The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Warhead36]

38 minutes ago, StillUnknown said:

 

that would actually fit very well in the grand scheme

To break a curse, you need something crazy.

[Skin'emAlive]

I can't... Nay. I won't give Ernie credit for drafting wall, beal, or Porter. They were lottery pick gimmes.

 

Even in a blowout, Frazier still sucks and Ian gets in foul trouble. 

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

I can't... Nay. I won't give Ernie credit for drafting wall, beal, or Porter. They were lottery pick gimmes.

 

Even in a blowout, Frazier still sucks and Ian gets in foul trouble. 

I don't think Beal was a gimmie. #3 overall sure, but there was lots of debate. Weren't Andre Drummond and Harrison Barnes also available that year? And I remember people loving Thomas Robinson.

 

Don't think Porter was an easy pick either. I remember people wanting Alex Len or Nerlens Noel.

[Skin'emAlive]

Man, everyone knew who we were getting a month before the draft. Same with Porter. On paper, they are all perfect compliments. They are all now living up to their potential, but Ernie has failed to provide adequate support. Giving wall a 40 or 20 year old vagabond is not real help. And giving 60 mil to a guy who can't play after years of nene is laughable. 

[Warhead36]

45 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Man, everyone knew who we were getting a month before the draft. Same with Porter. On paper, they are all perfect compliments. They are all now living up to their potential, but Ernie has failed to provide adequate support. Giving wall a 40 or 20 year old vagabond is not real help. And giving 60 mil to a guy who can't play after years of nene is laughable. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Ernie is some brilliant GM, he is anything but, but the Beal and Porter picks were not easy peasy slam dunk home run picks.

 

Where Grunfeld really screwed the pooch was the 2011 draft. Could have had Kawhi Leonard instead of Jan Vesley and IIRC we were rumored to like him a lot.

[Skin'emAlive]

There were like 3/4 outspoken guys who were high on Robinson/Len etc. and just like Turner, there was no real debate as to who we should have taken. 

 

Randy ruined Vesely. I would still take Vesely in a heart beat over this McCulough guy any day of the week. Man, it still don't make sense. Just run, jump, and dunk it and randy went out there and killed that boy's heart. Heck, I'd take him over mahinmi. 

[Going Commando]

Ernie is a mediocre personnel man who had enough hits to make us good today.  That's not nothing.  But he's a crap leader and we've had multiple organization-wide culture failures on his watch.  He's really really lucky that Ted owns the team because no other owner would have given him this much rope.

5 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

There were like 3/4 outspoken guys who were high on Robinson/Len etc. and just like Turner, there was no real debate as to who we should have taken. 

 

 

That's revisionist.  Otto was not the consensus pick.  Nerlens was and the vast majority of the fan base ****ed and moaned for two years about taking Porter over Noel until Otto showed signs of life against Toronto in the playoffs.

[Skin'emAlive]

Porter was redshirted for 2 years under randy. ( who inexplicably put Webster, Rhas, Pierce, and Temple over what was clearly the future). He lost 1 year of development over it. Noel was coming off knee surgery. It was a forgone conclusion. 

 

I wish I could go back and look at my post right when we drafted him. I know for a fact I was ecstatic and said he would be getting 18-8-2 a night. He's getting there...

[Going Commando]

Ernie deserves credit for having the vision to identify Wall as worth building around, committing to him from day one and never wavering on that, and then surrounding him with other foundation pieces that fit perfectly with him.  Otto and Beal weren't necessarily BPA when they were taken but they are the absolute perfect wings to pair with John, in skill set and personality.  Oubre is a perfect fit too.  And the Gortat, Kieff, Nene, and Okafor/Ariza trades were all good moves and, in some cases, were set up by prerequisite good trades he had already made.  These are the significant positives in Ernie's record.

 

Most rebuilds fail at accomplishing this and the franchise players eventually walk.  Ernie pulled off a successful rebuild.  That means he's at worst average.

[Skin'emAlive]

He made other good moves prior to the wall era as well. Arenas, Butler, and Stevenson were great moves. ( oubre and smith are also turning into a great finds). But the issue is he hasn't shown what it takes to win it all. We need an athletic big who can rebound, run, and jump for put backs. Yet he traded a 1st for a half season bojan rental. And instead of using the picks to get a good piece. They are used to fix obvious roster issues. That one issue right there could cost us the chance to win it all. 

