The confounding nature of many Redskins fans (or How the Media Pulls out Strings)

[Enter Apotheosis]

This I can get on the same page with you on. Do fans share the blame in some way? Sure. But theres a lot of blame to go all around. Putting any kind of majority of blames on the fans, is in my opinion, ridiculous. But to throw random percentages out there, I'd say the fans may account for 5% of the blame.

I don't know that 5% is a high enough number to represent some of what the fanbase has managed to accomplish (see: Fassel and the veritable fan revolt last season). I'd say that it's no more than 25% but probably closer to 15%, certainly statistically significant but nothing dramatic.

Either way, it sounds a little bit like you agree with the OP's premise. You merely think that it is slightly overstated.

[KDawg]

I don't know that 5% is a high enough number to represent some of what the fanbase has managed to accomplish (see: Fassel and the veritable fan revolt last season). I'd say that it's no more than 25% but probably closer to 15%, certainly statistically significant but nothing dramatic.

Either way, it sounds a little bit like you agree with the OP's premise. You merely think that it is slightly overstated.

I don't agree with the premise. The OP seems to put a very large degree of blame on the fans, I find that ridiculous.

Overstated isn't the proper word, it's not powerful enough.

But now we're talking semantics.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Blame can be placed on multiple parties and the fans are without a shade of a doubt one such party. Anyone who only blames the coaches, only blames the players, only blames Snyder, or only blames the fans for this team's struggles is clearly off their rocker.

Seriously? I think anyone who blames professional sports fans--even partially--for their teams' failures is off his rocker.

The keyword is "professional." A professional sports team is a product. Strip away all of the nostalgia and Americana and the Redskins are a product meant to be sold in order to make money.

Frankly, then, I find your assertion mind-boggling, since the Redskins have one of largest and most passionate fanbases--and one of the most profitable--in all of sports, despite putting a crappy product on the field for almost two decades. Imagine how much the Redskins' profits would improve if they actually did something meaningful for once, in the post-George Bush SR era? That last part isn't up to us.

So how in the world can anyone even think of blaming Redskins fans? Really?!?!?

The last time I checked, the Redskins were still among the most valuable sports franchises in the world.

Unreal.

[Braxford]

Great post. I for one am willing to be patient, I want to see a team develop, not a system, not a few players, but a team. It will take time maybe even five years BUT once that happens that Skins team will be able to not just be cohesive but compete year in and out for a Super Bowl and win them as well. Will Shanny and Allen do it, I don't know but I have not had this kind of faith and hope in the Skins long term for quite a while.

[PeterMP]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/04/washington-redskins-introduce-donovan-mcnabb-after-trade-from-philadelphia-eagles/1

"In a business-like manner, Donovan McNabb introduced himself as the new QB of the Washington Redskins on Tuesday and reiterated that he wants to do in Washington what he could never do in 11 years in Philadelphia:

Win a Super Bowl.

"I'm here with a great organization, an organization that wants to win and win now," he said."

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/04/09/shanahan-believes-redskins-made-great-grab-in-mcnabb/

It is worth remembering that Shanahan's history with quarterbacks age 30 or older includes three Super Bowl championships.

"When I came to Denver, John Elway had already played for 12 seasons and was 34 years old,'' Shanahan said on Friday morning in a telephone interview from his office at Redskins Park. "I got him for years 13, 14, 15 and 16. I felt good about that. I felt going into it I had a minimum of three to four years with him and maybe five. Ending it with two Super Bowl titles made that a good connection.

"When I was in San Francisco (as offensive coordinator from 1992-1994) and coached Steve Young, he turned 34 the year we won the Super Bowl. I almost brought him back to Denver three or four years after he had his last concussion. If not for the concussions, the way he took care of his body, I think he could have still played. Donovan is 33. Age is not a factor.''

http://blog.redskins.com/2010/07/23/mike-shanahan-doesnt-want-you-tempering-your-expectations/

A Shanahan interview:

Q: This town always expects a return to greatness and expects it quickly. Do you have to ask people to dial back their expectations after a 4-12 season and so many changes?

A: "You don't have to temper that. That's what you should expect and that's what the fans should expect. If you don't have that belief, if you don't believe and the fans don't believe, chances are the players aren't going to believe. To go through a season 8-8 in Denver, I didn't want to go out, I didn't want to eat. You're embarrassed because it's your name on the football team. You represent the city and the football team and you don't want to have those tough years."

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/22/one-on-one-with-mike-holmgren-how-to-rebuild-the-browns/

This is an interview of Mike Holmgren:

"FH: What do you expect from the fans?

MH: To go from where the team was last year or were the last couple years, to go to 11-5 from 5-11, that usually doesn't happen. But, I do expect improvement. And the fans do too.

