The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It may just be team construction, but the way the Pelicans took off the literal second he went down is troubling.

 

I can see it working from a regular season basketball perspective in DC. But I don't know if suddenly running endless two-man games between Wall and Cousins (which you know would end up happening, particularly with Brooks) does anything to push them past that 50-game ceiling they are stuck at.

 

Here is what I would worry about more than anything. How many weeks until Wall and Cousins are involved in some kind of altercation at 4 AM in an after-hours club on the road. Those two together could create more synergy off the court than on it.

 

Wall has been a pretty good citizen in DC, but Boogie is, well, Boogie.

 

 

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Here is what I would worry about more than anything. How many weeks until Wall and Cousins are involved in some kind of altercation at 4 AM in an after-hours club on the road. Those two together could create more synergy off the court than on it.

 

Wall has been a pretty good citizen in DC, but Boogie is, well, Boogie.

Valid concern.  I've seen mini-docs on our local sports channels going into how Wall is carrying himself off the court.  He's very much to himself focusing on his family and career.  The odds are he will rub off more on Cousins then Cousins will rub off on Wall.  You're right that if anyone is going to be out at 4AM with Cousins it will be Wall, but Wall already knows what he's risking and its more then Cousins has to lose.

[Going Commando]

Wall is a worker and he's a competitor, but he also already got paid and he's definitely a partier.  And you see that play out in some of the eggs he lays during the regular season when he is obviously tired and hungover.  I'm not too worried about him though, because he wants to win.  Badly enough that he'll start **** with teammates, apparently.

 

I am very worried about Cousins because he has proven that he will absolutely tank a game when he's in one of his little moods.  He will literally stop moving on the court.  He'll check out on you.  Plus he's coming off a very serious injury.  Plus he has never been an efficient offensive player or reliable defender to begin with.  I don't know, there are just so many red flags with him.

 

His talent is game changing, so I get the appeal.  He's an antidote for the way the Warriors play as a dangerous face up big you have to guard out to the three point line, who is also a gifted passer, who is also a dominant rebounder, and who is also capable of bullying every single other player in the NBA on the low block.  If you ran him with a playmaking PG like Wall and four floor spacers, he could be an amazing player.  In theory.

 

But damned if he isn't covered in red flags.  If you trade Porter for him, then we are going to be dying on the DeMarcus Cousins hill.

Another thing: there is a very real chance that third contract DeMarcus Cousins is the worst version of him.  Bigs get softer and slower as they age.  Add to that he'll probably feel like crap from now on after tearing his Achilles...  There is too much of a chance that we're not going to get the version of Cousins that plays hard and mean and rebounds like a maniac.  We need young bigs.  Guys who play with vigor and athleticism and can set a hard screen then rim run for a scary finish.

 

God I wish Wall was like five years younger.  If I could be pairing him with three shooters and a big like Jaren Jackson Jr., and coached by a top notch staff running a Warriors-style offense, then I could actually have something.  But as it is now, how do you get a Jackson-type big?  We're on the treadmill.

[pjfootballer]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't know man, Cousins is 7 feet tall and 300 pounds and I'm not sure he's the kind of worker who I'd trust to beat the odds on such a severe injury.

 

Yeah, sure, an achilles is hard on any athlete.  I guess I'm just trying to be optimistic that Cousins will change his ways being hooked up with Wall again.  He has a bond with Wall that he doesn't have with any other player.  I mean, he didn't want to be in Sac-town and he tolerated Nawlins'. 

 

I mean, at this point, the current set-up of Wall, Beal and Porter is just not working. With those three, we haven't shown any improvement and nothing has really changed or gotten better for 40 years. I think we are on the cusp of 50 wins, so I think Boogie might be that player that may put us over the hump.  We may not win a championship with him, but I know we'd be a 50+ win team year in and year out with a chance to advance further.

 

I'd dispute the notion that New Orleans was better without Cousins.  They were 28-21 with him and 20-13 without him. Not really much of a difference and it took a 10 game winning streak down the stretch just to make the playoffs, so they actually fell off when he was first injured.  I think they put up more of a fight against GS (not that they'd beat them) if he was there.

 

I'm not saying he's the savior, but the alternative is Gortat and Ian.  Just trying to be optimistic for once.

