What's the Truth About Donovan's Failure in Shanahan's Scheme?

[darrelgreenie]

why bring facts into something like this? Appreciate the support

You may not have brought it up in this thread, but you did in another thread.

And you're certainly running with it here.

[Bang]

How about E. The coaches called a completely different game?

You can tell by the postgame conference that Mike in in love with Rex or a racist at heart. He didn't speak negatively about anything. Uh who was the first interception to that set the tone of the game? Who lost a fumble that led to 7 points and lost us the game? And who came out nervous and erratic with 55 seconds left when all we needed was a field goal and then threw an interception the final play of the game in which we would have had a chance to win? Oh yeah, REX GROSSMAN!

If that was McNabb, Shanahan would not have lived that down, he would have focused only on the mistakes. Did Rex play well? Yeah he did great considering, but same game with McNabb and we would have been hearing about how it was a terrible decision to throw the first pick and the second one to end the game was worse. He is a racist...plain and simple and will ruin our franchise. Mike Shanahan has single handedly said F you, to the whole entire Redskins fan base on 2 separate occasions!

I am so sick of this organization...an organization is supposed to be organized.

Oh but thanks for benching our starting quarterback who had the whole team in his corner for some bum...right before we play Dallas.

Ban me, but this might be the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever read on this board.

Racism? That's laughable. It really is. I am not going to bother with it further. if that's where your head is on this, you're hopeless, and I can't change it. I will say that if that was the case, there was no reason to give 13 games to him in the first place.

Maybe they called a different game because what they said is true, Rex knows more of the offense, and it opens up what they can do.

Maybe they called a different game because what we've been reading is true, that McNabb isn't comfortable in the offense, and doesn't read his progressions, sticking to what he's used to.

But no, perhaps you're right. It's all the fault of a racist coach who has had a secret plan to embarrass McNabb and replace him with a QB who doesn't even have a contract for next year.

You're an embarrassment to the fans of this team and further, to intelligent people all over this region.

Take your hate and go crawl into a sewer somewhere.

~Bang

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

No, I remember him being upset about NFL rule changes.

The system hasn't changed at all through Peyton's pro career. Tom Moore's offense is not only run by the OC, who was a long time wide out caoch in Indi, but Moore himself is back as the senior OC.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

From a recent Sally Jenkins article (can't believe how much I've started to enjoy her work):

I think these two paragraphs, if they hold anything of truth within them, are the answer to the questions posed by Oldfan. It looks like it's a mixture of B, C and D. There has been some stubbornness to change, and I do think that Kyle has called a lot of deep pass plays for McNabb... it's why we rarely got a long, time-consuming drive out of the offense when McNabb was running it. Grossman comes in and just like that we suddenly have three long, time-consuming drives in one half. I don't think that's just a coincidence, so I'm going to lean towards the idea that McNabb has been a bit more inflexible and it has hurt the offense overall. He's done some good things, and I'm sure the coaches have relayed that to him, but in order to win championships it's going to take some balance.

I understand the McNabb trade and stand by it to this day. I don't think Shanahan was so wrong for pulling the trigger. You assume that a QB who has done a lot of things during his 11 year career and has not shown any decline in arm strength or athleticism the last few years can come in and be productive in any system. The last thing you assume is he's going to come in and pretty much refuse to adapt, or simply make it extremely difficult to implement your entire playbook. You could argue that the Eagles last year were almost entirely predicated on the big play, so Shanny should've known that... but unless he's talking directly to Andy Reid about it all how could he have when McNabb has shown previously that he can run a more quick pass-oriented offense as well. I guess Westbrook made more of a difference than anyone previously thought.

Still, McNabb isn't a bad QB. He's a very good one who can escape pressure, take hits and improvise with the best of them. He's just one who is a bit one-dimensional. Kyle's system is strong in my mind, so a QB who is more multi-faceted is going to be better even though he may be less talented or even less capable. I think that's what has come out through all of this.

I don't believe those rumors because Donovan gave us exactly what he gave the Eagles over the past couple of seasons. The results we got from him were completely predictable. His Eagles teams were ranked near the top in big plays and near the bottom in the red zone.

Donovan isn't unwilling to adapt. He's unable to run a ball control offense well when the strategy calls for it.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

How about E. The coaches called a completely different game?

