The confounding nature of many Redskins fans (or How the Media Pulls out Strings)

[KDawg]

First off, well thought out OP. You took your time and made a fantastic post. However, I disagree. I don't believe that you hire a GM or head coach that are going to listen to the fanbase. The fans don't know the entire story. I can talk 1-gap versus 2-gap and landmark drops versus pattern read defenses all day, but the problem is I don't know exactly what's going on in the meetings, in the buildings, in the locker room or on the practice field. During games, I don't know what plays have been called. Sure, I have some football knowledge but I have no inside knowledge. It would be a major blunder if anyone in the front office listened to the fan base.

It's time for our fanbase to stop pointing fingers at one another. Everyone wants to place blame somewhere, it's natural. But blaming the fanbase is a bit odd. It's the furthest thing from something that actually affects the onfield product.

However, I do want to point out again that I can appreciate a great post. Well thought out and from the heart.

It's too often we see people only say "GREAT POST!" when they agree with it.

I don't agree, but I'll tell you that this was an enjoyable read anyways. Kudos to you.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

So wait a minute--some of you think the fans are partly to blame for the Redskins' plight? LMAOOOOOOO!

As Oldfan rightly says, the owner and front office should not base their decisions on what the fans think or want.

[ZRagone]

First, thanks to all for the kind words. And I'm actually astonished that it got stickied. Very happy that it seems I"m not alone in my thinking on this.

I'm sick-and-tired of Skins fans thinking that the "media" treats the Redskins differently than any other team in the league.

Sorry, I should've clarified. I'm not talking about the National Media. I'm talking about your 106.7's, your 980's, your CSN or WaPo types. The local people who cover this team day in, day out, dominating most of their time. I agree that its a bit ridiculous to take the national media into account in something like this.

What light?? The signing of old players, trading of draft picks, declining defense....if it was Snyder making these moves then everyone would hate it, but no its the guy that won 2 SBs a decade ago that can't evaluate incoming free agents for nothing.

A couple of things here. EVERY Team is going to sign old players. There's not a team in this league that's going to pick up free agents and is unlikely to sign someone older than 4 years in the league. That said, the difference of this regime to the last is we're not signing them to multi-year, high end contracts. Willie Parker and Larry Johnson both had short term contracts with relatively little money.

In regards to the Draft Picks being traded away you have three trades. With regards to McNabb you traded a 2nd, which is a valuable pick, and what is going to be a 4th rounder from the following draft for a QB with top tier talent and leadership. You then traded for an admittedly banged up, but probowl level Tackle which was a position of need in a non-sexy location. You did so by giving away a 3rd round pick, but actually got a 5th round pick back, at least keeping your number of draft picks that year even. Essentially, you swapped back 2 rounds and picked up a starting Right Tackle that had a higher upside than any free agent and definitely more than Stephan Heyer. Finally you got a solid D-Linemen with first round talent for what was essentially a swap of a dozen picks or so. When comparing this to the trades of the past, such as a third and fourth for an unproven Brandon Lloyd or a 3rd round pick for TJ Ducket on a team with multiple RB's already, the difference is rather staggering. Do you realize we got a starting left tackle and a pick for the same price we got a RB that did absolutely nothing for us?

In regards to the defense, go look at the history of changing to a 3-4. It takes some time, as I said. Am I happy with our defense in total? Absolutely not. I'm also not going to magically forget the past 2 years when people were screaming "Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers". This Defense when healthy has shown it can make turn overs, but its a growth process. Which goes back to my point about rebuilding. This defense has been slowing down considerably the past few years, and added to a new scheme it was going to have some hiccups. The 3-4 was not supposed to be a one year wonder switch though and people expecting it to have been were kidding themselves. The key now is that we keep the turnover ability its shown and improve its ability to stop the opponents in other ways.

I can only speak for myself, but I assure you I would not think these moves were bad under Snydder anymore than I would under Shanahan. I'd perhaps have a bit more nervousness, due to history, of the reasons they were done...but that is natural. There is no reason to consider things exactly the same when done by someone who has a history of one thing and someone who has a different history. We do not live in a bubble.

Yeah we need football people making football decisions but there are fans that wonder if we do have the right ones in place to make those decisions based on their track record.

If the season was to end today exactly what bright spots are there to point out going into 2011?