Edited May 17, 2018 by pjfootballer

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Another thing to consider: Cousins would be less of a matchup nightmare in the East than in the West. The East has Horford and Embiid and Whiteside and a few other bigs who can cover him out to the three point line and then turn around and make him work on D.

[ksun247]

On 5/17/2018 at 5:41 AM, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

You just made a strong case for Porter's value, and then noted that playing hero ball doesn't work.  And yet you still want Cousins over Porter?  What gives?

 

I don't know man, Cousins is 7 feet tall and 300 pounds and I'm not sure he's the kind of worker who I'd trust to beat the odds on such a severe injury.

We need a big who can score, rebound and ball out. Porter relies on Wall or someone else to pass him the ball. He can't create off the dribble. Besides, I think Porter is the odd man out anyhow. Might as well get someone for him. That's Boogie.

 

On 5/17/2018 at 5:41 AM, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by ksun247

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So, Javale and Swaggy P pouring champagne on each other is going to be weird, right?

[CrypticVillain]

1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

So, Javale and Swaggy P pouring champagne on each other is going to be weird, right?

No more weirder than Sheed and Hamilton celebrating...

[Bozo the kKklown]

On 5/17/2018 at 10:16 AM, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

How many weeks until Wall and Cousins are involved in some kind of altercation at 4 AM in an after-hours club on the road.

This aint the 90s, nor is it the NFL.

 

When is the last time you have seen this behavior from a star NBA player?

 

I am also coming around to the idea of trading Wall.

On 5/17/2018 at 7:11 AM, pjfootballer said:

Achilles injuries are not career enders anymore.  Modern medicine is light years ahead of what it was, plus Cousins is young. If he was 30 or older, I’d pass.  

whose career wasnt drastically changed after an Achilles injury?

[CrypticVillain]

Since Minnesota and KAT are having issues, I decided to go to the trade machine...

I came away with one conclusion...

 

The Wizards roster is a freaking mess.

[Going Commando]

8 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I am also coming around to the idea of trading Wall.

 

I'm starting to accept that we need a fairly major retool, but I believe that it should be done around Wall.  Wall is our best shot at ever being truly good.

 

I've been a Brad Beal fan since well before we drafted him, but if RC Buford took over tomorrow and gave our roster a cold hard look, he would trade Beal.  He would identify the fact that we're paying 25 million per year for a scoring 2 guard who is a shooter with mediocre creativity and floor vision and weak defense in a roster construction built around John Wall.  Do we really need a gunner 2?  If they aren't prolific shot creators, shouldn't 2s be high end three and D players like Klay Thompson when they're in a PG-centric construction?

 

Couldn't we be getting 75% of what Beal gives us by signing guys like Danny Green to the MLE?

 

Next, Wall has this weird thing about Otto that needs to end.  He doesn't respect Otto and doesn't fully comprehend his value.  I'd say the team and most of the fanbase don'y really respect or appreciate him either.  Otto is the only guy on our team aside from Wall who is ideally suited to the modern style of NBA play.  This year, in a somewhat down season from last year, Otto made us roughly 9 wins better.  He is bringing tremendous value to the table, and adding absolutely no baggage.  Great shooting from every part of the floor, excellent defense, solid passing with minuscule turnovers, plus rebounding, sneaky good midrange shot creation as the third or fourth option.  Plus he can play PF with Kelly at SF.

 

You can find two guards who can score but don't create shots for others or play defense.  It's harder to find wings like Otto.  And it's much, much harder to find truly dynamic playmaking point guards like Wall.  Especially since Wall can also be a legit force on defense when he wants to be.

 

The reason this team underachieves is because we're just spending way too much on the SG and C positions, don't have quality options at PF, and have an overpaid coaching staff that isn't good enough to match the creme staffs in Boston, San Antonio, and Golden State.

 

The best version of this team would require replacing the staff, replacing Beal with a vastly cheaper three and D player, and somehow dumping Gortat and Mahinmi for a legit young energy center who plays above the rim and rebounds and defends like a fiend.  Maybe even someone who has a bit of range on his catch and shoot jumper.  Jaren Jackson Jr would be perfect for us, I wish we could trade Beal for him.  Get him and then start reallocating all of that bloated front court spending to the wings for a platoon of guys like Boston and Golden State have.  It would maybe also involve trading Oubre for another wing who is a better passer than he is.  I'm not totally sure what I would do with him yet.  He's the kind of player that would thrive in Cleveland or Houston, but not necessarily in Golden State or San Antonio.