You can tell by the postgame conference that Mike in in love with Rex or a racist at heart. He didn't speak negatively about anything. Uh who was the first interception to that set the tone of the game? Who lost a fumble that led to 7 points and lost us the game? And who came out nervous and erratic with 55 seconds left when all we needed was a field goal and then threw an interception the final play of the game in which we would have had a chance to win? Oh yeah, REX GROSSMAN!

If that was McNabb, Shanahan would not have lived that down, he would have focused only on the mistakes. Did Rex play well? Yeah he did great considering, but same game with McNabb and we would have been hearing about how it was a terrible decision to throw the first pick and the second one to end the game was worse. He is a racist...plain and simple and will ruin our franchise. Mike Shanahan has single handedly said F you, to the whole entire Redskins fan base on 2 separate occasions!

I am so sick of this organization...an organization is supposed to be organized.

Oh but thanks for benching our starting quarterback who had the whole team in his corner for some bum...right before we play Dallas.

You, Sir, not Shanahan, are the one with the bigoted, racist agenda to even consider such a thing.

I've read some far out, ****** up theory's on these here boards, but that stand's a top of them all.

Hail.

[tshile]

Your use of the phrase "pure speculation" implies little or no evidence to support the conclusion. That isn't the case when we speculate about his fit for the scheme. We have a dozen years of evidence on Donovan. You might question my knowledge of the game, but you can't call it pure speculation.

if you want to consider what you see during the game, and on NFL network, and whatever else you have at your disposal to view a player, and somehow think it compares even remotely to what the coaches get from practice, scouts, tapes, etc. then go ahead.

i think you're crazy though. comparatively, it is speculation. maybe not 100%, but its like 95-99%... taking what you see in 60 minutes of football and comparing it to the wealth of information obtained by those around the players ona regular basis is laughable.

now, you yourself may have that access. you may get into the locker room. my comments were aimed at those who aren't privey to that, and spend their time evaluating players on Sunday, instead of 7 days a week, and don't get ota's, training camp, etc.

[KDawg]

I'm not sure McNabb is all that football savvy, but I don't know him behind closed doors, or in the practice facility... It would be a bit off for me to say he doesn't know football. I do, however, get nervous with how slow he moves pace wise. There's no tempo with him. No excitement. People knocked Campbell for those things, but McNabb faces the same difficulties as far as those things go.

The one thing I noticed yesterday was how crisp the offense was coming in and out of the huddle, and how Grossman wasn't afraid to hit the checkdown. These are two things I didn't notice with McNabb.

This leads me to believe that McNabb doesn't fit the system. And a slow, monotone pace doesn't fit any system, to be quite honest.

[PorkSkins]

None of these answers are correct.

[Skinsinparadise]

I for the most part agree with Oldfan's point and I recall what he said about McNabb at the time of the trade -- good athlete but inaccurate, especially with short passes. He relied on his big arm and speed to excel in the past but now at on older age he's not the same guy. And I recall him saying he'd struggle in the red zone, he was right about that too.

If we go based on reports:

Shanahan tried to correct McNabb's footwork

McNabb seemed to want the offense tailored to his strengths as opposed to Shanny's scheme

Kyle was frustrated about how often McNabb's improvises and goes off script -- and unsuccessfully

The only thing that contradicts Oldfan's take (unless I am misreading him) on Shanny's offense is that he's not really a west coast guy. The 980 beat reporter, Chris Russell, on the radio talked about that as one of their issues about McNabb, is his failures with short passes. they like John Beck and signed him to a three year contract, who is a pure West Coast Offense guy, with a quick release, etc. Yesterday, seemed like we saw a lot of short passes with Rex and saw the team in the 2nd half sustain drives.

My guess is Shanny wanted to have a good QB and figured he could fix what he didn't like about him ala Jake Plummer -- he gambled wrong. Reid reoriented his offense around McNabb's strengths and McNabb expected the same here. Shanny likes his scheme too much to do that coupled with the idea that McNabb's athleticism and improvisational skills which were his strengths -- just aren't that special anymore. i could be wrong, but that's my best guess.

[boofMcboof]

The truth is you can't teach old dogs new tricks and both McNabb and Shanahan are old dogs at their respective positions.

Someone had to bend. No one did. 5-9 is the result.

[Mahons21]

Reading the signs and the way things have played out its the only thing that makes sense when you consider how quickly they're "giving up" on McNabb considering what "they" gave up to get him.

Coaches go out of their way to make things work when they acquire a QB.

This was the worst season of McNabb's career, a borderline HOF multiple pro-bowl career.

I have a hard team believing that a motivated Kyle and Mike couldn't have more success w/ McNabb if they were behind the decision to bring him here.