I would ask them to watch how we play. See the effort. See if we're better. Look at what we've done. They're knowledgeable fans. Not unlike the fans in Green Bay.

My hope is that when the fans see us play next year they'll see a team they can feel good about. Ease some of the frustration."

"FH: Do you want fans to be patient or is that not realistic?

MH: They've been pretty patient for a long time. I'm just saying to look for improvement. How that equates to wins and losses, we'll have to see. My hope is that you'll see a change, a dramatic change. Now its a little far-reaching, I think, to think you can flip it tremendously. Miami did it, but then they fell back a little bit this year. It doesn't usually happen that way. "

I'll pretty much guarantee you can't find a case of Homgren talking comparing Cleveland to where Green Bay was a few years before they won the SuperBowl.

When Holmgren says we'll see how that equates to wins and losses, he's sending a clear message. In terms of wins and losses, the team might actually be worse.

[Oldfan]

Fact is, the fans influenced this guy [Fassel] from being our Coach.

I don't know how anyone but Dan or Vinny could know the truth on that point, but even if we grant it, the point isn't relevant because the OP is concerned with assigning blame not questioning the fans influence. Read it again.

ZRagone: Between last year and this year I have truly begun to wonder if the pressure from the fans, largely predicated on the manipulations of a Media whose primary goal is ratings and not what's best for the team, is almost as much to blame for the sad state of this Franchise as Dan Snyder.

Dan Snyder has the power to make the decision, so Dan should get the blame for bad decisions. Leaders are supposed to have a plan to reach a goal and the courage to make decisions aligned with that goal no matter how unpopular.

[Saqs]

A+ post, applause. Love it and concur 1000%.

[ZRagone]

A lot of people having issue with my statement regarding fan influence, and I will give you it was perhaps a bit overstated, is the fact that a "leader" or a "good" team owner wouldn't listen.

When did we suddenly come to this notion or belief that Snyder was any of those things? In the ten years he's owned the team the amount of good will and trust shown to him by the Fans has been relatively miniscule, and for good reason. It is not as if the fan base is not aware that Snyder is NOT a good leader, does NOT always make decisions for the right reasons, does NOT necessarily take actions that are best for the football team.

You're absolutely right, with a good strong leader that knows how to set forth a plan and have the resolve to stick to it, the influence of the media and the fan base is largely negated. Why do we have any reason to assume that is the case here? Indeed, Fans have been saying quite the opposite about Snyder for the past decade, meaning it fails me to believe that they either didn't realize by and large the type of owner we have.

So one could go "But then Dan Snyder is wholey at fault because those are his weaknesses". And that is true, Dan Snyder is at fault. At the same time, when you have a friend you know can't lay off fried food but needs to for health reasons, if you keep inviting him out to KFC knowing these facts then you're a bit culpable as well when he starts packing away the Colonel's chicken. Ultimately, its still the fault of the person with no self control, but his lack of self control doesn't excuse his friend knowingly and willfully putting him in a bad position.

I'd LOVE to have the mythical good leader, smart football guy, plan making, resolute, driven and focused with long term insight owner many of you are talking about as a counter to the notion that fans and media have an influence on things. The sad fact is though that we don't have that, we know we don't have that, and unless one such person buys the team soon we're not going to have that. So trying to refute reality based on a theoretical doesn't exactly work.

[Skinsinparadise]

Dan Snyder owns the team. In his shoes, I would set a goal for the team and make a plan to achieve it. I would pay no attention to the fans or the media. So, I don't see how you can possibly argue credibly that the fans or the media share the responsibility. Whether we have patience or not over the next few years isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

I agree with this point. Whether the media comes on hard or the fans come on hard, Snyder has the ability to be patient or impetuous. Arguably he's been impetuous for too much of his tenure, acting like short sighted fans/media.

You say "the reality is we're rebuilding." I think the reality is that we should be rebuilding but we are not. You don't trade three high draft picks (2,3,4) for a 34 year-old, grade B quarterback and a wounded 29 year-old RT if you're rebuilding. You don't hire Mike Shanahan to rebuild. In his ten-year run, with full control in Denver, Mike went year-to-year, re-tooling, but never rebuilding.

Can't resist chasing Oldfan on his point. Looks like the McNabb trade ends up a 2nd and 4th. the Brown trade a swap of our third rounder for their 5th rounder. Most people on the board for whatever reason missed the swap part of that trade and think its a straight on pick. Hopefully we get a 4th for big Al, a 4th is coming for JC in 2012, I believe a 7th for Tyron. this is not exactly a Cerrato trade most of our picks special. and Shanny said not to expect more trades for picks. Also, we dumped lots of veterans and created a lot of cap room. There is certainly some future thinking going on.

When you want to win-now, you retool. When you want to win championships, you rebuild rosters as weak as ours.