A number of things. First and foremost, above all else, is a changed culture. Players realize the chain of command, that there is no special treatment of people who get to run off to the owner. That to be a redskin you're going to work, you're going to practice, and you're going to be as a team. That if you work your ass off and put in the time you could go from playing in the IFL to starting in the NFL. Beyond that you have an electrifying kick returner that is a potential game changer. You have at the very least a legitimate young solid wide receiver in Anthony Armstrong emerging. Your LT your drafted in the early rounds is looking good, and more it shows the front office is actually willing to draft o-linemen early. You have Laron Landry finally seemingly playing in the right position. You have Orakpo steadily progressing. You have Lorenzo Alexander further proving himself to be one of the most versatile players in the league. In Ryan Torain you may have at the very least a legitimate #2 back in a split backfield. And you have a talented QB that is, at the very least, an amazingly good leader who is going to have a bit of a learning curve in his first new offense in 11 seasons. Its not a ton, but its far more than I can think of in many recent years.

Dan Snyder owns the team. In his shoes, I would set a goal for the team and make a plan to achieve it. I would pay no attention to the fans or the media. So, I don't see how you can possibly argue credibly that the fans or the media share the responsibility. Whether we have patience or not over the next few years isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

I think you have a very narrow view on the power of public pressure and perception and the way it can infiltrate individuals minds even subconsciously. Negativity breeds an aura of it that can affect people in various ways. If you truly think that the fan or media reaction to things play no part look back at the Fossil pick and the odd way that played out. I'm not saying it has a ton of influence, but I believe it has more than many believe.

You say "the reality is we're rebuilding." I think the reality is that we should be rebuilding but we are not. You don't trade three high draft picks (2,3,4) for a 34 year-old, grade B quarterback and a wounded 29 year-old RT if you're rebuilding. You don't hire Mike Shanahan to rebuild. In his ten-year run, with full control in Denver, Mike went year-to-year, re-tooling, but never rebuilding.

First, one of those three picks you swapped, you didn't just get rid of it, so your draft totals were depleted simply by two. You also already have an extra pick right now in the 2012 draft as well that is the same round as the second pick you got for McNabb, so that's essentially a long distance Wash. So they traded away a 2nd round pick and swapped a 3rd for a 5th for an upgrade at QB that significantly helped change the culture of the team and a RT that, even wounded, is significantly better than anything we had on the team this year and should be better with a year in the system and with his injury fully recovered. Again, people are making a mountain out of a mole hill with these draft picks, especially when compared to before. Do you draft O-Line at #4 when you're not rebuilding, or do you go for the sexy position? You don't rebuild in a year, and you lose the lockerroom if as a new coach you come in and immediately just seem to be throwing games, so of course you're going to try to win. You've got the 2011 draft, which we're currently down only 1 draft pick in, and the 2012 draft, which we're up 1 draft pick in, still upcoming. You also have two more off seasons of potentially picking up people, which is something Shanahan has shown himself to do both in Denver and here. Simply making some reasonable and low risk short term moves that help push the team in the direction they want to go does not negate rebuilding.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

ZRagone,

I'm not sure it matters whether you're talking about the national or local media--the owner and FO should do what's best for the team, not what will make fans happy. The fans and media share absolutely zero blame for the Redskins' failures under Dan Snyder. Zilch.

The fact that we have an owner who is often described as a "fan"--as a lifelong Skins' fan, in fact--is problematic; it's a strong indication that Snyder considers the fan's POV when considering the personnel make-up of his team.

People often say that Snyder "wants to win, badly," as if he should be given some sort of pat on the back for wanting to win badly, when his actions speak otherwise. He doesn't want to want win badly, so much as he wants to win badly without having the balls to do it the right way, which means--a few throwaway seasons with zero hope of competing for the playoffs instead of taking shortcuts. He doesn't have the balls to do this because he's worried about what the fans will think if they aren't sold another yearly bill of goods about how next year's Redskins team will be a competitor. How can you charge the fans with being impatient when the owner himself takes shortcuts because HE DOESN'T have patience? Snyder is a marketer and fan who lucked into owning a professional football franchise.

It's just mind-boggling how we repeat this same cycle every year, regardless of the coach or FO. Why is this so hard?

*The NFL is a young man's league. Young players are now ready to make their mark within 1-2 years.

*The best teams today tend to be the youngest teams.

*Rebuilding is easier now than ever before; teams can "blow up" a roster and be competitive within a year or two, unlike the old days when it took several years. Look at TB, STL, and DET. All three of these teams are more competitive now than the Skins and were very recently terrible and uncompetitive. STL and DET will be legit contenders in the NFC in the next 1-2 years.