 

I'm against trading Otto for Cousins.  That feels like such an Ernie Grunfeld move, not an RC Buford or Bob Myers move.  Handing the keys over to an inefficient, chucking, turnover machine big who doesn't play consistent defense is the way of the past.  Not to mention he's coming off an awful injury and has a ton of personal baggage.  The way of the future is a big like Jaren Jackson and a boatload of sharpshooting wings like Otto and having the offense curated by a playmaking PG like Wall.

[Going Commando]

Just want to add that Beal could absolutely be a great cog in a modern, Golden State-style screen and move offense.  He has the right mentality and he's a competitor and he's consistent enough to be a workhorse scorer, particularly on a team that lacks any scoring punch at the other positions, like we did for pretty much the entire time Wall was injured.

 

He just makes too much money relative to his position and he turns it over too much and he doesn't see the floor well enough or have a strong enough handle to play lead guard in a great offense and he doesn't defend well enough to add any value on that end of the floor.  He's almost totally neutralized by the trap on the wing so he can't beat doubles for you like a transcendent offensive player.  He's "merely" an All Star like Klay Thompson, except Klay Thompson is playing third fiddle to two transcendent players instead of being the first option.

 

Our cap situation being what it is, Beal is our most expendable quality trade chip.  Replace him with a high value center to compensate for the fact that we're essentially handicapped by a third of our cap space because of what we're paying to three useless, unplayable centers, and we might actually get somewhere.

[Going Commando]

I guess the other option would be to trade both Wall and Beal if you could get two high draft picks in this year's class out of it.  I'd quietly inquire about trading Wall to Phoenix for their #1.  And then I'd try and trade Beal to someone in that 4-6 range.  Then you could get Donkic and Jackson and move forward around them plus Porter, Oubre, and Sato.

[Bozo the kKklown]

4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'm starting to accept that we need a fairly major retool, but I believe that it should be done around Wall.  Wall is our best shot at ever being truly good.

My issue with Wall is that he is 27.

 

How much better is he going to get? I don't see it.

 

This is an interesting article by Kevin Broom.

 

While I don't care too much for his metrics, it does confirm something I have been realizing, he may have already peaked.

 

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2018/5/18/17369726/john-wall-washington-wizards-aging-extension-pattern

[Llevron]

Hes certainly peaked athletically. And that's his game so...

[Renegade7]

6 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

My issue with Wall is that he is 27.

 

How much better is he going to get? I don't see it.

 

This is an interesting article by Kevin Broom.

 

While I don't care too much for his metrics, it does confirm something I have been realizing, he may have already peaked.

 

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2018/5/18/17369726/john-wall-washington-wizards-aging-extension-pattern

 

Your over thinking it, dude is a monster in the playoffs.  It's not about playing better anymore to me, it's about consistency.  He needs to play like that in regular season, we'd get higher seeds and more home playoff games.

 

Wall does have a ceiling, but that's fine most players do. If we don't around him with talent needed to win rings, we wont, it's that simple.  Him getting better at 3pts would be great, but even that wouldn't put us over the top with current roster.

[Going Commando]

42 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Hes certainly peaked athletically. And that's his game so...

 

He's one of the best passers in the game and he's a good volume scorer.  Josh Smith he ain't.

7 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

My issue with Wall is that he is 27.

 

How much better is he going to get? I don't see it.

 

This is an interesting article by Kevin Broom.

 

While I don't care too much for his metrics, it does confirm something I have been realizing, he may have already peaked.

 

https://www.bulletsforever.com/2018/5/18/17369726/john-wall-washington-wizards-aging-extension-pattern

 

I like Kevin, but he has always undervalued Wall IMO.  The Wall of last year is good enough to lead a contender.  I think he was headed for an even better season this year but he got hurt.  I don't necessarily need Wall to get better, except for maybe on defense.  What I really need is for him to stay healthy, to install a better system, and to put a better supporting cast on the floor around him.

 

I like a point guard-centric build where the transcendent player is a playmaker at that position because it makes offense so much easier and versatile.  The only way I think I'd trade Wall is for another PG who has a chance to be a transcendent player like Luka Donkic.

