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The confounding nature of many Redskins fans (or How the Media Pulls out Strings)

ZRagone

By ZRagone
in The Stadium

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Oldfan

Oldfan

Posted
Posted
It might be both...kinda like the case of a guy jumping off a building to his death. Who do you blame for the death: the depressed individual wanting to commit suicide or the large crowd below yelling "JUMP! JUMP!"? lol
:ols:

You know, I can put up with the insulting ****s in this forum. It's the nice, hardheaded guys like you I can't stand.;):D

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Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Posted
Posted

agree with the OP 110%. good thread.

again, i truly believe its because this town itself cannot handle the idea of laying low for a few years to build up. mcnabb is the only player on this team that says win now, the other 52 say rebuild. but the lack of patience is crazy. zorn got 2 years and that was enough, it was clear he wasnt going to work out, gibbs had 4 years which was a good tenure, but shanahan has had 3/4 of 1 season and people are already turned on him. its crazy.

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onedrop

onedrop

Posted
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I disagree. In fact I believe that if by some divine miracle the Redskins actually won the division next year that this site's traffic would go through the roof. More fans would be excited if the Skins gave us something to be excited about.

THIS site yes. But the other media has more to publish and yak about when the Skins are in turmoil and suck.

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MikeBass

MikeBass

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Posted

I am 100% for keeping the head of our new regime until they can right the ship, Allen seems to be a competent GM, Big Shanahan is a proven winner, Little Shanahan offense has been proven to work (with the right personnel). Heck although I am a bit skeptical of Haslett, even he may be deserving of another year.

That being said, failure necessitates change and there is no used in having a pretty head if the body is failing. With that, I think that our fans have every right to clamor but the clamoring should be re-directed to the player personnel rather than the front office.

Yes, we should be patient but we should also want and keep wanting until the body as well as the head is ready to excel in this league.

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TSO

TSO

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I know I'm a bit late to the party here, but excellent post.

I think with the hiring of Allen and Shanahan, the fans input has officially become meaningless and the media is helpless now because of it. Their negativity can still obviously create irrationality in the fanbase, but no longer will it have an affect on the team since Snyder won't be able to force any issues himself. Snyder obviously cared too much what the fans thought, or at least thought too much like a fan, and that's what hurt us a bunch of times. Now, it's clear Shanahan and Allen both don't give a crap how we think or what kind of ideas are pervasive within the media, they're going to do it their way.

So, to answer your questions at the end of your post, I think as long as Shanahan/Allen are here we'll be fine in that regard. There will be no influence other than theirs. The only way that could change is if we continue to lose or get dominated in games with no end in sight, and Snyder might panic enough to break that trust he has right now. Shanahan will bolt in an instant if he feels Snyder is encroaching, and we could go back to square one. I think that's a real long shot, though, so I'm not worried in the least bit. :)

---------- Post added December-8th-2010 at 02:03 PM ----------

agree with the OP 110%. good thread.

again, i truly believe its because this town itself cannot handle the idea of laying low for a few years to build up. mcnabb is the only player on this team that says win now, the other 52 say rebuild. but the lack of patience is crazy. zorn got 2 years and that was enough, it was clear he wasnt going to work out, gibbs had 4 years which was a good tenure, but shanahan has had 3/4 of 1 season and people are already turned on him. its crazy.

I agree, but I'd even go so far as saying McNabb doesn't say win now. More like "win next season or two or three", you know? I don't see this aging QB everyone else sees, worrying he's just going to drop off a cliff. Guy is in better shape than most rookie QBs and though he does get injured (as he has throughout his career), that has more to do with the way he plays than his age. He's not going to just go down fast once there's pressure, and he will take a hit for that extra second to make a throw. He's a big body and uses that to his advantage, so he forces Defensive players to either bring him down hard or slip off of him.

I just haven't seen any indication that his arm is any lesser than it ever was or even his legs. Of course, he's not as fast as he once was but for a QB he's got some of the best legs in the league, even at his age. This isn't Mark Brunell, and Brunell gave us a quality QB in 05 until he hurt his knee against the Giants.

