Redskins vs Patriots (Skill Postions)

[darrelgreenie]

I was listening to the McNabb "benching" aftermath on the radio this afternoon and Chris Russell said this [paraphrasing]:

the Patriots don't have alot of talent on offense but are able to be productive because of Tom Brady and the scheme

In your opinions [independent of OL, QB and scheme] do we have less, more, equal skill position talent [excluding the QB of course] as the Patriots and why?

edit: Say for example if our skill position players were on the Patriots would their offense be worse, better, the same?

[THUNDERDOME]

They have a great O-Line.

O-line makes up for the lack of talent at the skill positions.

[Frostx08]

People say that because they equate talent with names. So if you're not a big name...then you're not talented. Basically, they're saying that anyone of us can suit up and earn a million dollar pay check as long as Bradys throwing to us lol

They don't see how closely the players fit into the scheme...or how many plays those receivers are making in space or any of that stuff. Because the QB is Tom Brady(who I think is great), he will get all the credit and everyone else are just his pawns

I definitely think Bradys MVP, but to watch how their system works and their players play and say they're not talented, especially with that great O-line is ridiculous IMO

[Fred Jones]

The Patriots have a good enough Oline that allows a HOF QB to execute their offense. Scheme is such an overused term when you have a HOF QB throwing.

If we had Elway throwing and a good Oline protecting, we have plenty of talent at the skilled positions on offense to win. Shanny could open up his entire offense and run whatever play he wanted just like they do in NE. Scheme to me is the ability of the QB to run the offense the coordinator creates and runs. Now, the QB does need time to execute, but you get my meaning.

[drowland]

The thing about the Patriots is they maximize the talent they have. They figure out the strenghts of their players and use them accordingly. It's what a lot of teams can't do.

[darrelgreenie]

They have a great O-Line.

O-line makes up for the lack of talent at the skill positions.

but to watch how their system works and their players play and say they're not talented, especially with that great O-line is ridiculous IMO

The Patriots have a good enough Oline that allows a HOF QB to execute their offense. Scheme is such an overused term when you have a HOF QB throwing.

If we had Elway throwing and a good Oline protecting, we have plenty of talent at the skilled positions on offense to win. Shanny could open up his entire offense and run whatever play he wanted just like they do in NE. Scheme to me is the ability of the QB to run the offense the coordinator creates and runs. Now, the QB does need time to execute, but you get my meaning.

First off thanks for the replies.

But, maybe i should clarify.

I'm not talking about the talent of the players within the scheme given their OL and QB.

I was hoping for a comparison of their talent to our talent 1 for 1 independent of OL and QB.

I will edit the post thusly:

Say for example if our skill position players were on the Patriots would their offense be limited?

[Conn]

I think that regardless of athletic ability in the usual sense (strength, speed, size), our skill players are at a disadvantage in terms of hands.

The patriots WR's and RB's just DON'T drop balls. Not often. And when they do, they are a smaller part of the next gameplan or two (see: Gronkowski earlier in the season after a dreadful performance in the RZ).

Part of this can be attributed to Brady throwing a better ball, in terms of "catchability", and in terms of getting the ball to the right guy on each play.

But the other part is that Belicheck obviously values good hands and great route-running over other physical attributes. Otherwise, you'd see more athletic freaks on the Pats and less "unspectacular" guys like Woodhead, Edelman, etc.

Basically, the Pats have a stable franchise, stable offense, stable line situation, and stable QB situation. This allows them to "plug and play" guys who can be had at a value price in the draft, because they aren't spectacular prospects. They're solid guys who are intelligent, can run routes and follow blocks, and most importantly maybe, consistently catch the ball.

You don't need big physical playmakers when you can consistently depend on 3-5 yards a play, and the added benefit of smart after-the-catch work by the skill players.

So, to wrap it up, I don't think the Patriot's skill players (other than Welker) are "better" than many of ours in the traditional sense. But they possess attributes that Belicheck obviously covets, and by virtue of those attributes, they are more reliable than our players.

[darrelgreenie]

Patriots are 3rd in drops w/ 33

Redskins are 20th w/ 21

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

[Newera]

The Pats are like Duke Basketball. They have a system and find players that fit what they do. When Walker got hurt last year, they replaced him with another fast speedy route runner. Look at Deon Branch. Super Bowl MVP. Get's the big contract and goes to Seattle only to be lost. Comes back and he and Brady have not missed a beat.

The key to their success is Brady. Belichik knows who's buttering his bread. It's Tom. Coach K does the same thing at Duke. Likewise the Steelers. Those teams know their identities. It's what Redskins are in the process of doing. Finding out who they are.

