2010 is the weeding out process: You're either going to fit here beyond 2010 or not.

[NoCalMike]

The more I watch the team this season, the more I feel that the whole "we are trying to win now" mentality is only partially correct.

I think it is true that Shanahan feels this team can be competitive with some of the league's best now, however consistently beat them? I am not so sure.

I have a feeling a lot of 2010 is going to feel like the first month has. A lot of tight games coming down to the final few drives in the 4th quarter.

It looks like to me that Shanahan knows who the established players are, guys like McNabb/Cooley/Moss/Rak/Landry/Trent etc etc....however beyond the core group, nothing is etched in stone.

I think as the season goes on you are going to continue to see guys who we thought of as starters, fall by the wayside in favor of players who better fit the schemes that Shanahan and Haslit are installing.

The two biggest examples to me are Dockery & Andre Carter. Both of them had decent years last year. Well, Carter had an excellent year. However, these also happen to be a couple of players that just might not fit in with the current plans and direction this team is going. Dockery may be better at the Gibbs running style, but that doesn't matter. Carter might be better under Blache, who cares?

it looks like Shanahan/Allen are in this for the long run, and the first step is weeding out the players who do not belong here anymore. This doesn't mean they suck, and/or won't produce for another team, but our coaches are installing systems that cater to certain types of players, and it is pretty clear if you don't fit the mold your days are numbered.

Also in the draft I am guessing we are going to see picks of players that fit the scheme a lot better. You don't change your scheme on offense & defense, and not set yourself back at least an offseason or two to play catchup and fill your roster with players who excel in that scheme. We have some now who are emerging, however some who are falling behind.

It might cause us to lose games or not look as good as advertised in 2010, but I think, and I agree with the approach, that the big picture is more important. Shanahan is not going to sacrifice how good this team could be in a couple of seasons, in order to cater to a few players that we currently have on the roster.

:logo:

[Conn]

Good OP. It might go ignored in the chaos after a game, but I think your thoughts here are definitely worth a discussion.

Shanahan said he's always evaluating his players...and from what I've seen so far, I'm inclined to believe him.

I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Dockery and Carter moved before the trade deadline, or in the offseason. (with permission, in Carter's case, since he has a no-trade clause in his contract).

And I think we'll continue seeing lesser known guys supplant veterans for more important roles as the season wears on:

Lichtensteiger

Armstrong

Kieland Williams

Lorenzo Alexander

Anthony Bryant, when he's fully healed

I'd also love to see Barnes over Buchanon when he's ready, although I think part of the reason that Buchanon looks poor in games is that they put Los in the slot and let Buchanon cover the outside, which is more often than not a starting WR. But they have to have kept Barnes and traded Tryon for a reason.

And in conclusion, I think you'll see us sign a ton of "second tier" guys in FA who will demand less $$ in a very deep FA class with lots of big-name stars.

People will want someone like Merriman, but they'll get an OLB that they've probably never heard of, unless they follow the league more closely, because if you're smart you bargain shop in FA...and I think that Shanahan and Allen WILL be smart in this area. You get cheaper guys who fit your system, and make them look like stars on a non-star budget.

Then, you draft BPA, because you've filled your major holes with Ryan Clark type talent....system talent that allows you to succeed with more "average" players IN a scheme, rather than with stars as individuals.

[PlayAction]

"And in conclusion, I think you'll see us sign a ton of "second tier" guys in FA who will demand less $$ in a very deep FA class with lots of big-name stars.

People will want someone like Merriman, but they'll get an OLB that they've probably never heard of, unless they follow the league more closely, because if you're smart you bargain shop in FA...and I think that Shanahan and Allen WILL be smart in this area. You get cheaper guys who fit your system, and make them look like stars on a non-star budget.

Then, you draft BPA, because you've filled your major holes with Ryan Clark type talent....system talent that allows you to succeed with more "average" players IN a scheme, rather than with stars as individuals."

The Skins, at least, have a bunch of players that will fight tooth and nail to the very end. But compare the visible talent on both sides of the ball with the Packers. Even with so many defensive players out before the game, the Packers D was relentless (Clay Matthews is a monster). The Packers are loaded at WR - - - their starting RB was out but the backup was gashing the Skins defense. Skins need an upgrade of talent. But with few draft picks; and few of the prior draft class coming on; the Skins have to find reasonable talent in free agency.

[Rudechain]

I think the next free agency period will provide a ton of talent at a reasonable price. Basically, your going to have two years worth of unrestricted free agents hitting in one year.

This should mean teams can get much better value given the larger pool of players being available.

[Hitman21ST]

Alexander Lorenzo

Who?

