Question about Stephon Heyer

[Hooper]

Guess what: that's probably true of most positions on the 31 other teams in the NFL. You lose a top performer, you are likely to have a big dropoff in talent and you are going to have to adjust to that. Fact is, most players who are going to come in reserve for a LT are going to be not nearly as good. Those that are are likely to become starters sooner rather than later.

Good teams don't go from Williams to Heyer. There's someone at least borderline competent in between. But I don't blame Shanahan or Allen for this -- they did what they could to address the line. Would be shocked if Heyer is in the league next year.

[Spartacus87]

Heyer made two mistakes: a false start and a pretty bad holding penalty. Other than that, He seemed to do alright out there. But, to sit here and blame the loss on him? Really, if Trent Williams played, we would have lost by just as much. The whole team lost this game yesterday.

It's not just the obvious things that Heyer screws up, like penalties. It's the way he gets pushed back on running plays, gives up pressure on McNabb, and most noticeably- we had to keep Cooley in to block with Heyer for almost the entire game.

Heyer is so bad at OT, we have to keep one of our only offensive weapons limited in the gameplan to help out with blocking on his side as much as possible.

Against the Rams.

Good teams don't go from Williams to Heyer. There's someone at least borderline competent in between. But I don't blame Shanahan or Allen for this -- they did what they could to address the line. Would be shocked if Heyer is in the league next year.

This.

And it's the exact same point darrelgreenie didn't understand earlier in this thread.

Are backups supposed to be quality starters, while your starters are all Pro Bowlers? Obviously not. They're backups for a reason.

But Heyer is so awful that he not only can't do his job by himself correctly, but the entire blocking scheme has to be re-arranged while he's in to keep TEs with him and move RBs to his side. And with that help, he's still extremely ineffective.

A backup should just be able to reasonably hold their own and require help on a few certain plays or packages or against a certain blitzing scheme or specific pass rusher. Not be a total detriment to the team while he's out there.

People unfairly got on Reed Doughty's case following the Houston game because he gave up some big plays deep. "What good is he, why is he a backup, etc.?" Doughty was just being put out of position for his own particular skill set. Put him at SS and he's a quality backup who can make plays against the run and time some good blitzes, and just generally hold his own well enough in limited packages.

Heyer doesn't have any other position to play, and he's a complete handicap to the offense when he's on the field.

It's not Shanahan's fault, because we could only turn over so much of the roster this past off-season considering how small the FA pool was, and how limited we were in picks, all while switching to this new ZBS that requires specific sort of OL. So Shanahan had to hold on to Heyer for this season just to make due.

But it shouldn't be surprising at all when Heyer is one of the very first guys cut next spring when Shanahan gets another off-season to overhaul the roster. And I'd be shocked if Heyer lands another job in the NFL after that.

[Frostx08]

Chris long's twitter:

"THIS F'IN RULES!"

:ols: :ols:

You almost owed me a laptop just now...just had to clean some orange juice off my computer

[Wyvern]

I'm not a Heyer fan -- at all. When he comes into the lineup bad things happen for the team.

Okay, I understand about the dropoff from starter to backup. But Heyer really shows just how BIG a drop that can be. I don't think he's in the top half of backups, more like the bottom 15%.

The real problem for me is Heyer's pass-blocking isn't good enough to compensate for his poor run-blocking. (And this year, Heyer seems to be even worse in a ZBS scheme; the guy is slow and gets lost in space, especially when he has to improvise.) And it's not just about the mistakes, blown blocking and lapses in performance we see -- it's also about the things he doesn't get accomplished for a positive performance to balance out his negatives. The guy doesn't step up his game at all.

When Heyer's in there --- someone has to help cover McNabb's blindside, and also we can't expect any kind of running game through whatever side he's playing on.

Frankly, I see no significant upside to Heyer except that he's a body on the line, so he's better than the Skins having to play with 10 guys. --What's bad for keeping Heyer on the roster, is that it is preventing us from looking around to find someone else to do the job. I'd like to see them groom Capers or stick Brown over there, and look for another right tackle.