*You tell us to be "patient," when many of the moves MS and Bruce Allen have made are very similar to moves that previous regimes have made. This is starting to shape-up like another Gibbs II run, where MS will be able to coach-up an aging roster to an occasional 9 or 10-win season while not doing anything for the longterm prospects of this franchise. A lot of the comments I'm hearing about "patience" could've been written in 2004, when Gibbs invested a crapload of money in a 90 year old QB. Actions speak louder than words.

So, with all due respect, it's pretty damning on Snyder and the FO that you would even consider blaming the fans for the Skins' failures. I'm still willing to give MS a chance, and I'm still somewhat hopeful, but fans have every right to be skeptical and impatient, considering the circumstances, and especially when the organization itself has yet to show a commitment to patience and the long haul.

[Oldfan]

...I think you have a very narrow view on the power of public pressure and perception and the way it can infiltrate individuals minds even subconsciously. Negativity breeds an aura of it that can affect people in various ways. If you truly think that the fan or media reaction to things play no part look back at the Fossil pick and the odd way that played out. I'm not saying it has a ton of influence, but I believe it has more than many believe...

When you say that Dan Snyder could be influenced even subconsciously, all that you are doing is accusing him of a different fault than I am. A strong manager states his goal, develops his plan and then sticks to it unless there is a compelling reason to change course. We fans don't have the power, so we can't be blamed.

First, one of those three picks you swapped, you didn't just get rid of it, so your draft totals were depleted simply by two. You also already have an extra pick right now in the 2012 draft as well that is the same round as the second pick you got for McNabb, so that's essentially a long distance Wash. [/Quote] You're fast-shuffling those picks. You don't get to discount the 2012 pick acquired for Campbell (which had the value of a current sixth) since we could have had that pick by starting any QB. Grossman, for example. And obviously a third round pick has more value than a fifth round pick, so we weakened our draft even though the total didn't decrease.

So they traded away a 2nd round pick and swapped a 3rd for a 5th for an upgrade at QB that significantly helped change the culture of the team and a RT that, even wounded, is significantly better than anything we had on the team this year and should be better with a year in the system and with his injury fully recovered.

I consider the "change of culture' argument baloney offered to justify an obvious win-now move. The culture change is an effect that happens when teams start making all the right moves. Trading draft picks for old vets is a move the Skins have patented in recent years. So, it didn't change our culture.

Do you draft O-Line at #4 when you're not rebuilding, or do you go for the sexy position?

You wouldn't draft a starting LT if you wanted to win now? That move was an obvious one regardless of your goal.

You don't rebuild in a year, and you lose the lockerroom if as a new coach you come in and immediately just seem to be throwing games, so of course you're going to try to win.

I didn't notice the Lions or the Bucs trading high picks for veterans. They don't seem to have problems in the lockerooms. Their players seem to be happy that they are part of organizations on the rise. If I could trade our team, including the owner and coaches, for either one, I'd do it.

[c4man5282]

Excellent post. I love reading these types of post that are eye openers on so many levels.

[Ashburn Dave]

Great post!

Anyone not realizing that we're in transition with Shanny and Allen and we need to stay the course for a few years just doesn't have the needed patience it takes to build a contender.

[prufRock]

Again, people are making a mountain out of a mole hill with these draft picks, especially when compared to before. Do you draft O-Line at #4 when you're not rebuilding, or do you go for the sexy position? You don't rebuild in a year, and you lose the lockerroom if as a new coach you come in and immediately just seem to be throwing games, so of course you're going to try to win. You've got the 2011 draft, which we're currently down only 1 draft pick in, and the 2012 draft, which we're up 1 draft pick in, still upcoming. You also have two more off seasons of potentially picking up people, which is something Shanahan has shown himself to do both in Denver and here. Simply making some reasonable and low risk short term moves that help push the team in the direction they want to go does not negate rebuilding.

Perhaps not, but it is fair to judge him based on what he's done so far and so far we don't know if Shanahan's long term plan here is any better than Zorn's. Let's not just point to Trent Williams and assume there's a long term commitment being made to the offensive line. Don't forget that the Skins drafted Chris Samuels third overall in 2000 and then all but ignored the o-line in the draft for the next decade. Your logic in defending him is that he WON'T do in 2011 and 2012 what he did in 2010, so at the very least, you admit that so far, the moves don't point to a rebuilding effort, right?

[Mark The Homer]

ZRagone for President!

[THEREALTOR1]

If the fans, and the media who pull their strings, could perhaps be patient for 3 years and let this play out then perhaps Dan Snyder would too. And maybe, just maybe, we'll get some stability. The question is, do you think that will happen?