[SkinsTillIDie]

You're right on point. And more than that, Shanahan and Allen are building a roster of guys with the right attitude, a particular attitude that Shanahan invariably sees as the "winning attitude." If you don't have it, you'll be gone (Devin Thomas).

In the draft, I could see Shanahan/Allen drafting players that many analysts/fans will see as "reaches," but they will be players that ideally will thrive within our specific scheme, while also possessing the mental and personality traits (driven, hard working, passionate about football, etc.) that meet Shanahan's expectations. I could see "character guys" being given more of a benefit. Trent Williams obviously passed Shanahan's test, despite the widespread criticism regarding his work ethic within the media.

It will be interesting to see what positions we take with our first and second round picks. On offense, we desperately need talent at RB, WR, and in the interior OL, but these are all positions that Shanahan has been very successful with in plugging in lower-round picks or undervalued free agents and getting solid production out of them. I could see us spending our first round pick on a quality nose tackle, assuming one will be available.

[Conn]

Who?

my thumb must've brushed the mouse pad on my laptop :doh:

[Hitman21ST]

my thumb must've brushed the mouse pad on my laptop :doh:

A likely excuse...

In all honesty though, the only thing I don't agree with you about is wanting to see Barnes over Buchanon. Buchanon is an ideal nickel back, if we would only use him as one.

[Conn]

A likely excuse...

In all honesty though, the only thing I don't agree with you about is wanting to see Barnes over Buchanon. Buchanon is an ideal nickel back, if we would only use him as one.

Agreed, they don't use him to cover the slot, which would utilize his speed. So he gets over-matched on the outside.

[TheLongshot]

You're right on point. And more than that, Shanahan and Allen are building a roster of guys with the right attitude, a particular attitude that Shanahan invariably sees as the "winning attitude." If you don't have it, you'll be gone (Devin Thomas).

I don't know if Thomas had any problem with attitude. His attitude seemed to be good. The problem seemed to be he wasn't in the team's plan.

I was going to wait until later in the week to write this, but this is a good place to put it. People want to call drafts before this one busts, but really we are talking about players who were drafted by a different FO for a different coach. Fact is, when you change coaches, he now has a bunch of guys which weren't drafted for his team.

Lets take Justin Tryon. He's a guy the previous staff really liked. Many people had good things to say about him, including Darrell Green. He seemed to do a solid job last year as a nickel corner and he looked pretty decent in preseason. Yet, he was traded to Indy. How did he fall off of this team? Likely, it is because he's not the type of corner Haslett wanted on this team. It could also have been a numbers game with needing ST players (Buchanon and Westbrook). Being let go from this team doesn't make you a bad player. What it makes you is not in the plans for this team.

Thinking back on it, I find it interesting that 2 out of the 3 WRs we drafted in the past two years were persona non grata early on. It makes me think that what Shanahan was looking for in a WR was different from what Zorn was looking for in a WR, and both had a lot of work ahead of them if they were going to get where they wanted them to me. Mitchell was really in a bad position because 1) he didn't play special teams and 2) didn't have PS eligibility (thanks Zorn!), so the coaching staff decided that cutting bait was the best option. Unfortunately, having those two strikes is going to make it hard for him to have an NFL career. Thomas was saved by the fact that he's a good ST player. Unfortunately, either he was so deep in the hole that he couldn't come out of it or he couldn't make progress fast enough. That being said, I think he will be fine because teams are always looking for good kick returners.

We might see more of this as time goes on. A big selling point on Horton was that he was in a similar defense in college as he played here as a rookie. He doesn't have that advantage anymore and needs to make it on his own merits. Jarmon is another guy who is on that bubble. He's struggling to find a new role now that the team is no longer a 4-3 defense and probably got a bit of a pass due to his recovering from injury. That didn't make these bad picks, just different priorities from the new people in charge. Unfortunately, such is the nature of change and why things have been mediocre on this team for a long time.

[Oldskool]

Dockery will probably be dealt this offseason. Carter has a NTC in his contract but he may agree to a trade if he feels that it would lead to more playing time at DE in a 4-3 alignment.

The more I see of this team, the more I realize that some of the players that are on the squad simply don't fit the schemes being used.

[Warhead36]

The trade deadline is Oct 19th. I'd look to try to deal Carter to a team in need of a 4-3 DE. Our D has looked worlds better with Alexander in instead of Carter.

I'd keep Dockery for now because Lichtensteiger was awful today.

[TheLongshot]

I'd keep Dockery for now because Lichtensteiger was awful today.

I guess I understand that Dock isn't the greatest OL for the ZBS, but it seems more often than not Lichtensteiger struggles out there. Maybe neither is the real solution there.