 

 

[Hersh]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Y'all hate on Grunfeld but he's gonna have this town's first conference finalist in 20 years.

 

That's an impressive feat....for a GM not 15 years into his tenure. 

[Going Commando]

It's not enough to make the right draft pick either.  There were a lot of pitfalls with each of our core pieces after they were drafted that Ernie successfully avoided too.  Stuff that a lot of the fan base was behind that would have been a build-destroying disaster.  Stuff like trading Wall before and even after he got his first contract extension.  Letting Beal walk or trading him for any number of poor/sketchy returns.  Letting Otto walk or trading him.  Fans have been trading these guys for any flavor of the month role player or low upside big that happens to capture their fancy at the moment since day one.

 

Most of the fanbase would have let Beal walk and there were similar doubts about Otto when it was his turn to sign an extension.  And I can guarantee the fan base is going to do the same thing when it's time to pay Kelly.  And a shocking number of NBA executives are as dumb as fans when it comes to stuff like this.

 

Keeping a young core of draft picks together long enough for them to hit their prime and become a power team is actually one of the hardest things for GMs to pull off.  Avoiding the disastrous move that destroys your foundation is no gimme because most people can rationalize any terrible decision with horrible short term thinking when the immediate returns aren't good.  Strategic patience is the hard road even when it's the rational one.

[Skin'emAlive]

Man.. Not a single person was down for letting wall/beal/porter walk. And although I was down for a trade. And I'm still of the opinion that Cousins instead of Beal would make us a better team. 

[Hersh]

EG is a mediocre GM that has the benefit of being employed by an apathetic team owner. This revisionist history is just that. Wall and Beal were no brainer picks by anyone. Most people even thought Porter would be the pick by the Wiz. I guess not messing those up is a good thing, but he's gone through players and coaches and still can't put together a good bench in all these years. He extended Randy Wittman based on a good playoff series when everyone knew it was a mistake. Anyway, hopefully they do make the finals in the next couple years. 

[StillUnknown]

Grunfeld could and should have been fired with cause for about 10 different things

 

The man has been here 15 years and the absolute best he has produced is advancing to the 2nd round. 15 years, round 2.

 

The fact that he still enjoys employment only proves that he is in fact unkillable

[TradeTheBeal!]

#rant

 

I was in the stands at the Cap Centre with my father in 79 when the Sonics won the title.  I am a lifer.  I turn 48 soon.  I grow increasingly weary of 30-something, Arenas-era glory boys that wanna tell me all about how Grunfeld is awful.  You don't know ****.

 

Children...we ain't the Lakers.  I've waited 30 years for this window to open again...and open it has.  Starting right now, this is a 50 win team for the next 4-6 years and Grunfeld's fingerprints are all over it.  We can have laughs, and post pics, and commiserate when necessary.  But don't take it for granted.

 

Seriously.  These are the good old days.  If you wanna spend all of this precious time bashing Ernie because your middle school hero crack-piped himself outta the league at 31 years old and Bron became the GOAT, be my guest.  

 

But know this...I am Bullets OG and I am ES OG.  This is a championship run.  Your wizznutzz/2006 hot takes don't mean **** to me.  I will push back and I roll much deeper than you.  

 

53 wins. #2 seed.

 

#rantover

 

 

[StillUnknown]

Sounds like stockholm syndrome

[Destino]

I'm fully capable of both grumbling about Grunfeld and enjoying the heck out of this team.  I am a Washington sports fan, after all.  A villain upon which to heap blame when things invariably go wrong is a requirement.  You will not take from me that which I require.  

 

Besides, it's not like I chose to hate Grunfeld at random.  He's earned his ticket out of town many times over by now.  Just wait until he trades another 1st round pick, and he will, then we'll have this discussion again.  My truth is undeniable.  

[Skin'emAlive]

I actually liked the pickup of bogs. But the fact that he isn't here now means we traded a first to get out of a contract of a guy Ernie scouted and signed months before. An end of the bench role player at that! 

 

Im OK with the trade of the first if it's for cousins or something equivalent. 

[Going Commando]

5 hours ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Man.. Not a single person was down for letting wall/beal/porter walk. And although I was down for a trade. And I'm still of the opinion that Cousins instead of Beal would make us a better team. 

