DFP - Lions DT Ndamukong Suh gives Albert Haynesworth a plug

[brettstr]

Does anyone remember the J.Schroeder trade with Oakland. Well, we received a pro bowl player in exchange for (at the time) a strong armed quaterback who a lot of teams felt was going to be a star in the league. At the time we were not discussing bringing in players that were less than Jay was and would not have even thought about it.

Giving away good players for a little or nothing or a draft picki.e 2, (unless it high) 3,4 5 6 that may not pan out is just dumb...really...really dumb.

Find a trade partner for what you want at equal value and do the deal. there is no need to sell the baby beacuse it whine too much. Put a bottle in his mouth (Hayneworth) and shut him up.

I don't think management is acting stupid anymore, do you?

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

If I was on the coaching staff in Detroit, I would keep Suh as far away for that malcontented, no hearted, lazy player as possible.

[Hitman21ST]

Some players are a product of the system they play in. Take Albert for instance, he has only shown a small amount of success in the 3-4, they said he dominated in the 4-3, not so did well in the 4-3. Other players like Ray Lewis show they can dominate in any system. Suh is the product of the system he plays in. Time will tell if he is a Ray Lewis with that great intangible. When offenses begin to figure him out, New York lights are out, bet on it.

So then I guess Patrick Willis, Landry, and Polamalu are overrated too, since they are products of their defensive systems?

[brettstr]

So then I guess Patrick Willis, Landry, and Polamalu are overrated too, since they are products of their defensive systems?

What do you think?

Why don't you name a few more who did absolutely nothing on a different team, different scheme, but were products of the system and dominated.

You and I may need to talk about this more over a beer and a glass of water since you are so intense.

Ohhh and Adam Archuchoke.....for an example

[Hitman21ST]

What do you think?

Why don't you name a few more who did absolutely nothing on a different team, different scheme, but were products of the system and dominated.

You and I may need to talk about this more over a beer and a glass of water since you are so intense.

Ohhh and Adam Archuchoke.....for an example

Your original argument doesn't make sense, so I just figured I wouldn't have mine make sense. Haynesworth and Suh are 4-3 DT, so of course they'll do better in a 4-3 scheme than they would in a 3-4. Just like a 3-4 Nose Tackle will do better in a 3-4 over a 4-3, and the 3-4 DE doesn't do well in a 4-3. Different scheme/assignments/responsibilities. Would you consider Warren Sapp "Overrated" because he was a "product of the system?" He played one position: 4-3 DT, yet he's widely considered one of the best DT in NFL history.

[DiscoBob]

Let him go for whatever they will pay....see if you can get "escalators" included that bump the pick if he plays well next season...

[brettstr]

Your original argument doesn't make sense, so I just figured I wouldn't have mine make sense. Haynesworth and Suh are 4-3 DT, so of course they'll do better in a 4-3 scheme than they would in a 3-4. Just like a 3-4 Nose Tackle will do better in a 3-4 over a 4-3, and the 3-4 DE doesn't do well in a 4-3. Different scheme/assignments/responsibilities. Would you consider Warren Sapp "Overrated" because he was a "product of the system?" He played one position: 4-3 DT, yet he's widely considered one of the best DT in NFL history.

Your sense does not seem to make cents.

You totally missed my examples in Adam Archokulata (Choked) and the Ray Lewis an example where he dominated in 2 different schemes. Warren Sapp wont be in the Hall anytime soon. Ray will get in as soon as he steps down.

You should be ashamed of yourself for such non sense as to make that comparison.

Suhey has done nothing to prove he is going to be a Hall of Famer except do what he is paid to do.

Stop defending these million dollar babies and giving them Kudos before they earn them. Don't you realize they ask for the kind of money that makes the tickets and food and other things associated with sports go up because fans make them Gods. Quit,.

A ball player is a ball player, does not matter what scheme, division, position or state you play in. If you can ball you can ball. plain and simple

[DavidGQ]

Suh is a great pick for the Lions. This guy will be a dominant force for years to come for them. Guess all players and coaches are over rated then....LOL

As for Albert, no less than 3rd. If teams don't want to give up more, then make him play another year with us or make His agent works harder

[Hitman21ST]

A ball player is a ball player, does not matter what scheme, division, position or state you play in. If you can ball you can ball. plain and simple

Suh is a ballplayer. Bronko Nagurski Trophy, Chuck Bednarik Award, Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy as a Senior. 10 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble, 1 INT, 1 TD, Pro Bowl and ALL PRO as a rookie. Suh can ball, plain and simple.

[CurseReversed]

Imagine this scenario!

We keep Al no matter what unless we get some amazing 2nd round offer or something. Then when the reg season starts coming around and Al is forced to come in here and actually pretend to be part of the team, he will be so damn frustrated and embarassed that he will be forced to play the best football of his life to get someone to notice him enough to give up the goods to get him.