[Oldskool]

I guess I understand that Dock isn't the greatest OL for the ZBS, but it seems more often than not Lichtensteiger struggles out there. Maybe neither is the real solution there.

Dockery isn't agile enough and Lichtensteiger isn't talented enough, as well as playing out of position. The solutions to the LG, Center and RG issues on this team are not currently on this roster.

[Conn]

Maybe neither is the real solution there.

I'd say this is definitely the long-term answer to this problem. We need a solution through the draft, or at bargain prices in the second tier of FA.

[Ryman of the North]

I'd say this is definitely the long-term answer to this problem. We need a solution through the draft, or at bargain prices in the second tier of FA.

no we need the best possible player, second tier free agents on oline are what we have now, im tired of not quite good enough to start guys, I want solid starters at the least.

[Conn]

no we need the best possible player, second tier free agents on oline are what we have now, im tired of not quite good enough to start guys, I want solid starters at the least.

I'm talking about second-tier in terms of cost, if there is somebody that the coaches evaluate and feel fits the scheme.

I'm mostly just talking about not paying for the biggest named guard out there just to have him...smart FO's look for lesser-known guys who will work excel in a specific scheme. That's how you get all-star production on a budget.

If there isn't anyone like that, by all means, get the best ZBS interior linemen out there.

I won't disagree with you there.

[Ryman of the North]

I'm talking about second-tier in terms of cost, if there is somebody that the coaches evaluate and feel fits the scheme.

I'm mostly just talking about not paying for the biggest named guard out there just to have him...smart FO's look for lesser-known guys who will work excel in a specific scheme. That's how you get all-star production on a budget.

If there isn't anyone like that, by all means, get the best ZBS interior linemen out there.

I won't disagree with you there.

ok I thought you were saying second tier as in guys like hicks who are decent but not starter quality. lick isnt even that tbh, he was a physically limited guy who was cheap because even in a zbs he has issues. there are only a few big name FA guards who would fit here, Mankins would fit well but be too pricey.

[SkinsTillIDie]

I don't know if Thomas had any problem with attitude. His attitude seemed to be good. The problem seemed to be he wasn't in the team's plan.

For a while, I believed that Thomas had the right attitude to eventually excel, as he certainly seemed to be saying the right things consistently in the media. I still wish we kept him and feel that it is both nearsighted and foolish to have cut him, given his affordable contract, superb play on special teams, excellent blocking ability and his vast, vast potential. Given that he is only 23, I still feel that he has some years before he will likely "get it" (Miles Austin took until his 4th year at the age of 25 and is the exact same size and build; our own Keenan McCardell took 5 years; took Brandon Lloyd til now; etc.).

However, upon his release, Thomas' immaturity was unmasked - his distinct inability to grasp the attitude that Shanahan is looking for. "Maybe I just wasn't the type they're looking for. Maybe they just don't want a big-play receiver who can do everything. Maybe that wasn't appealing to them. I mean, I really don't know what it was."

Sure, Devin - we didn't want a "big-play receiver who can do everything." Shanahan had this to say today: "I sat down and talked to Devin many times and told him what he needed to do to be a pro football player both on and off of the football field. And if he does do that, both on and off of the football field, he'll have a chance to play in the National Football League. But until he does that -- he's got the talent. He sure does. But he's going to have to commit to being a pro."

Reading between the lines, it seems like Thomas isn't studying the playbook away from Redskins Park, isn't putting in the extra time outside of practice to make himself a better player. He just doesn't "get it" - and in Shanahan's mind, players like him won't help us win football games down the line. Shanahan, quite clearly, isn't looking for just talent, but more importantly, players with the right mental attributes rather than physical.

It's interesting that Thomas hasn't been claimed on waivers yet. Even the WR-desperate Rams, looking to build for the future, have strongly denied any intent to claim him.

I was going to wait until later in the week to write this, but this is a good place to put it. People want to call drafts before this one busts, but really we are talking about players who were drafted by a different FO for a different coach. Fact is, when you change coaches, he now has a bunch of guys which weren't drafted for his team.

...

Thinking back on it, I find it interesting that 2 out of the 3 WRs we drafted in the past two years were persona non grata early on. It makes me think that what Shanahan was looking for in a WR was different from what Zorn was looking for in a WR, and both had a lot of work ahead of them if they were going to get where they wanted them to me. Mitchell was really in a bad position because 1) he didn't play special teams and 2) didn't have PS eligibility (thanks Zorn!), so the coaching staff decided that cutting bait was the best option. Unfortunately, having those two strikes is going to make it hard for him to have an NFL career. Thomas was saved by the fact that he's a good ST player. Unfortunately, either he was so deep in the hole that he couldn't come out of it or he couldn't make progress fast enough. That being said, I think he will be fine because teams are always looking for good kick returners.