So, to me, McNabb isn't even a "win now" move. He brings stability to the most important position on offense and helps us evaluate the other guys around him. Furthermore, there is no reason we can't groom a young replacement under him for the next three years... so I just don't get the fuss with the McNabb trade! (by the way, not saying you're being fussy about it, and you seem to have quite the grasp of what's going on now) :)

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laidback94

laidback94

Posted
Posted

I like the post and agree with a lot of what you said; however, I also think that we as fans and season ticket holders want our team to get back to the years where we competeted for not just a playoff spot but a championship. I do believe we are trying to rebuild, Coach has been bringing in players every week and evaluating them. We have a long way to go!!! We were spoiled early this season with an opening day win over Dallas whom many had predicted to go to the Super Bowl, this gave many fans false hope that we would be vastly superior than last year. I believe we need to look to next year and start evaluting the young talent we have on our team now instead of in the off season!!

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Enter Apotheosis

Enter Apotheosis

Posted
Posted
I've read your responses and I really can't get behind this sentiment. The fans should not influence anything with this team. Seriously.

We have no information as to what's going on. If the fans are in fact influencing the things this organization is doing, we're in a VERY bad spot. Worse than I imagined. You cannot trust in fans who aren't in the building and aware of different situations and circumstances to make any kind of judgment call on what should definitely be done.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

It's ridiculous to believe that fans and the media have absolutely no influence over the franchise. Football is a business and all businesses will feel pressure coming from their clients and customers. They won't completely bend to the will of their customers if their customers are not particularly well-informed regarding the way things work but they will be flexible and accommodating to a point.

Considering what we know about Dan Snyder it should really be no great leap to assume that he may be particularly susceptible to fan pressure, being a fan himself first and foremost. If there is any truth to that idea whatsoever he is the weak point in the picture and the biggest reason that fans have seemingly been able to influence certain actions within the organization. It's probably safe to assume that Bruce Allen and the coaching staff are significantly more immune to any such pressure but they are not completely immune to Dan Snyder's authority.

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KDawg

KDawg

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Posted
It's ridiculous to believe that fans and the media have absolutely no influence over the franchise. Football is a business and all businesses will feel pressure coming from their clients and customers. They won't completely bend to the will of their customers if their customers are not particularly well-informed regarding the way things work but they will be flexible and accommodating to a point.

Considering what we know about Dan Snyder it should really be no great leap to assume that he may be particularly susceptible to fan pressure, being a fan himself first and foremost. If there is any truth to that idea whatsoever he is the weak point in the picture and the biggest reason that fans have seemingly been able to influence certain actions within the organization. It's probably safe to assume that Bruce Allen and the coaching staff are significantly more immune to any such pressure but they are not completely immune to Dan Snyder's authority.

Influence things like stadium ammenities? Sure. Fans should have some say. If fans are influencing anything football related were further from being fixed than any of us think we are. What's ridiculous is the even remote possibility that these guys running the team are listening to fans. It may be happening, but I doubt it. Although I can see how vinny may have been influenced by what he thought the fans may want.

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Enter Apotheosis

Enter Apotheosis

Posted
Posted
Influence things like stadium ammenities? Sure. Fans should have some say. If fans are influencing anything football related were further from being fixed than any of us think we are. What's ridiculous is the even remote possibility that these guys running the team are listening to fans. It may be happening, but I doubt it. Although I can see how vinny may have been influenced by what he thought the fans may want.

As I alluded to in my post, they aren't bending over backwards to placate us but football operations are still at least somewhat influenced by the fans via indirect processes. Please carefully consider the word that I have underlined and try to make connections to see how that would be possible.

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TK

TK

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Posted
I've read your responses and I really can't get behind this sentiment. The fans should not influence anything with this team. Seriously.

We have no information as to what's going on. If the fans are in fact influencing the things this organization is doing, we're in a VERY bad spot. Worse than I imagined. You cannot trust in fans who aren't in the building and aware of different situations and circumstances to make any kind of judgment call on what should definitely be done.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

Fact is, the fans influenced this guy from being our Coach.

fassel_jim1217.jpg

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KDawg

KDawg

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Posted
As I alluded to in my post, they aren't bending over backwards to placate us but football operations are still at least somewhat influenced by the fans via indirect processes. Please carefully consider the word that I have underlined and try to make connections to see how that would be possible.

That's not what the OP was about. The OP, at least to me, seemed to be about direct influence. But hey, feel free to attempt to insult my intelligence by bringing a new argument to the thread ;)

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PF Chang

PF Chang

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I would argue that it's not always a bad thing, either.