Then we not only get some good play out of him but a great pick.

Ahh what a dream...

[wildbill1952]

For McNabb or Haynesworth, you've got to go with picks based on how well and how often they play. 50% of snaps is a clear third round pick. Post season awards bring you more, more than 50 tackles or 6 sacks and you have a second round pick. Pro Bowl as alternate or better and you have a first round pick. Don't just give them away for 4th round picks. A fourh round pick seldom sees the field during the regular season and with out scouting deartment, probably never.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I don't think the Lions would pay much for his services. They really don't need a starter.

If they did make a move, then I'm guessing they'd only use AH on roughly 20-25 snaps per. And it would give them a ton of flexibility with their rotation, say kicking out Suh to DE for a handful of snaps.

Considering the situation and prior trades, I'm guessing a 5th is all they'd offer.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

The Detroit DL + a motivated Haynesworth would be scary good. If I'm Detroit I'm seriously considering a 2nd round pick if I can talk to Fat Albert and get an idea that he wants to be in the scheme. Unfortunately that's just the way it's gonna be with him.

The guy claiming Suh is overrated is just trying to look smarter than the rest of us. There is very little to be seen that shows Suh as a bad player, he had a very good college career and a damn good rookie debut. This guy is just trying to go out on a limb so in 3-4 years IF Suh doesn't pan out, he'll be able to say "I told you so." And the argument "Well he doesn't play a different position"....:doh:

[brettstr]

Suh is a ballplayer. Bronko Nagurski Trophy, Chuck Bednarik Award, Lombardi Award and Outland Trophy as a Senior. 10 Sacks, 1 Forced Fumble, 1 INT, 1 TD, Pro Bowl and ALL PRO as a rookie. Suh can ball, plain and simple.

The little panda bear is cute. You are ranting about nothing. read the post again. blah, blah blah.

Hate Master of the Universe

---------- Post added January-18th-2011 at 09:46 AM ----------

I don't think the Lions would pay much for his services. They really don't need a starter.

If they did make a move, then I'm guessing they'd only use AH on roughly 20-25 snaps per. And it would give them a ton of flexibility with their rotation, say kicking out Suh to DE for a handful of snaps.

Considering the situation and prior trades, I'm guessing a 5th is all they'd offer.

Come back from the light. That scene is crazy. 5th are u serious?

---------- Post added January-18th-2011 at 09:51 AM ----------

The Detroit DL + a motivated Haynesworth would be scary good. If I'm Detroit I'm seriously considering a 2nd round pick if I can talk to Fat Albert and get an idea that he wants to be in the scheme. Unfortunately that's just the way it's gonna be with him.

The guy claiming Suh is overrated is just trying to look smarter than the rest of us. There is very little to be seen that shows Suh as a bad player, he had a very good college career and a damn good rookie debut. This guy is just trying to go out on a limb so in 3-4 years IF Suh doesn't pan out, he'll be able to say "I told you so." And the argument "Well he doesn't play a different position"....:doh:

The guy claiming? I never said bad player, I said overated player.

"the argument he doesn't play a different position, doh" That's helmet talk on the Little yellow bus .

I said overated and thats what I meant..argument over. Lets go have a beer and some water..ok

[Chicken Fried]

As long as they give up some decent picks...although we always seem to play the Lions and their DL would be nearly unstoppable with Suh, Haynesworth and Vanden Bosch

Not with our OL being Heyer, Rabach, and Lichtensteiger though.

[ouvan59]

Suhey is overated. Watch. You willl see

Agreed. He was nothing without Walter Payton.

Now, Ndamukong Suh is an absolute stud. Watch. You will see.

[Rudechain]

Still trying to figure out how you can say he is over rated? A dominant defensive tackle in college winning all kinds of awards. When he goes on to the NFL, he basically dominated his position in a 4-3 scheme.

As a high school player in Grant High School of Portland he was awarded Parade all America honors and the 2004 Interscholastic League Defensive Player of the year. ( they generally give out awards on results not potential)

Rivals.com considered him a 4 star recruit and he was considered one of the top college prospects at his position.

So then this guy ( over rated as he is) goes on to college at Nebraska. ( Just a little note, Nebraska does not just want anybody off the street to play football for them. They need to play competitive football and win games. So over rated players generally are vetted out quickly)

So his freshman (2005) year Suh played two games and was injured. ( medically red-shirted)

In 2006, he played all the games and won all big 12 honors from the Sporting News despite coming off the bench. ( never knew an over-rated player coming off the bench. Usually a player is over-rated when viewed as a starter)

Then 2008 rolls around and the guy leads the team in tackles. ( not an easy thing to do for an interior defensive lineman. especially an over-rated one) He also won All Big 12 first team honors.