[Going Commando]

I think we've got about 4, maybe 5 seasons of high level play left from Wall.  If you can get a Jaren Jackson on the team now--a blue-chip talent at the C position who can be good during his rookie deal--then that's enough time to make a few runs before the 76ers take over the conference.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Wall has absolutely peaked.  Danny Ainge would’ve traded him yesterday.

[Bozo the kKklown]

31 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Your over thinking it, dude is a monster in the playoffs.  It's not about playing better anymore to me, it's about consistency.  He needs to play like that in regular season, we'd get higher seeds and more home playoff games.

 

Wall does have a ceiling, but that's fine most players do. If we don't around him with talent needed to win rings, we wont, it's that simple.  Him getting better at 3pts would be great, but even that wouldn't put us over the top with current roster.

IDK.

 

How much of a monster would he be against a Boston defense that tells him to shoot and score more?

 

I love Wall, but I am not sure he is elite and ever will be elite.

 

14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He's one of the best passers in the game and he's a good volume scorer.  Josh Smith he ain't.

 

I like Kevin, but he has always undervalued Wall IMO.  The Wall of last year is good enough to lead a contender.  I think he was headed for an even better season this year but he got hurt.  I don't necessarily need Wall to get better, except for maybe on defense.  What I really need is for him to stay healthy, to install a better system, and to put a better supporting cast on the floor around him.

 

I like a point guard-centric build where the transcendent player is a playmaker at that position because it makes offense so much easier and versatile.  The only way I think I'd trade Wall is for another PG who has a chance to be a transcendent player like Luka Donkic.

I love Wall, but he has got to be a more reliable scorer for us. The playmaking point guard isnt in vogue anymore where everyone has to produce points. Look at Chris Paul.

 

8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I think we've got about 4, maybe 5 seasons of high level play left from Wall.  If you can get a Jaren Jackson on the team now--a blue-chip talent at the C position who can be good during his rookie deal--then that's enough time to make a few runs before the 76ers take over the conference.

He is 27 with bad knees who relies on his athleticism. IDK.

 

4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Wall has absolutely peaked.  Danny Ainge would’ve traded him yesterday.

Ainge has Kyrie, so im doubtful of this.

[Renegade7]

32 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

IDK.

 

How much of a monster would he be against a Boston defense that tells him to shoot and score more?

Benning, c'mon, man, are aeriously gonna jus act like the boston series that went games last didn't happen?  He had 40 points 13 assists in game 2 in Boston. You're being too hard on your boy, when he's on he's elite.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Benning, c'mon, man, are aeriously gonna jus act like the boston series that went games last didn't happen?  He had 40 points 13 assists in game 2 in Boston. You're being too hard on your boy, when he's on he's elite.

he had 40 points in game 2, yet couldnt get a basket down the stretch of that game.

 

And we also saw that game 7 in Boston.

 

Wall needs a more reliable jumpshot and he has not gotten it. Because of that, I worry when elite teams tighten the screw and he can't produce.

 

It is great to point to moments, but Wall needs that type of play every night. He not a consistent scoring threat and that caps what he can be and what this team can be. Are we okay with paying nearly 50 million a year for a player like that?

[Renegade7]

28 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

he had 40 points in game 2, yet couldnt get a basket down the stretch of that game.

 

And we also saw that game 7 in Boston.

 

Wall needs a more reliable jumpshot and he has not gotten it. Because of that, I worry when elite teams tighten the screw and he can't produce.

 

It is great to point to moments, but Wall needs that type of play every night. He not a consistent scoring threat and that caps what he can be and what this team can be. Are we okay with paying nearly 50 million a year for a player like that?

Then I guess his averages in the Atlanta series last year don't matter either, or what he did to Toronto the year we swept them. 

 

I agree he needs to be more consistently elite level, but he's playing well enough to earn that money, it's not once in a blue moon.  He set some kinda record for points/assists during first 4 four games of a playoff series.

 

What are you saying exactly?  You want to try and upgrade? He's the only person on the team truly worth what they are getting paid.  

[Bozo the kKklown]

9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

What are you saying exactly?  You want to try and upgrade? He's the only person on the team truly worth what they are getting paid.

I am saying this team is going to have to make a choice about its direction.

 

Is Wall part of that at nearly 50 million a year at age 30-31? I am not sure.