They would have done everything in their power to adjust the offense to allow McNabb to have success.

Imo they didn't want him and Kyle and McNabb have never had a proper OC/QB relationship.

And I agree that all makes perfect sense. It really is a great theory, one which I wish we would someday know the answer to, but I doubt we ever will.

I just still can't see Snyder finally "getting it" by hiring a GM, then getting Shannahan etc, not staying around the park during camp as he had in previous years. Then go out and make the biggest move of the offseason himself.

I don't have an explanation, only an idea, for why the offense wasn't better suited to McNabb. But you and I have been talking about screens since about week 5, and yesterday they're finally incorporated properly. I know McNabbs known to have poor short-ball accuracy, but he proved in Philly he can throw a screen, it shouldn't have been a larger part of our offense earlier in the season.

I think the o-line coupled with McNabb's style of play had to be a contributing factor to why the offense couldn't be better tailored to McNabb's strengths. As we all know he's best when throwing deep and ad-libbing plays, however neither was very possible this season due to both McNabb's decreased mobility and some awful inefficiencies across the offensive line.

[vnmenon1]

E - Rex wasnt as great as people thought he was.... and it was only one game.... wait to judge

[Mahons21]

E - Rex wasnt as great as people thought he was.... and it was only one game.... wait to judge

The offense as a whole just seemed to move better, and it didn't require a good game from Rex. That's what worries me.

[Skinsinparadise]

E - Rex wasnt as great as people thought he was.... and it was only one game.... wait to judge

I don't think Grossman was great but the offense seemed more efficient with him. McNabb seems like the classiest guy, charismatic too, and i'd love to see him succeed here but the ship seems to have sailed on it. I got no love for Grossman.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Out of your options, D Of, with C a factor too if the OC was anything of an OC and teacher who would of tailored his scheme to fit McNabb's skill set.

Personally, regardless of whom the QB is, I have little faith in Kyle Shanahan going forward as an OC. His play calling has been REAL questionable at times this year, and real predictable when we get anywhere near the red zone; and this pathetic feud with McNabb is far from becoming of a professional. You might not like the guy. Heck, you may not of wanted him as he didn't fit the requirements of your system. But your hired to do the best job possible for the organization that pays your salary. So you swallow your pride, work together in a professional manner, and if you need to tweak your system to accommodate the QB you do it. We've had enough problems over the other side of the ball with Haslett trying to implement too much too soon and not tailoring his scheme to the skill set of the players he inherited with out the OC doing the same. I'd love to know exactly what input Kubiak had in the Texans scheme.

McNabb's gone. Grossman has a chance to be here in some back-up capacity next year. I doubt it happens, but I'd love Mike to either dispense with sentiment and can his son after giving it a go, let Allen concentrate on player acquisitions, and get back to doing what he does, having FULL control over the O and calling great games; or at the very least sit down with his boy, have his own input, and tailor the scheme way better to the personnel we have.

Hail.

[Darth Tater]

C is obviously the most correct answer but all possible answers presented have an element of truth and an element of falsity.

[PorkSkins]

McNabb had a great security blanket in Westbrook. We don't have anyone close to Westbrook coming out of the backfield to catch a pass. Yesterday didn't prove anything. We played from behind the whole game. Let's see what happens the next two games when the opponents are actually playing for a playoff spot.

[Oldfan]

...Also w/ the reports that Synder is upset over the McNabb bench seem to suggest at least to me that McNabb may have been a Synder move and not a Shanahan move..

Not a chance. Mike has shown his insecurity in his disciplinary actions. He never misses a chance to let everyone know he's in charge. It's important to his self-image. McNabb was his decision.

[Skinsinparadise]

I have little faith in Kyle Shanahan going forward as an OC. His play calling has been REAL questionable at times this year, and real predictable when we get anywhere near the red zone; and this pathetic feud with McNabb is far from becoming of a professional.

Hail.

Actually oddly enough going back to one of Oldfan's points from the past, Mcnabb hasn't been historically good in the red zone. Grossman on the other hand did well in the red zone including passing for 2 two pointers. coincidence? maybe. How do you know that McNabb and Kyle have a feud? that's scuttlebutt. Seems like the main theory floating out there is what's driving this is McNabb's style of play not fitting the scheme. Shanny was asked about a personality conflict directly, and he responded saying that McNabb is one of the classiest guys you'd ever meet -- and its difficult to have any personality conflicts with someone like him. It usually takes two to tango with a feud.