His senior year in 2009 Suh won more awards ( MVP for the Big 12 Championship game) He also was part #1 ranked scoring defense that year. Was picked as consensus First Team All American, First team All Big 12 honors, Associated Press National player of the year, Big 12 Defensive player of the year, Defensive lineman of the year and a finalist for the Heisman.

So just by looking at this guys history, he has always risen to the top. The onset of his college career called for some adjustments and judging by the way he began winning awards it shows that he seems to have done that. Using logic, if he has adjusted to higher levels of competition and will most likely continue based on his past history. Given that in his rookie year he was picked to go to the pro bowl and was named Sporting news rookie of the year I would say his adjustment to the pros is coming along and it's safe to assume he will continue to improve and adapt to the pro game.

So here we have a guy that has won awards and been selected as pro-bowl worthy by not only fans but coaches and his peers. You know, guys that actually play and coach the game. Guys that make a living off of analyzing and maximizing the talent in these individuals.

So once again, please provide a lucid response as to why he is over-rated. In comparison to what he received as guaranteed salaries I can agree. But what he does on the field as a defensive tackle, I would beg to differ.

[cphil006]

Just because Suh would trade for him, doesn't mean "Detroit" would. Their management ultimately makes those decisions.

[SkinsNumberOne]

I don't understand the Vinny/GM's on his board.

Why in the world would a 3rd round pick be satisfaction? Does not make sense or cents, He is much more valuable than thinking like that.

Wait for the best opportunity to get a steal, like teams have pulled on us for the centuries..ie Mike Shanahan with Bailey and Portis, Which Shanny pulled off by the way.

Its about time we stop acting like a scared monky and hand it to some of the teams to improve ours.

Our other option is to sit Albert and wait for him to come around.

By the way, did not any of of you hear we are not letting Albert or McNabb go, or were you on the moon eating crackers and soda pop at the time of the announcement?

I totally agree... the way to GM is to sell the koolaid on the players you have. AH is an amazing talent, we should be able to get good value on him rather than throwing in the towel before an offer is even made.

Totally with you, some people really do sound like Vinnys. Mortgage the home to bring players in, then sell them on the cheap when you have some issue with them. That is not the way to bring the Skins back to respectability.

[brettstr]

Still trying to figure out how you can say he is over rated? A dominant defensive tackle in college winning all kinds of awards. When he goes on to the NFL, he basically dominated his position in a 4-3 scheme.

As a high school player in Grant High School of Portland he was awarded Parade all America honors and the 2004 Interscholastic League Defensive Player of the year. ( they generally give out awards on results not potential)

Rivals.com considered him a 4 star recruit and he was considered one of the top college prospects at his position.

So then this guy ( over rated as he is) goes on to college at Nebraska. ( Just a little note, Nebraska does not just want anybody off the street to play football for them. They need to play competitive football and win games. So over rated players generally are vetted out quickly)

So his freshman (2005) year Suh played two games and was injured. ( medically red-shirted)

In 2006, he played all the games and won all big 12 honors from the Sporting News despite coming off the bench. ( never knew an over-rated player coming off the bench. Usually a player is over-rated when viewed as a starter)

Then 2008 rolls around and the guy leads the team in tackles. ( not an easy thing to do for an interior defensive lineman. especially an over-rated one) He also won All Big 12 first team honors.

His senior year in 2009 Suh won more awards ( MVP for the Big 12 Championship game) He also was part #1 ranked scoring defense that year. Was picked as consensus First Team All American, First team All Big 12 honors, Associated Press National player of the year, Big 12 Defensive player of the year, Defensive lineman of the year and a finalist for the Heisman.

So just by looking at this guys history, he has always risen to the top. The onset of his college career called for some adjustments and judging by the way he began winning awards it shows that he seems to have done that. Using logic, if he has adjusted to higher levels of competition and will most likely continue based on his past history. Given that in his rookie year he was picked to go to the pro bowl and was named Sporting news rookie of the year I would say his adjustment to the pros is coming along and it's safe to assume he will continue to improve and adapt to the pro game.

So here we have a guy that has won awards and been selected as pro-bowl worthy by not only fans but coaches and his peers. You know, guys that actually play and coach the game. Guys that make a living off of analyzing and maximizing the talent in these individuals.

So once again, please provide a lucid response as to why he is over-rated. In comparison to what he received as guaranteed salaries I can agree. But what he does on the field as a defensive tackle, I would beg to differ.

I am amazed at the posture and alluring detail concerning the wherewithall of a player that has demonstrated the ability to play well. My statement was he was overated and I stand by it....meaning the jury is still out..so stop pushing the argument I can say what I feel and observe. I watch him play.My statement is lucid. Time will tell if SUHEY is legit.

Lets have that beer and water

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Come back from the light. That scene is crazy. 5th are u serious?