"A person is smart; people are dumb panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Kay~MIB

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Great post!

Anyone not realizing that we're in transition with Shanny and Allen and we need to stay the course for a few years just doesn't have the needed patience it takes to build a contender.

You do realize that the Skins have been in transition since 1993, right?

[KDawg]

I've read your responses and I really can't get behind this sentiment. The fans should not influence anything with this team. Seriously.

We have no information as to what's going on. If the fans are in fact influencing the things this organization is doing, we're in a VERY bad spot. Worse than I imagined. You cannot trust in fans who aren't in the building and aware of different situations and circumstances to make any kind of judgment call on what should definitely be done.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

I've read your responses and I really can't get behind this sentiment. The fans should not influence anything with this team. Seriously.

We have no information as to what's going on. If the fans are in fact influencing the things this organization is doing, we're in a VERY bad spot. Worse than I imagined. You cannot trust in fans who aren't in the building and aware of different situations and circumstances to make any kind of judgment call on what should definitely be done.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

It's seems pretty typical in our culture though--blame the consumers or the lowest people on the totem pole while making excuse after excuse for the people in power.

[wvudcfan52]

Well said. I don't get were some of us skins fans want stability, but then say fire the whole coaching staff. While alot of our losses have been really ugly this year, how many people did really think this was going to be a winning team? Yea sure we got Trent Williams on the Oline, but Trent can't play all of the Oline positions at once. And while we did make off season move for Olinemen all of our pickups were aging vets. Then our defense if your top 2 CB's are D Hall and Stonehands Rodgers you got problems. When a college football coach takes over a program, it usually takes about 3 or 4 years for his recruits to make an impact. Thats what Bruce Allan and Mike Shanahan need 3 to 4 years to get there players. Also it may take 5 to 6 years to build a contender we have so many problems I don't even know were we should start with with the draft this year. Oline, Dline, CB, a safety to compliment Landry, need to find Fletcher's replacement for when he retires. There are so many holes on this team that it will be a while before we can contend again. The only things we can take away from this season is better that last year record wise, and I said we would go 7-9 which is still reachable

[Spooky]

You do realize that the Skins have been in transition since 1993, right?

Since 1993, the Skins showcased a revolving door of overpriced underachievers with a mix of "B" grade players. They have not taken the time to rebuild the team and change the culture as they are trying to do now. I think that is what he ment by transition.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Since 1993, the Skins showcased a revolving door of overpriced underachievers with a mix of "B" grade players. They have not taken the time to rebuild the team and change the culture as they are trying to do now. I think that is what he ment by transition.

They might be changing some aspects of the culture, but they're still throwing away draft picks and valuing age over youth.

They still have the oldest roster in the NFL.

That's part of the "culture" too.

And my point was in response to the idea that Skins fans shouldn't be "impatient," even though the Skins have been one of the worst teams in the NFC for 17-18 years.

That's almost two decades.

I think fans have every right to be impatient and skeptical until proven otherwise.

[LD0506]

Some days it can be damned discouraging to come here and realize how much hardware is dedicated to knuckleheads blabbering on the internet, it is difficult to keep any kind of reasonable perspective much less a civil tongue. And then, there are days like this, posts like this one that make me realize exactly why I search for wheat amongst the chaff.

Fine job Z, you expressed what is definitely one of the core issues and point out exactly why we so desperately need a "I don't give a **** what you think!" guy like Shanahan.

[Springfield]

I agree with pretty much everything the OP said.

It's funny. It really is. Before this season started, Shanahan was lauded for his offensive genius. He was going to work wonders for this team. Bruce Allen was praised for his draft, his ability to work the cap and get the most appropriate players on a team. Kyle Shanahan was to be Shanahan's successor after his father's stint at head coach was over. Haslett was praised for his blitzing, attacking style of defense. We would be an electric team. We were on our way up, everything was looking bright.

Losing changes everything.

You can't buy a nice comment about any of the above men these days. It's really sad, how our fan base could be so fickle. We would turn on any head coach as if they were our best friend who slept with our wife. This attitude is nothing to be proud of. Pretending to know what is best for our team, to know which players fit better where, what scheme will work on who. None of us know. If we did, we'd have a job with the Washington Redskins as a highly paid coordinator. Sure, some of you know much more about the team, about the players, about the sport than others on this board. The fact of the matter is that you know infinitely less than anybody who actually has a position on the team.