 

.  How much time do you spend talking to other Wizards fans?  EVERYONE wanted to let Beal walk.  Including a majority of the people who frequent this thread. Otto's free agency was only five months ago, I don't think I'm going to have to go back that far to find people wanting to let him walk.  And the only reason he didn't get it worse was because Wall and Beal working out shielded him from criticism.  And I don't have to go back more than two weeks on BF, reddit, or RealGM to find the people who wanted to let him walk.

 

I didn't say people wanted to let Wall walk.  He's never hit free agency.  People are still trying to trade him though.  I saw a proposal two weeks ago to trade Wall for Anthony Davis.  That's better than the the awful proposals from before but it shows how fickle we fans are, and how hard it is to commit to a build and see it through.

[Going Commando]

Also I'm not exempting myself from criticism of being a victim of awful short-sighted thinking and losing faith in the build.  I suggested some ****ing terrible trades over the years.  If I had been in charge, the team would suck.  My point is that I recognize how difficult it is to formulate and commit to a good plan and pull it off and that even NBA executives suck at doing it.  Anyone who thinks our rebuild was a gimme at any point doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Llevron]

5 hours ago, Destino said:

I'm fully capable of both grumbling about Grunfeld and enjoying the heck out of this team.  I am a Washington sports fan, after all.  A villain upon which to heap blame when things invariably go wrong is a requirement.  You will not take from me that which I require.  

 

Besides, it's not like I chose to hate Grunfeld at random.  He's earned his ticket out of town many times over by now.  Just wait until he trades another 1st round pick, and he will, then we'll have this discussion again.  My truth is undeniable.  

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone could feel different lol

[Destino]

Steve, Ernie isn't measured against random fans (us) proposing bad trades or ideas. He's measured against other GMs and his own past.  He has twice built exciting teams that fizzles out in the playoffs and doesn't seem to have any ideas on how to break through to contender status.  

 

Even if you like the job he's done you have to recognize that it's not enough.  We have a window and he either knows how to open it, or he's taken us as far as he can.  I'd argue his disastrous off-season slammed did more to close it than build a contender.

[Going Commando]

15 minutes ago, Destino said:

Steve, Ernie isn't measured against random fans (us) proposing bad trades or ideas. He's measured against other GMs and his own past.  He has twice built exciting teams that fizzles out in the playoffs and doesn't seem to have any ideas on how to break through to contender status.  

 

Even if you like the job he's done you have to recognize that it's not enough.  We have a window and he either knows how to open it, or he's taken us as far as he can.  I'd argue his disastrous off-season slammed did more to close it than build a contender.

 

We've got a Big 3 locked up long term.  Trade Mahinmi and you've fixed the 2016 offseason.  TTB is right, we're entering a championship run window that's going to last for the next 5 or 6 years.  This is the best place the franchise has been in since 1978.  And the reason we've fizzled with tough second round outs for these past three playoff runs is because we played one seeds who were better than us, even if just barely.  Our best players were in their early 20's, we weren't ready to contend yet.

 

As this team moves into its maturity, they're going to contend.  They have a real shot at making the finals this year.  And the only team clearly above them is the most stacked super team since the merger--if your going to kill Ernie for not being able to legitimately compete with GS then you have to do the same for 28 other GMs.

 

TBH, I don't think the fans who hate Ernie have any interest measuring Ernie against other GMs.  Not in an intellectually honest way.  You know how many other contenders there are right now that were built with four great draft picks?  None.  You know how many there have been in the past 20 years?  Three, not including us, and one of them completely fell apart before they won a ring.  Obviously no fan could have done what Ernie's done but none of the other GMs in the business right now have done it better either except for RC Buford, Bob Myers, and Sam Presti.  The case against Ernie falls apart when you actually compare the quality of the personnel in this building effort to that of the majority of the other GMs in the NBA.  This is a good team.  And it was built the hard way, from nothing, on a budget, and without the benefit of getting to steal some other team's star.

[Warhead36]

I admit that I didn't want to resign Beal to that kind of money. Glad to have been wrong about that. I was iffy on Porter, but the circumstances weren't quite the same as he'd shown me a bit more and we were already looking like a good team(easier to justify paying big bucks for your 3rd star when your a playoff team already).

 

Just sucks we blew all that money on Mahimi. Such an alabtross and I don't see how we get rid of his contract so easily unless we package it with someone like Oubre(no way)or another 1st rounder.