I agree to an extent, but a player like Desean Jackson would excel in any scheme - maybe not to the extent that he has thus far, but much of that is dependent on QB, system, talent in place, etc. etc. Perhaps the most ridiculous element of our last regime is that Cerrato wasn't drafting players for Zorn's scheme. He had in mind his goal of refurbishing our receiving corps. for Zorn's WR-heavy offense, but Zorn's offense relied on short, accurate passes and receivers who could run precise routes in a timing-based system. Malcolm Kelly's attributes were best served in the deep-passing game and was always said to be a poor route runner. His physique is simply not suitable for the quick-strike, short passing game that demands great route-running -- fortunately, if he can ever stay healthy, Kelly's skills should better translate into this offense.

Also, Mitchell was always simply overrated, and has been cut by a few other teams since we did. I'm not sure system has anything to do with that one.

Assuming that the Shanahans are here for the long term, and assuming that there isn't another d-coordinator carousel like there was in Denver, we should be able to fill out our roster with "Shanahan" players over the next two offseasons. And I don't think that necessarily means that we won't be signing "big name" free agents (after all, Shanahan didn't exactly always avoid them in Denver and our salary cap situation is suddenly ideal for a little splurging if need-be... Larry Fitzgerald is a non-franchisable free agent hitting the market in 2011. Just sayin). But Shanahan should be able to build a roster capable of competing for the Super Bowl by 2012, with the assumption that we'll re-sign McNabb. It's not hard to envision Shanahan trading down in the draft, even losing value, to pick up more picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, where he has been adept in finding lineman, backs, and other players capable of contributing on offense.

[Frostx08]

I just dont wanna waste draft picks on wide receivers...save that for free agency. I want our draft focused on an RB and defensive players for the most part

[Conn]

I just dont wanna waste draft picks on wide receivers...save that for free agency. I want our draft focused on an RB and defensive players for the most part

I think drafting a RB is much more a waste than drafting a WR, really. Because they're much more plug-and-play.

Even if you can draft a Mark Ingram, I don't know that spending that high or mid 1st rounder on him is wise when you're not competing RIGHT now...because you're basically drafting a guy who will play lights out for 5-6 years at the most, if healthy. Whereas a WR of equal caliber could be good to go for a decade, especially if he's not a "burner".

[Conn]

ok I thought you were saying second tier as in guys like hicks who are decent but not starter quality. lick isnt even that tbh, he was a physically limited guy who was cheap because even in a zbs he has issues. there are only a few big name FA guards who would fit here, Mankins would fit well but be too pricey.

Agreed, Lich will have to be replaced eventually as well.

[Snarky]

What I love is that Shanahan isn't wedded to a contract or previous commitment. Best player plays -- period. That attitude is totally refreshing. I mean, here we were all worrying about having Willie Parker and Larry Johnson at RB, and suddenly it's Ryan Torain, Keiland Williams and Chad Simpson. Not saying injury didn't play a hand in it, but you've also got Lichtensteiger, Lorenzo Alexander, Brandon Banks, Anthony Armstrong... the list goes on and on.

I think it's just what this team needed.

[LD0506]

Good thread and good conversation on topic :thumbsup:

IMO this is arguably the biggest change that has happened this last year. With Vinnie there was never the sense that he had any overall view of what the team was or needed (among all the other things he didn't grasp well). We kept trying to just plug in parts with no idea of whether or not they were the right parts.

Shanahan is not only looking for guys that fit his scheme but guys that fit the attitude he wants as mentioned several times already. This is a huge reason why we all need to chill TFO this year, there is just so much fundamental systemic change that needs to happen.

The uncapped year handcuffed what the FO could do in the FA market, but overall there has been a lot of change already, maybe the biggest in the attitude displayed on game day. This team looks a lot more serious, a LOT more, and that's the kind of lockerroom you want for new guys to grow in, one where there are no mixed signals or silly BS allowed. That kinda lackadaisical atmosphere hurt some of the younger players we have drafted recently, they need to be mentored into what it takes to play in the pros.

[Burgold]

Going back further, I also like that we signed so many one year deals this year, and even only extended our restricted guys for one year for the most part. After that 4-12 debacle everyone deserved to be questioned and no one deserved to be rewarded or hit the jackpot. This is an a win-now time, but also an evaluation period. This whole year is setting up next year and that spirit of competition is nothing but good.

There's no one who's earned anything yet... on the Redskins. Though there are some who are becoming interesting.