[icbmayday]

He is pretty terrible and should never play lol

[Frostx08]

The problem with you is that there is no middle ground for you with players. In your mind, players are either good or they suck. I guess in your mind, most backups in the NFL would suck, because most of them are backups because they are not starting material. Heyer is always going to have some issues because he's not all that athletic, but he probably does more right than wrong. That is probably despite the fact that we have a brand new coaching staff who has no real connection to Heyer, that they thought he was worth a 2nd round tender and don't mind rotating him with Brown for most of the season so far. Hardly an organization who doesn't think Heyer doesn't belong in the NFL.

I'm just curious who'd you replace Heyer with. Capers? He was a RT in college and looked very much like a rookie. William Robinson? He didn't look all that great in preseason. As bad as you think Heyer is, the other options are worse.

Dude...when you're a backup O-lineman for the Skins...that's a bad sign

Backups are not starters for a reason...that's correct. But they are expected to be solid. In the NFL world...we call that depth. Heyer is arguably worse than most backups

[DieselPwr44]

Ed Simmons.

Raleigh McKenzie

Those are solid backups. We haven't had a solid backup Olineman in that vein around here in years.

[bulldog]

Heyer has been here since 2006 and in his fourth year he is still a weak link when placed in the lineup. He is a false start and holding machine just like the much maligned Flozell Adams and Alex Barron of the Cowboys. I really did think that this year he would be cut in camp and the team would sign a veteran OT to backup Trent Williams and Jammal Brown.

He cost us in the Rams game with TWO poor plays in the Rams' end of the field.

[mi6]

He made the cut this year because Shanahan couldn't replace the entire OL in the one season, especially with how limited the FA market was and how few draft picks we had to work with.

I can promise you that after this year, Heyer will be given his papers and sent packing.

I also have no idea what you mean by "He was great, he would have been drafted in the 1st round." Are you trying to imply that Heyer would have been a 1st round pick?

And, so should Carols "Stinkaroo" Rogers!

[jfr3ek]

ya, Stephon is serviceable, but he cannot and will not ever be a starting OT ever. Id be very surprised if Trent isnt back for the Philly game. **crossing fingers**

[darrelgreenie]

Heyer has been here since 2006 and in his fourth year he is still a weak link when placed in the lineup. He is a false start and holding machine just like the much maligned Flozell Adams and Alex Barron of the Cowboys. I really did think that this year he would be cut in camp and the team would sign a veteran OT to backup Trent Williams and Jammal Brown.

He cost us in the Rams game with TWO poor plays in the Rams' end of the field.

You know who else had a false start and a holding penalty? Jamal Brown

LoL, about Heyer costing us the Rams game.

There were many factors you could mention: Moore missed tackle on Jackson's TD run, Moss fumble (missed face mask), horrible tackling in the secondary, blocked punt, missed PI call on Galloway, 1-10 on 3rd down, lack of success in the RZ

But yeah sure Heyer cost us the Rams game, yeah! Cut him now!

lol

[ArmchairRedskin]

We ran one receiver routes making Cooley stay in to block. If that isn't an indictment of Heyer's abilities I don't know what is.

[darrelgreenie]

We ran one receiver routes making Cooley stay in to block. If that isn't an indictment of Heyer's abilities I don't know what is.

Sure we've ran 1 receiver routes with Trent Williams too is that an indictment of him? Trent Williams has received help at times is that an indictemnt on him?

Also do you know how many snaps these 1 receiver routes occured?

The entire game?

How often did Heyer get help vs Jamal Brown?

Support your statement.

[ArmchairRedskin]

BS we ran one receiver routes before this week.

You support that statement

Do you ever pay attention to Heyer? He is terrible. Coming from the biggest Jason Campbell apologist I've ever seen on this board, your support of Heyer comes as no suprise. Campbell was garbage and so is Heyer. It's plain as day to anyone who watches the games.