I have a suggestion.

Let's just be fans. Realize that no matter what your opinion is, no matter who you think is failing, no matter why you think these things... there is nothing you can do about it. You can't call in to a local sports station and get the team to perform better. You can't write on a message board and have the team "get it". There is nothing you can do. You don't work for the Redskins, you don't play for the Redskins.

You are just a fan, let's leave it at that.

[Duckus]

I've read your responses and I really can't get behind this sentiment. The fans should not influence anything with this team. Seriously.

We have no information as to what's going on. If the fans are in fact influencing the things this organization is doing, we're in a VERY bad spot. Worse than I imagined. You cannot trust in fans who aren't in the building and aware of different situations and circumstances to make any kind of judgment call on what should definitely be done.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

You don't think the power of consumers and media can shape the actions of a corporation?

I can guarantee you 100000% that had the fans not been so pissed and vocal, Vinny Cerrato would still be at Redskins park. We absolutely had an influence.

Fans are not just fans. We are consumers. We make the NFL work. You better believe owners feel the pulse of their fans. Keeping us happy keeps them rich.

---------- Post added December-7th-2010 at 10:46 PM ----------

They might be changing some aspects of the culture, but they're still throwing away draft picks and valuing age over youth.

They still have the oldest roster in the NFL.

People keep saying this. Yes the average age of our roster is old, but if you look at our starting line-ups we have youth all over it. More than I can ever remember in the past 5 or so years.

Yes, we have an old player starting here and there (Fletcher, McNabb, Moss, Hicks, Portis) but the majority of our roster is fairly young. In fact we have several starting players who are extremely young. We have tons of rookies, 2nd and 3rd year players all over the field.

The old part of our team is really our depth. Daniels, Holiday, Buchanan etc. They are a billion years old and drag down our average age a ton. That will change as we find more and more youth. Many of our young starters might move into depth positions over the next few years.

I think the "old team" line is vastly overstated when you actually look at who is playing and getting reps.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Yes--a bunch of UDFA youth.

[onedrop]

nice read. the truth is that the Washington post sells more papers when we lose. more people tune into 106.7 when we lose (their whole existence is predicated on being contrary to the Skins success). websites get more hits when we lose. losing = drama = more fodder.

[Ænima]

nice read. the truth is that the Washington post sells more papers when we lose. more people tune into 106.7 when we lose (their whole existence is predicated on being contrary to the Skins success). websites get more hits when we lose. losing = drama = more fodder.

I disagree. In fact I believe that if by some divine miracle the Redskins actually won the division next year that this site's traffic would go through the roof. More fans would be excited if the Skins gave us something to be excited about.

[scruffylookin]

A retread coach was never my first choice but I am willing to wait and see what Shanahan does after 3 seasons before calling for his head. The only move I really hate that he's done was the McNabb trade. Even if McNabb played well, it was a short term stopgap move that I had hoped was coming to an end. Instead it just had an echo of the same short sighted crap we've seen throughout Snyders ownership.

[Oldfan]

Mike Lombardi says he worked alongside Belichick for five years in Cleveland and knew he would someday win Super Bowls. Here's what he had to say about Art Modell.

When Belichick was hired in Cleveland, Modell had no idea what he had, or what Belichick could eventually become. He never thought in three dimensions, or hired with a plan; he just hoped for success, in large part because Modell based every decision on what the media and the fans thought. Modell had a wonderful heart. He wanted to make his fan base happy, therefore hiring Belichick after winning a Super Bowl with the*New York Giants*was great, and firing him after the fans revolted was also great -- never mind he just extended his contract.

So, here's my question for Z and those who agree with him: Who do you blame for the lack of foresight? Art Modell or the Cleveland fans?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Mike Lombardi says he worked alongside Belichick for five years in Cleveland and knew he would someday win Super Bowls. Here's what he had to say about Art Modell.

When Belichick was hired in Cleveland, Modell had no idea what he had, or what Belichick could eventually become. He never thought in three dimensions, or hired with a plan; he just hoped for success, in large part because Modell based every decision on what the media and the fans thought. Modell had a wonderful heart. He wanted to make his fan base happy, therefore hiring Belichick after winning a Super Bowl with the*New York Giants*was great, and firing him after the fans revolted was also great -- never mind he just extended his contract.

So, here's my question for Z and those who agree with him: Who do you blame for the lack of foresight? Art Modell or the Cleveland fans?

What do you mean "or"? lol...From that Lombardi quote it sounds like they both lacked foresight.