Agree. And its not a one and done exercise. Will see what happens this off season. I'd expect a bigger veteran purge and a bigger infusion of youth.

[Oldfan]

...When did we suddenly come to this notion or belief that Snyder was any of those things?

We didn't, but how does his incompetence become our fault?

So one could go "But then Dan Snyder is wholey at fault because those are his weaknesses". And that is true, Dan Snyder is at fault. At the same time, when you have a friend you know can't lay off fried food but needs to for health reasons, if you keep inviting him out to KFC knowing these facts then you're a bit culpable as well when he starts packing away the Colonel's chicken. Ultimately, its still the fault of the person with no self control, but his lack of self control doesn't excuse his friend knowingly and willfully putting him in a bad position.

You're using a false analogy to justify your position. A fanbase of a half-million people does not have the free will, decision-making capability of an individual mind.

I'd LOVE to have the mythical good leader, smart football guy, plan making, resolute, driven and focused with long term insight owner many of you are talking about as a counter to the notion that fans and media have an influence on things. The sad fact is though that we don't have that, we know we don't have that, and unless one such person buys the team soon we're not going to have that. So trying to refute reality based on a theoretical doesn't exactly work.

No one is trying to refute reality. Snyder is incompetent. That's not the fault of Redskins fans.

[Skinsinparadise]

So one could go "But then Dan Snyder is wholey at fault because those are his weaknesses". And that is true, Dan Snyder is at fault. At the same time, when you have a friend you know can't lay off fried food but needs to for health reasons, if you keep inviting him out to KFC knowing these facts then you're a bit culpable as well when he starts packing away the Colonel's chicken. Ultimately, its still the fault of the person with no self control, but his lack of self control doesn't excuse his friend knowingly and willfully putting him in a bad position.

wouldn't that be likewise meaning that if someone is overweight because of overeating, its not totally their fault, its all those pizza commercials on TV. The fact that people can resist those same pizza commercials, and the overweight person can't -- puts it in my book on the overweight person. What makes Dan's temptations so different from other owners and doesn't falling for temptations show a lack of discipline? Haven't said all that, things might be cool now will see.

[ZRagone]

wouldn't that be likewise meaning that if someone is overweight because of overeating, its not totally their fault, its all those pizza commercials on TV. The fact that people can resist those same pizza commercials, and the overweight person can't -- puts it in my book on the overweight person. What makes Dan's temptations so different from other owners and doesn't falling for temptations show a lack of discipline? Haven't said all that, things might be cool now will see.

First, poor analogy. The Pizza Company does not know each and every individual that may see their commerical, their vices, and the potential problems eating their pizza may cause them. Redskins fans know very well Dan Snyder, his vices, and the potential issues that can come about.

Secondly, yes. I would say that the pizza commercials would be a contributing factor to the person furthering his overeating if he's enticed to eat their pizza by their commercial. Does that lesson his blame? No. Does that make their blame equal? No. Does that mean that they do have some blame though in a general sense that they contributed to it? Yes. (mind you, I am not speaking in regards to the legal definition of blame).

If you get mugged when you choose to walk down a dark alley, in a bad part of town, at 2:00 AM, without anyone else around, flashing your wallet as you do then the biggest "blame" for that mugging is the mugger because ultimately he's the one that's performing the act. However, your own actions hold blame of their own for their contribution of placing yourself in such a worse situation needlessly and knowingly.

Thirdly, the pizza's company goal is to get people to eat their pizza. That means fat people eating it, skinny people eating it, all people eating it. The goal of commercials is to be enticing. They shouldn't necessarily feel bad that they're partially to blame for an overweight person becoming more overweight because utlimately that's helping out their primary goal.

On the flip side, I'm assuming that most Redskins fans want this organization to be successful. So taking actions that end up helping to cause the opposite of that is not helpful. Where the Pizza companies action of "blame" actually works towards their goals, what I'm talking about in regards to the fans works AGAINST their goals.

Yes, Snyder lacks discipline. You're not finding me disagreeing with this...actually I basically said just that, amongst other negative things about Snyder, earlier in this thread. The difference between Snyder and your analogy is that we, as a fanbase, know Snyder's problem. It goes against our interests to feed Snyder's problem because it has shown to hurt its team. Yet, for whatever reason, so many in this fan base continue to stick to the confounding nature of short sightedness, over reaction, instant gratification, and the inability to do anything that doesn't allow them to have and eat thier cake immedietely. It doesn't go against the pizza companies interests to make the fat guy eat more.

[coloradokid7]

Changing to the 3-4 is by far one of the dumbest moves ever for various reasons

The success of the 3-4 in the NFC east division is unlikely. They should have kept Greg Williams. They have the players to have a great defense under the 4-3. Shanny should stick to offense and stick with the saying if it aint broke dont fix it.