-

Uh, yeah.

Anything higher than a 4th or a 5th is a team in desperate need of a DT.

Detroit isn't one of those teams, even with the overrated Suh. They have a pretty solid top 3 as it stands now.

[Rudechain]

I am amazed at the posture and alluring detail concerning the wherewithall of a player that has demonstrated the ability to play well. My statement was he was overated and I stand by it....meaning the jury is still out..so stop pushing the argument I can say what I feel and observe. I watch him play.My statement is lucid. Time will tell if SUHEY is legit.

Lets have that beer and water

Well let's see what happens. I don't recall anyone here stating he is all world or destined for the hall of fame.

You state he is over-rated but yet you don't seem to be able to quantify the reasons behind it.

What I am amazed at the inanity of a post describing a rookie who goes to the pro-bowl after winning awards at college as over-rated.

The jury is still out, but I have yet to see a verdict for that same jury to rule on.

so once again, I will ask you to actually give lucid reasoning why you think he is over-rated. ( I watch the games too and witnessed a defensive tackle that played very well)

Does he have room for improvement? Sure he does, but as I said he has demonstrated an ability to raise his game at every level. One would assume he will continue that trajectory.

Are you able to actually tell me why he's over-rated in your opinion? Is it his strength? conditioning? attitude?

As of yet, it's your opinion, and that's fine but generally we have some sort of a foundation to base that opinion on. All I am asking is for you to actually view that foundation and relate it to us.

It surely seems to me as your just throwing out a statement based on personal prejudice of some sort. And pushing the argument? My first post in this thread was questioning you why he is over rated. To help gain insight as to why I feel he is not over-rated I provided details. You know some sort of reasoning as to why I think he's not over-rated. Or in other words backing up my viewpoint with data.

As I said before, and this is the convenient way for you to make your point that most could agree with, the monies he has received so far for playing football are probably over-valued. ( 40 million guaranteed for a rookie defensive tackle) But that is a five year contract too. And if you compare his production at that compensation with Haynesworth I would suspect Albert would be viewed as over rated.

So come on Brett, what is it that makes you view him as over rated? What do you "feel" and "observe" that makes him over-rated? When you "watch him play" what about his play that makes you think he is over-rated?

[Dan T.]

Trade him to Detroit for a 1994 Ford Taurus.

---------- Post added January-18th-2011 at 11:25 AM ----------

I am amazed at the posture and alluring detail concerning the wherewithall of a player that has demonstrated the ability to play well. My statement was he was overated and I stand by it....meaning the jury is still out..so stop pushing the argument I can say what I feel and observe. I watch him play.My statement is lucid. Time will tell if SUHEY is legit.

Lets have that beer and water

Translation: "I got nothin'."

.

[brettstr]

Well let's see what happens. I don't recall anyone here stating he is all world or destined for the hall of fame.

You state he is over-rated but yet you don't seem to be able to quantify the reasons behind it.

What I am amazed at the inanity of a post describing a rookie who goes to the pro-bowl after winning awards at college as over-rated.

The jury is still out, but I have yet to see a verdict for that same jury to rule on.

so once again, I will ask you to actually give lucid reasoning why you think he is over-rated. ( I watch the games too and witnessed a defensive tackle that played very well)

Does he have room for improvement? Sure he does, but as I said he has demonstrated an ability to raise his game at every level. One would assume he will continue that trajectory.

Are you able to actually tell me why he's over-rated in your opinion? Is it his strength? conditioning? attitude?

As of yet, it's your opinion, and that's fine but generally we have some sort of a foundation to base that opinion on. All I am asking is for you to actually view that foundation and relate it to us.

It surely seems to me as your just throwing out a statement based on personal prejudice of some sort. And pushing the argument? My first post in this thread was questioning you why he is over rated. To help gain insight as to why I feel he is not over-rated I provided details. You know some sort of reasoning as to why I think he's not over-rated. Or in other words backing up my viewpoint with data.

As I said before, and this is the convenient way for you to make your point that most could agree with, the monies he has received so far for playing football are probably over-valued. ( 40 million guaranteed for a rookie defensive tackle) But that is a five year contract too. And if you compare his production at that compensation with Haynesworth I would suspect Albert would be viewed as over rated.

So come on Brett, what is it that makes you view him as over rated? What do you "feel" and "observe" that makes him over-rated? When you "watch him play" what about his play that makes you think he is over-rated?

Ok for you first glass of water on me.

I am always looking for the one hit wonders in the league. Consitency is the name of the game when measuring the prolific ability of Suey. He definitely has shown the talent to be successful in the league. How would you rate a secong year player that did not put up the numbers a year before. Over-rated or Uunderachiever?

[ouvan59]

Trade him to Detroit for a 1994 Ford Taurus.

Only if it's a wagon and throw in the Tru-Coat.