[Snagletooth]

I voted the same. Santana would be great in that offense. Not sure that RB's really fit that scheme so they are hard to compare. But talent wise seems they are similiar.

[Frostx08]

Patriots are 3rd in drops w/ 33

Redskins are 20th w/ 21

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

The "dropped" stat has always been an imperfect stat from what I see. For example if a ball hits your hands or if you never wrap your hands around it I dont think it counts as a "drop". But if a player has the ball for a second or so, or if he completely drops it like Steve Johnson or Santonio Holmes in that Miami game, that's another thing. It's weird

[Papabear]

What a stupid ****ing poll.

[Frostx08]

I voted the same. Santana would be great in that offense. Not sure that RB's really fit that scheme so they are hard to compare. But talent wise seems they are similiar.

I don't think the Patriots would even be interested in Moss ever if they could. The Patriots like the Colts seem to have underrated players because of their Qb's fame imo

But to go back to the OP, as evidenced by our own numbers the production down from Cooley & Moss seems drastic

[Conn]

Patriots are 3rd in drops w/ 33

Redskins are 20th w/ 21

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

The drop stat is not something you can trust. Its too arbitrary. I watch almost every single Pats game, living in CT, along with all of our games, and trust me...our WR's and TE's drop more passes. That offense is WAY more efficient. You can place different amounts of "blame" on different aspects to explain why, but the reality is that PART of that difference is that our skill players are less reliable, in terms of catching the ball.

Of course, the balls also aren't as "on target" as Brady's are. And I don't know if you want to attribute that specifically to McNabb's issues with accuracy, or give part of that blame to the new system McNabb's had to learn.

But still. There's a difference, and those stats don't show it.

[darrelgreenie]

The drop stat is not something you can trust. Its too arbitrary. I watch almost every single Pats game, living in CT, along with all of our games, and trust me...our WR's and TE's drop more passes. That offense is WAY more efficient. You can place different amounts of "blame" on different aspects to explain why, but the reality is that PART of that difference is that our skill players are less reliable, in terms of catching the ball.

But still. There's a difference, and those stats don't show it.

I hope this discussion doesn't get sidetracked by a quible over drops.

You said the Redskins dropped more passes then the Pats.

I looked it up and posted the stats.

You can argue against any stat that you don't agree w/ but the method for acquiring the stat is the same across the board its not one way for the Redskins and a different way from the Patriots.

I'm sure there something to what you're saying being that you watch both teams.

But, despite the popular opinions in this forum i never felt that we drop a lot of passes and the stats support that thought.

[thebluefood]

They have a great O-Line.

O-line makes up for the lack of talent at the skill positions.

Bingo.

I know I'm being a broken record, but all you have to do is look at our own history to see that. How many "great" skill position players did the Redskins have during the first Gibbs era? Really think about it.

The Pats are the same way, except they actually have a HOF caliber QB in Brady, something Gibbs never had.

Though football has evolved immensely over the past 100+ years, one thing has stayed the same: if you control the line of scrimmage, you control the game.

We don't need superstars in the backfield. Hell, just plain "competent" will do, so long as we have a solid offensive line.

This is what I keep saying and I think ancient and modern football history has taught us that. You can have all the great backs you want, but if they don't have a solid offensive line to block for them, they'll look like chumps (with maybe the exception of the likes of Walter Payton and Barry Sanders).

Everything starts at the line of scrimmage.

[Dukes and Skins]

If we're basing it off of just the skill position guys without any influence on OL or QB then its almost a wash although I'd still say New England because of the young talent they have at key positions. Welker is a steady WR and one of the best in the league, Tate is the next young up and comer for them with his speed and breakaway ability and then you have 2 young TE's who compliment each other perfectly with Gronkowski being the blocker and receiver while Hernandez is the x-factor.

When you look at us you see an up and comer with Armstrong who's making the most of his opportunities now. An aging vet who's production is not as great as it should be. 2 TE's who basically are the same type and don't really compliment each other at all

Its close but I still give the edge to NE

[1972FAN]

I was listening to the McNabb "benching" aftermath on the radio this afternoon and Chris Russell said this [paraphrasing]:

In your opinions [independent of OL, QB and scheme] do we have less, more, equal skill position talent [excluding the QB of course] as the Patriots and why?

edit: Say for example if our skill position players were on the Patriots would their offense be worse, better, the same?

come on man, they had Moss earlier and now have Branch who was a pro bowl caliber reciever when he left and he's come back and just continued where he left off, it also has helped Wes Welker's game, pretty obvious. Green Jarvis and Woodhead are better than our current RB's, The Offensive line makes a MAJOR DIFFERENCE even though you say independent of the line, sorry can't do that, that makes the RB's and TE's better with a good line, cant disregard that, and were not even going to go to the QB no camparison at all. with out even talking about the defense. they have a better players period. There younger, faster and hungry, WE have none of that.