Here's some support to what I was saying

Cooley spent plenty of time on the field. He explained the Redskins utilized their "heavy" personnel package about 75 percent of the time against the Rams, which is essentially a single-receiver package that also includes Cooley, Fred Davis, Mike Sellers and one running back. This package gave both tackles some help and should've enabled the Redskins to better handle the Rams' blitzes.

75% of the time. Ridiculous. Why? Heyer.Plain as day.

It didn't always work, and Cooley wasn't involved in the passing game the way he normally likes.

From that you can come to the conclusion that it wasn't the case any other week, or even if there was a one receiver route, it wasn't anywhere near 75% of the time.

Stop supporting bad players. It makes you look bad.

[darrelgreenie]

I just watched re-watched the 1st half of the Rams game.

And not once did Heyer get help from Cooley or any other TE.

There were 2 occasions when he got help from Lichtensteiger.

But there were also some occasions where Brown got help from Hicks.

Also, you're too busy bashing Heyer to comment that Brown also had a false start and a holding penalty?

BS we ran one receiver routes before this week.

Wait. You really have never seen us run a single WR routes before?

If i have time i'll show you a screen cap.

Do you ever pay attention to Heyer? He is terrible. Coming from the biggest Jason Campbell apologist I've ever seen on this board, your support of Heyer comes as no suprise. Campbell was garbage and so is Heyer. It's plain as day to anyone who watches the games.

Do you have any idea about my position on Campbell? Judging by this statement you don't. The only thing you know is that i disagree that he's the worst QB in the NFL.

And you still haven't supported anything about why Heyer was any worse then Jamal Brown?

Because running a lot of double TE or jumbo packages isn't an indictment of Heyer.

You would have to show Heyer actually getting help which he did not (at least not in the 1st half).

Or why the Redskins would choose to play Heyer at LT instead of Brown?

75% of the time. Ridiculous. Why? Heyer.Plain as day.

I know those formation and the times we weren't running out of those formations we were passing with Cooley, Sellers and Davis running routes.

And there's no way we ran single receiver routes 75% of the time, that doesn't even make sense.

Stop supporting bad players. It makes you look bad.

Why don't you stop attacking people that disagree and support your statements with something more then this.

I'm completely fine with holding an unpopular opinion when that opinion is the truth.

PS-where's the link?Edit: Nevermind found it:

LoL, Reid doesn't mean single receiver as in no other receivers were in the route.

Its obvious he meant a single WR on the field.

Cooley spent plenty of time on the field. He explained the Redskins utilized their "heavy" personnel package about 75 percent of the time against the Rams, which is essentially a single-receiver package that also includes Cooley, Fred Davis, Mike Sellers and one running back. This package gave both tackles some help and should've enabled the Redskins to better handle the Rams' blitzes.

[Spartacus87]

But yeah sure Heyer cost us the Rams game, yeah! Cut him now!

lol

Yeah, he will be cut. After this season.

There's no reason to carry the torch for this guy. Everyone else realizes how terrible he is, even as a backup. You just want to play devil's advocate and preach about your "film study" or whatever that somehow seems to make crappy players better than they really are. Even when you're the only one claiming it.

[darrelgreenie]

There's no reason to carry the torch for this guy.

LoL, because i don't agree that he's terrible i now carry a torch for him?

Everyone else realizes how terrible he is, even as a backup. You just want to play devil's advocate and preach about your "film study" or whatever that somehow seems to make crappy players better than they really are. Even when you're the only one claiming it.

Am i the only one? I mean besides the coaches?

You know there are other people that agree with me b/c you been trying to attack them too.

You guys put forth such sound reasoning.

Heyer sucks because he sucks.

Heyer played terrible and cost us the game but Brown who also had a false start and a holding penalty and received as much help as Heyer received didn't cost us the game.

Makes perfect sense to me, no knee kerk reactions there.

Nope just pure sweet sound logic.