[Oldfan]

Out of your options, D Of, with C a factor too if the OC was anything of an OC and teacher who would of tailored his scheme to fit McNabb's skill set.

Personally, regardless of whom the QB is, I have little faith in Kyle Shanahan going forward as an OC. His play calling has been REAL questionable at times this year, and real predictable when we get anywhere near the red zone; and this pathetic feud with McNabb is far from becoming of a professional. You might not like the guy. Heck, you may not of wanted him as he didn't fit the requirements of your system. But your hired to do the best job possible for the organization that pays your salary. So you swallow your pride, work together in a professional manner, and if you need to tweak your system to accommodate the QB you do it. We've had enough problems over the other side of the ball with Haslett trying to implement too much too soon and not tailoring his scheme to the skill set of the players he inherited with out the OC doing the same. I'd love to know exactly what input Kubiak had in the Texans scheme.

McNabb's gone. Grossman has a chance to be here in some back-up capacity next year. I doubt it happens, but I'd love Mike to either dispense with sentiment and can his son after giving it a go, let Allen concentrate on player acquisitions, and get back to doing what he does, having FULL control over the O and calling great games; or at the very least sit down with his boy, have his own input, and tailor the scheme way better to the personnel we have.

Hail.

The Coach should adapt to the player, of course. But, there are limits. Donovan McNabb no longer has the skillset that makes significant compromises in your scheme worthwhile. You need to have the flexibility to attack different defenses. Donovan doesn't allow you to do that.

I fault Mike for the trade, but not for failure to fully adapt to his player.

[Skinsinparadise]

Not a chance. Mike has shown his insecurity in his disciplinary actions. He never misses a chance to let everyone know he's in charge. It's important to his self-image. McNabb was his decision.

I agree with this being a Shanny decision not a Snyder one. I don't agree on the insecurity. Shanny like him or not like him, IMO clearly has some guts, and doesn't seem concerned about media or player backlash, to me that represents the opposite of insecurity. In his book, he explains his leadership style by saying he believes in keeping players on edge, doesn't want anyone too comfortable/complacent and doesn't care about players past reputations if they don't measure up currently, he will give players with iffy reputations a chance but if they don't play along it sets a bad precedent for the rest of the team. Shanny clearly has flaws, I'd go with ego over insecurity -- and yeah I know ego can mask insecurity, but he strikes me as a guy who thinks he knows what he's doing as opposed to it being an act.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The Coach should adapt to the player, of course. But, there are limits. Donovan McNabb no longer has the skillset that makes significant compromises in your scheme worthwhile. You need to have the flexibility to attack different defenses. Donovan doesn't allow you to do that.

I fault Mike for the trade, but not for failure to fully adapt to his player.

Then that begs the question why you'd make the trade in the first place if you had those doubts on McNabb's current ability.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

if you want to consider what you see during the game, and on NFL network, and whatever else you have at your disposal to view a player, and somehow think it compares even remotely to what the coaches get from practice, scouts, tapes, etc. then go ahead.

Since I'm not debating with the coaches, this comment is not relevant.

My opinion is supported by evidence, therefore it's not "pure speculation."

[Dro89]

How about E. The coaches called a completely different game?

You can tell by the postgame conference that Mike in in love with Rex or a racist at heart. He didn't speak negatively about anything. Uh who was the first interception to that set the tone of the game? Who lost a fumble that led to 7 points and lost us the game? And who came out nervous and erratic with 55 seconds left when all we needed was a field goal and then threw an interception the final play of the game in which we would have had a chance to win? Oh yeah, REX GROSSMAN!

If that was McNabb, Shanahan would not have lived that down, he would have focused only on the mistakes. Did Rex play well? Yeah he did great considering, but same game with McNabb and we would have been hearing about how it was a terrible decision to throw the first pick and the second one to end the game was worse. He is a racist...plain and simple and will ruin our franchise. Mike Shanahan has single handedly said F you, to the whole entire Redskins fan base on 2 separate occasions!

I am so sick of this organization...an organization is supposed to be organized.

Oh but thanks for benching our starting quarterback who had the whole team in his corner for some bum...right before we play Dallas.

probably the most ignorant thing I have ever read on this site...

[tshile]

Then that begs the question why you'd make the trade in the first place if you had those doubts on McNabb's current ability.

Hail.

unless he didn't make the trade, and it was all someone else's idea in the organization. he went along with it to see if it worked, and if it didn't he proves he knows more then them