this free agency era). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaga Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 If anyone wants to quit being a fan, fine. Just do it. No need to be a drama queen about it. The only thing worse than a quitter is a quitter that tries to make dramatic exit. At least that is how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 The Skins are in a competition with 31 other teams. If our goal is to be number one, it won't be done with a plan that doesn't make sacrifices. You can't fill a roster spot with a Joey Galloway and give it to a young prospect at the same time. You can't trade a draft pick for a veteran and use it to draft a young prospect at the same time. You can't keep a veteran near the end of his career without forfeiting the draft pick he could being in trade. While I agree with portion of that, my angle is different. It's about balance, and doing it better than the other 31 teams competing. You continue to find youth that can contribute, but balance it with veterans that are placeholders until that youth is ready. JG was nothing more than that, a placeholder, and I think we can all agree, we're better off if he never again sees the field as he's just past a point of being any good on the field. What we don't know is what goes on in the locker room and what kind of positive influence he may have played in the development of some of the younger talent a la AA and Austin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett81 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Nah. I come here to debate you guys. You know, a little light exercise for the brain. Sure sure...don't worry I won't tell anybody your COD name..."OldfanXtremeskins"...but did you have to make it so obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 If anyone wants to quit being a fan, fine. Just do it. No need to be a drama queen about it. The only thing worse than a quitter is a quitter that tries to make dramatic exit. At least that is how I see it. Thread title aside, OF is bringing up some very interesting points to debate. We can probably go without the "if you want to leave, just leave" diversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I actually watched/followed the Texans during the Spurrier years. It took Gibbs 2/0 to draw me back in. I am still a fan but I like watching GOOD football.---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 11:28 AM ---------- . At least your honest and admit you're a fairweather bandwagoner. You've got that going for you...which is nice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 This guy fits in just about anywhere, he comes up after searching fan card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 ...I'm sorry oldfan, this isn't the NFL George Allen was in, it is much different...Free agency makes it easier to win now than in the 70s. What coach has taken over anywhere and said he didn't want to "win now"? I don't understand how doing the same things we have been doing will get us different results....You don't understand how better execution of a better plan can make a difference?---------- Post added March-11th-2011 at 11:20 AM ---------- While I agree with portion of that, my angle is different. It's about balance, and doing it better than the other 31 teams competing. You continue to find youth that can contribute, but balance it with veterans that are placeholders until that youth is ready. JG was nothing more than that, a placeholder, and I think we can all agree, we're better off if he never again sees the field as he's just past a point of being any good on the field. What we don't know is what goes on in the locker room and what kind of positive influence he may have played in the development of some of the younger talent a la AA and Austin.I think your approach is fine once the team has a solid core of starters. Our team isn't in that position. The quickest way to build that core depends on whether you are dynasty building or building to win by reloading for the next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I'm pretty sure you don't realize this or you wouldn't have posted the way you did, but mentioning Terrell Davis isn't helping you're point that Shanny is just full of himself...which is what I'm taking from your sarcastically undertoned post.Basically you are saying that Shanny created TD. I agree to a point, coaches certainly can influence the careers of players. Fine. Still does not take away from my point that Shanny realized his biggest success with a HOF QB (which he inherited) and HOF RB. Outside of that he has shown to be a good coach, nothing more. He has 1 playoff win without Elway and TD in 13 seasons. You tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 A return man? What, are we giving up on Banks? He's trying to gain weight, give him a few months I was going to say that. And don't we have a LT already? Why do we need 2? And last time I checked, OJ Otagwe was signed to be the FS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 I was going to say that. And don't we have a LT already? Why do we need 2? And last time I checked, OJ Otagwe was signed to be the FS.I identified the positions. I didn't list core players on board at all --in order to avoid debate on who was and who wasn't qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I identified the positions. I didn't list core players on board at all --in order to avoid debate on who was and who wasn't qualified. OK. I read that earlier, but had already posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I think your approach is fine once the team has a solid core of starters. Our team isn't in that position. The quickest way to build that core depends on whether you are dynasty building or building to win by reloading for the next season. Perhaps. At this point I'll just agree to disagree. I, being an eternal homer, think we actually do have a good portion of that core coming into place - a la Torain, TW and AA on offense, Banks as the return man of the future, and Rak, Landry, Atogwe on defense with a lot of great role players beginning to step up. But then again, I'm also that guy that thinks with a few free agent signings, drafting my Mizzou product Gabbert, adding a few key pieces in the draft (C, NT, internal OL), we're headed to the paloffs. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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