I think that coincidentally at times it might not be a bad thing, such as TK's Fassel post. But the vast majority of fan-influenced decisions would be disastrous. Theoretically, ES should be on the high end of intelligent Redskins discussion -- it harbors the contingent of the fanbase that is passionate enough to spend a significant amount of their day discussing the Skins online, and most asinine topics are quickly locked. Yet despite a mountain of evidence against the practice, at least 50% of the board is ready to trade anything for any above-average player from another team.

Then again, one Skins FO moved a pick for TJ Duckett. I retract my case.

In any event, neither the Redskins nor a majority of their fans are willing to rebuild. Until that changes, we will all be forever dissatisfied.

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Gibbs Hog Heaven

Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Fact is, the fans influenced this guy from being our Coach.

STILL shuddering at how close we came to Fossil, uhmmmm, Fassel becoming our HC.

But equally proud of the way the fan revolt stopped it from happening. Zorn had the excuse of not so much as being a coordinator before he was thrust into the gig. That clown would of screwed up as bad and he's 'spossed to be a seasoned vet.

Hail.

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Enter Apotheosis

Enter Apotheosis

Posted
Posted
That's not what the OP was about. The OP, at least to me, seemed to be about direct influence. But hey, feel free to attempt to insult my intelligence by bringing a new argument to the thread ;)

The OP didn't make any statement about the specific kind of influence, he merely suggested that there was an influence. I'm not really even bringing anything terribly new to the thread if you look at ZRagone's other post in here:

I think you have a very narrow view on the power of public pressure and perception and the way it can infiltrate individuals minds even subconsciously. Negativity breeds an aura of it that can affect people in various ways. If you truly think that the fan or media reaction to things play no part look back at the Fossil pick and the odd way that played out. I'm not saying it has a ton of influence, but I believe it has more than many believe.

This is very near to the core of my point that the front office isn't responding directly to the whims of the fan base so much as they are being influenced through less obvious channels. That said, it's your choice to feel insulted. I was merely trying to point you in the right direction.

I think that coincidentally at times it might not be a bad thing, such as TK's Fassel post. But the vast majority of fan-influenced decisions would be disastrous.

You won't hear any argument from me on that point :ols:

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KDawg

KDawg

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This is very near to the core of my point that the front office isn't responding directly to the whims of the fan base so much as they are being influenced through less obvious channels. That said, it's your choice to feel insulted. I was merely trying to point you in the right direction.

Right direction according to whom? You?

I don't believe that fans influence things as much as some people on this forum seem to think they do. But if you guys want someone to blame, by all means, blame us.

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Enter Apotheosis

Enter Apotheosis

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Right direction according to whom? You?

Of course I mean according to me. I'm not all knowing (yet), so I wouldn't say "right direction" in the context of "go this way to find absolute truth" so much as I would say "go this way to see my point of view".

Although I do certainly have fun when people assume I am far more arrogant than I actually am :ols:

I don't believe that fans influence things as much as some people on this forum seem to think they do. But if you guys want someone to blame, by all means, blame us.

Blame can be placed on multiple parties and the fans are without a shade of a doubt one such party. Anyone who only blames the coaches, only blames the players, only blames Snyder, or only blames the fans for this team's struggles is clearly off their rocker.

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KDawg

KDawg

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Posted

Blame can be placed on multiple parties and the fans are without a shade of a doubt one such party. Anyone who only blames the coaches, only blames the players, only blames Snyder, or only blames the fans for this team's struggles is clearly off their rocker.

This I can get on the same page with you on. Do fans share the blame in some way? Sure. But theres a lot of blame to go all around. Putting any kind of majority of blames on the fans, is in my opinion, ridiculous. But to throw random percentages out there, I'd say the fans may account for 5% of the blame.

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OuterBanksTarHeel

OuterBanksTarHeel

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STILL shuddering at how close we came to Fossil, uhmmmm, Fassel becoming our HC.

But equally proud of the way the fan revolt stopped it from happening. Zorn had the excuse of not so much as being a coordinator before he was thrust into the gig. That clown would of screwed up as bad and he's 'spossed to be a seasoned vet.

Hail.

I'm not so sure it's a good thing to be proud that the fans prevented Snyder from hiring Fassel as a HC.

And, sorry, he's not as bad some made him out to be. He took the Giants to a SB and multiple playoff appearances and usually had his teams playing well in Dec. To this day, I don't get the level of hate toward him. Was he a top candidate? No. Was he Homer Simpson, like so many of our fans made him out to be? No.

Zorn was unproven, but he was also on no one's radar. It's telling that he reached the age of 50 without ever getting serious HC'ing experience.

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