Heyer sucks yeah! Cut him now! Yeah! lol

[Skins-Canes-Mounties]

Yeah, he will be cut. After this season.

There's no reason to carry the torch for this guy. Everyone else realizes how terrible he is, even as a backup. You just want to play devil's advocate and preach about your "film study" or whatever that somehow seems to make crappy players better than they really are. Even when you're the only one claiming it.

I agree. He is gone. Despite claims from some on this board that the offensive line was 'elite' over the summer, we've seen the truth - it isn't. Heyer is on the team because the rest of the garbage that was brought in to compete either wasn't ready (PS) or was cut (or both). Heck, before BMW's injury in early TC, everybody and their brother was speculating that Heyer wouldn't make this year's team. Next year, after another infusion of talent, SH is a goner unless either: (i) he improves dramatically, or (ii) the offensive line is still in the gutter.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I just watched re-watched the 1st half of the Rams game.

And not once did Heyer get help from Cooley or any other TE.

There were 2 occasions when he got help from Lichtensteiger.

But there were also some occasions where Brown got help from Hicks.

That's great, but I don't really care what you think you saw. What makes you think I'm gonna take what you think you saw as what was really going on? You're just some dude behind a computer watching tv angles.

Also, you're too busy bashing Heyer to comment that Brown also had a false start and a holding penalty?

When did I say anything about Brown? You getting me confused with Bulldog? Cuz if you can't keep posters on this board straight, you might want to reevaluate everything you think you think.

Wait. You really have never seen us run a single WR routes before?

If i have time i'll show you a screen cap.

I'm sure we run them, just never 75% of the time.

Do you have any idea about my position on Campbell? Judging by this statement you don't. The only thing you know is that i disagree that he's the worst QB in the NFL.

And you still haven't supported anything about why Heyer was any worse then Jamal Brown?

Because running a lot of double TE or jumbo packages isn't an indictment of Heyer.

You would have to show Heyer actually getting help which he did not (at least not in the 1st half).

Or why the Redskins would choose to play Heyer at LT instead of Brown?

Obviously I have seen your Campbell posts since I commented on them. But I'm not here to debate Campbell, I just use that as a baseline when I read your opinions on players. It helps me to know how far from center I have to to adjust.

I never mentioned Jammal Brown once. Why should I have to defend him?

I know those formation and the times we weren't running out of those formations we were passing with Cooley, Sellers and Davis running routes.

And there's no way we ran single receiver routes 75% of the time, that doesn't even make sense.

Yeah, there were outlet recievers in routes. That's part of the article I quoted had you read it. Doesn't change a single thing about having to stay in max protect 75% of the time.

Why don't you stop attacking people that disagree and support your statements with something more then this.

Your post took a consescending turn at the end, that's why you got repsonse the way you did. You don't like it don't condescend. Simple as that.

I'm completely fine with holding an unpopular opinion when that opinion is the truth.

It's unpopular because it's wrong. I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're not some secret genius who can see things other people can't and everyone else is not a clueless dolt.

LoL, Reid doesn't mean single receiver as in no other receivers were in the route.

Its obvious he meant a single WR on the field.

Let me invoke's Occam's razor here.

The question was asked to Cooley: "howcome you weren't a big part of the offense this week?"

Cooley's answer: "because we were in Max Protect 75% of the time"

So if you apply the theory that the simplest answer is the correct one, the thing that changed this week compared to the two other weeks would be Stephon Heyer.

It wasn't the level of pass rush

It wasn't because of Jamaal Brown

It wasn't because of any other made up thing that you think you see while rewatching the game.

Stephon Heyer is the answer .

Heyer is garbage. That's why we drafted a LT. That's why we were in max protect 75% of the time. Jamaal Brown didn't move because the coaches wanted him to continue working at RT for the sake of continuity. They figured they'd help out Heyer at LT with some backup blockers.

It's all really simple.

[WALL-LE]

id rather have alex barron

[Spartacus87]

Am i the only one? I mean besides the coaches?