[Skinsinparadise]

First, poor analogy. The Pizza Company does not know each and every individual that may see their commerical, their vices, and the potential problems eating their pizza may cause them. Redskins fans know very well Dan Snyder, his vices, and the potential issues that can come about.

The only way I can see it being a poor analogy is if unlike the Pizza companies, we the fans should feel responsible for Snyder's actions, you say that we should feel responsible. But should we? Be one thing if its about communicating about stadium experiences and stuff like that, that we as fans, should help dictate things to a degree as consumers. But if we are dictating trades and personnel moves that would be stunning to me. Should we hesitate before we say something, i.e., what if Snyder reads that thread about lets trade for Vincent Jackson and then indeed actually does it?

If you get mugged when you choose to walk down a dark alley, in a bad part of town, at 2:00 AM, without anyone else around, flashing your wallet as you do then the biggest "blame" for that mugging is the mugger because ultimately he's the one that's performing the act. However, your own actions hold blame of their own for their contribution of placing yourself in such a worse situation needlessly and knowingly.

In your analogy unless am misreading you we are the people that are being mugged, and Danny is the mugger? You say am the one using the bad analogy buts yours is confusing. Are we the ones that are walking down the dangerous alley? If so it would presume that we have a direct pipe line to Danny and are the ones primarily leading him astray with him then making the wrong decisions. Be really interesting if that were true. And it would be pretty odd.

Thirdly, the pizza's company goal is to get people to eat their pizza. That means fat people eating it, skinny people eating it, all people eating it. The goal of commercials is to be enticing. They shouldn't necessarily feel bad that they're partially to blame for an overweight person becoming more overweight because utlimately that's helping out their primary goal.

On the flip side, I'm assuming that most Redskins fans want this organization to be successful. So taking actions that end up helping to cause the opposite of that is not helpful. Where the Pizza companies action of "blame" actually works towards their goals, what I'm talking about in regards to the fans works AGAINST their goals.

Yes, Snyder lacks discipline. You're not finding me disagreeing with this...actually I basically said just that, amongst other negative things about Snyder, earlier in this thread. The difference between Snyder and your analogy is that we, as a fanbase, know Snyder's problem. It goes against our interests to feed Snyder's problem because it has shown to hurt its team. Yet, for whatever reason, so many in this fan base continue to stick to the confounding nature of short sightedness, over reaction, instant gratification, and the inability to do anything that doesn't allow them to have and eat thier cake immedietely. It doesn't go against the pizza companies interests to make the fat guy eat more.

Yeah but if I run with the premise (which I disagree with) that the problem is the fans being short sighted and fed into Snyder's short sighted approach -- looking at it from Synder's point of view which was what I was doing in my post, its his problem that he can't resist temptation when its thrown at him -- hence i found the pizza commercial analogy on point. I am not running to pizza hut when i see their commercials if Danny is, than he has issues. But I really don't think he is indeed influenced so easily.

Your point here is to take it from the fans point of view. That we aren't like a pizza commercial trying to sell something to a consumer. But actually running with this point, wouldn't it be indeed we are, too many of us want him to eat the pizza, we want the trades, the immediate action, etc -- because we don't think it does make him fat, we are zoned in on the tasty pizza and immediate gratfication.

I don't see it aside from occasional spots. I can see how a revolt about a coach and the stuff that happened at the end of last season when the fans were bringing sign after sign to the stadium, etc might have had an influence. But just in general i don't think certain fans push for immediate gratficiation is guiding Danny. It's not like you go to Fedex and see placards that say "trade for Vincent Jackson now" or "Give Big Al the money we need a DT. Pretty much every franchise has many fans that want immediate gratification and the sexy stuff, we all pretty much bemoan losing -- and if Danny is the only or one of the few owners who can't resist the most base instincts of the fans becuase it feeds into his own impulses, that's on him IMO, and its not even a little on us.

What major sport franchise's fans do not crave action, trades, or want to win now? Its rare not to. Why do Redskins fans of all teams have to be sensitive to this? And even if we were is it realistic to control the emotions and thoughts of a fan base? while I am not a huge fan of Danny, I think he's smarter than we give him credit here on this issue, something tells me I'd be surprised he taps into Extremeskins for example as he plots the off season moves or plots his next move based on what the fans are saying on sports radio if it fits into his worst impulses.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

The only way you could possibly blame the fans is by arguing that they're too loyal and should completely stop supporting the organization until the team is sold or Snyder decides to build for the long-haul instead of hiring coaches who like to "retool" bad rosters every year.

Of course, something tells me that you--the OP--would consider this act to be that of a "bad" fan, which makes me realize that blaming the fans in any shape or form here is utterly ridiculous. It's the kind of passive-aggressive rationalization we see all the time in society when people crap on the little man on behalf of the people (or systems) in power.