[wilco_holland]

The thing about the Patriots is they maximize the talent they have. They figure out the strenghts of their players and use them accordingly. It's what a lot of teams can't do.

That is so treu.

They always find players who fit there systeme pefectly...but that is only possible if you give a coach time and keep playing in the same style for multipli years.

Need to love what they are doing with there off. They think outside the box........you can give any team Woodhead, Hernandez and Gronkowski but no team would get that amount of production out of them.

Shanahan really should take a look at that, Cooley and Fred Davis are talented but don´t produce a hole lot togetter on the field. (Hernandez is a bit of a TE/WR who lines up with a old skool TE, we have two pretty mush the same players. That could be what makes NE duo so good.)

[darrelgreenie]

come on man, they had Moss earlier and now have Branch who was a pro bowl caliber reciever when he left and he's come back and just continued where he left off, it also has helped Wes Welker's game, pretty obvious. Green Jarvis and Woodhead are better than our current RB's, The Offensive line makes a MAJOR DIFFERENCE even though you say independent of the line, sorry can't do that, that makes the RB's and TE's better with a good line, cant disregard that, and were not even going to go to the QB no camparison at all. with out even talking about the defense. they have a better players period. There younger, faster and hungry, WE have none of that.

You come on man, lol.

Don't assume you know where i stand.

If they Patriots had our skill position players, and given that they would obviously change some of their schemes, do you think their offense would be any less successful?

[Long n Left]

I thought QB was a skill position, and the Pats have arguably the best ever, versus an aging guy who while a probable HOFer, has never won the big game, is renowned for his athleticism, and criticized for his inconsistency.

The difference in the two leaders makes this whole discussion moot, IMO.

[darrelgreenie]

Everything starts at the line of scrimmage.

I completely agree that everything starts upfront.

But, this question is about skill position player 1 for 1 independent of the QB and OL.

How do our skill position players match-up to their skill position players.

If it makes the comparison any easier imagine wether our players would have success in their offense.

---------- Post added December-18th-2010 at 08:19 AM ----------

I thought QB was a skill position, and the Pats have arguably the best ever, versus an aging guy who while a probable HOFer, has never won the big game, is renowned for his athleticism, and criticized for his inconsistency.

The difference in the two leaders makes this whole discussion moot, IMO.

From the OP:

In your opinions [independent of OL, QB and scheme] do we have less, more, equal skill position talent [excluding the QB of course] as the Patriots and why?

edit: Say for example if our skill position players were on the Patriots would their offense be worse, better, the same?

Independent of QB/OL/Scheme

[MartinC]

My take is if you look at the Patriots skill positions versus ours man for man you could make a case for ours being marginally better mainly because of Cooley and Moss. Cooley is head and shoulders the best TE, Moss would be a starter at receiver and put up big numbers. As a group the Patriots receivers are possibly better though but it's hard to say with Brady throwing to them which tends to make them look better. I would say that as a group the Patriots backs are better than ours without a healthy Portis.

It's close and probably a wash but I think if you put our skill players on the Patriots team as a group the Patriots keep winning, Cooley is an even bigger star than he is now and Moss is an annual 1200 yards plus receiver.

Which of course begs the question why are we struggling on offense? Lack of an elite QB and poor O'Line play would look likely suspects. You would also have to look at scheme and question coaching but my personal view at this point is our main issues are along the line and given the performance and benching of McNabb at QB.

[Rey]

The Patriots' O-Line is a huge part of it. If Washington had NE's O-Line then you could truly compare the two offenses.

However, the Pats have Tom Brady and that alone gives them a huge edge over the skins.

[darrelgreenie]

The Patriots' O-Line is a huge part of it. If Washington had NE's O-Line then you could truly compare the two offenses.

However, the Pats have Tom Brady and that alone gives them a huge edge over the skins.

Right.

But the question wasn't about our offense vs their's.

It was a comparison of talent at the non-QB skill position players independent of OL and scheme:

From the OP

In your opinions [independent of OL, QB and scheme] do we have less, more, equal skill position talent [excluding the QB of course] as the Patriots and why?

edit: Say for example if our skill position players were on the Patriots would their offense be worse, better, the same?