You know there are other people that agree with me b/c you been trying to attack them too.

You guys put forth such sound reasoning.

Heyer sucks because he sucks.

Heyer played terrible and cost us the game but Brown who also had a false start and a holding penalty and received as much help as Heyer received didn't cost us the game.

Makes perfect sense to me, no knee kerk reactions there.

Nope just pure sweet sound logic.

Heyer sucks yeah! Cut him now! Yeah! lol

Find me these other people who agree with you about Heyer being a worthwhile contributing member of this team. Even as a depth guy.

What do you define as "sound reasoning?"

It's already been explained why Heyer is trash. He gets pushed back constantly while pass blocking, he's too upright and is usually caught off balance, he can't hold his blocks while run blocking, he's lost in space whenever he's out pulling...he's not good at anything about being an NFL OT. What more do you want?

Of course, there's a reason why John Keim, Ryan O'Halloran, Rich Campbell, and other Redskins beat reporters (who you admit you don't even bother to read, since you watch the games and give such accurate scouting opinions, just like you have before with Jason Campbell, or Colt McCoy, or Jarrett Brown, etc.) watched him throughout the summer and reported on how badly he was beaten around by even guys like Chris Wilson and Rob Jackson on a daily basis. To say that Heyer should be cut as soon as we can afford to isn't knee jerk. People have been saying that he's garbage for awhile now.

It's not hard to see that Heyer was kept because he won the numbers game this past off-season with how small and overpriced the FA pool was and how few draft picks we had to work with.

[TheLongshot]

LoL, because i don't agree that he's terrible i now carry a torch for him?

Don't you know? There is no middle ground when it comes to any player. Either they are good or they suck, and any player who has obvious flaws automatically suck, no matter how long a player is on the team.

Find me these other people who agree with you about Heyer being a worthwhile contributing member of this team. Even as a depth guy.

How about the coaching staff of the Washington Redskins, who thought playing him at LT was the best move for the Rams game? I mean, if Heyer is so awful, why would they have him protecting McNabb's blind side when they have the former Pro Bowler Brown? It probably says something about both Heyer and Brown at this point in their careers.

[Spartacus87]

How about the coaching staff of the Washington Redskins, who thought playing him at LT was the best move for the Rams game? I mean, if Heyer is so awful, why would they have him protecting McNabb's blind side when they have the former Pro Bowler Brown? It probably says something about both Heyer and Brown at this point in their careers.

You mean how they had him protecting McNabb's blindside with Cooley in for the majority of his offensive snaps helping him block, as well as RBs continuously left on Heyer's side to help chip any pass rushers?

Yeah. Clearly, they felt really comfortable leaving Heyer out there at LT.

I don't think it's hard to see that they left Brown at RT because they're still trying to get his feet under him at that position, in building continuity for him and Williams as the bookend guys.

And can we seriously stop with this sarcastic "there's no middle ground, obviously if he's not a Pro Bowler he sucks, amiright?" nonsense? Nobody expects Heyer to be lights out. We knew he wasn't when for another off-season, he was getting killed in training camp by our 3rd string pass rushers.

But it's not too much to ask for him to play at a competent level for a backup either, which is all anyone is saying. Of course there will be a drop-off from Williams to his back-up. But it shouldn't severely handicap the offense like Heyer does.

[darrelgreenie]

That's great, but I don't really care what you think you saw. What makes you think I'm gonna take what you think you saw as what was really going on? You're just some dude behind a computer watching tv angles.

Why would i expect that you wouldn't?

Just because i disagree with you doesn't mean i automatically disregard your assessment.

I'm just a fan no doubt.

But, i'm basically debating a ghost because people in this forum don't really want to discuss what happened on the field.

If people were willing to actually discuss what happened on the field in specifics it would help this discussion.

But, basically because i don't agree that Heyer sucks i'm getting attacked?

Cool, then there's nothing to discuss.

You think that despite Heyer being trusted to start at LT that he sucks.

I don't see how a reasonable person can think that Heyer sucks yet agree that Kyle/Mike Shanahan know what they're doing.

If Heyer sucked he wouldn't have been re-signed.

I was gonna post screen caps, but i can see that would be pointless because you're already dug in on your position that Heyer sucks.

And the reason I mentioned Jamal Brown because he also had a false start and holding penalty but hasn't received the wrath that Heyer did.

I'm sure we run them, just never 75% of the time.

Well, you should be more clear b/c the below post doesn't indicate that sentiment:

Originally Posted by ArmchairRedskin

BS we ran one receiver routes before this week.

Yeah, there were outlet recievers in routes. That's part of the article I quoted had you read it. Doesn't change a single thing about having to stay in max protect 75% of the time.

First of all you didn't link the article and secondly the article doesn't say that we were in max protect 75% time it said that we we're in jumbo.

Second being that we have Cooley and Davis we're gonna be in double TEs sets often because they're 2 of our better receiving options.

Third the Rams rush defense is bad and a package that takes a WR off and puts a TE on the field gives more blockers for the run game.

Fourth if you choose to watch the game again you'll see that the TEs did not give either OT help as the article suggests the OG helped the OT and the TEs their own men.(BTW-Davis was holding his own)

Cooley spent plenty of time on the field. He explained the Redskins utilized their "heavy" personnel package about 75 percent of the time against the Rams, which is essentially a single-receiver package that also includes Cooley, Fred Davis, Mike Sellers and one running back. This package gave both tackles some help and should've enabled the Redskins to better handle the Rams' blitzes.

^^You're taking this statement as if its gospel, Reid is the same guy that didn't know if Rak was ROLB or LOLB.

Its not a single receiver package at all.

Its a single WR package.

Again being that Cooley and Davis are 2 of our better receivers and makority of the time we were passed from the 'jumbo' package they went out on routes which directly contradicts that we were in max protect.

Your post took a consescending turn at the end, that's why you got repsonse the way you did. You don't like it don't condescend. Simple as that.

You can justify posting your response anyway you want it doesn't change the tone.

It's unpopular because it's wrong. I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're not some secret genius who can see things other people can't and everyone else is not a clueless dolt.

Why is it wrong because people on extremeskins disagree?

Because based on both the coaching staff's comments and the fact that they choose to start him at LT would kinda hint that they don't think he sucks.

Let me invoke's Occam's razor here.

The question was asked to Cooley: "howcome you weren't a big part of the offense this week?"

Cooley's answer: "because we were in Max Protect 75% of the time"

First your quote is wrong.

Here's the actual quote:

"I feel like especially on third down, I feel like I'm a viable option," Cooley said during his radio appearance. "There was some stuff going on with the Rams' blitz package. We stayed in and protected. We thought we could get the tight ends and the backs some balls in the flat. Checking out, we felt like they played a little bit soft.

"There were a lot of times I felt like I had a chance. There was also a lot of times that we threw balls and made plays that I could've got balls on, so..."

Where does he say that they were in max protect 75% of the time?

Oh wait he doesn't say that at all; Reid through in the %.

I'm sure if Cooley wanted to say that he would have we all know Cooley.

You're grasping at straws to prove that Heyer sucked but you still haven't come up with anything solid.

So if you apply the theory that the simplest answer is the correct one, the thing that changed this week compared to the two other weeks would be Stephon Heyer.

That wouldn't be the simplest answer at all.

The simplesy answer is they had a gameplan based upon the Ram's weakness which was run defense.

It wasn't because of any other made up thing that you think you see while rewatching the game.

Dude, just re-watch the game for yourself and tell me where i'm wrong.

[jfriedenthal]

^^^^ Is this dude defending Heyer? Brandon Banks could play LT better than him. He's a really nice guy, but man.... it's time to cut ties. He doesn't give us the kind of performance you want, even from a backup. Let's hope Capers is good to go as a backup at LT next year.