Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[PeterMP]

The problem here is, it wasn't land that Israel had conquered like the Brits did in WWI. It was Britian's land which the Arabs inhabited (minority population of jews) during the Ottoman's Empire existence (thousands of years). It was the UN that decided this land should be given to the Jews instead of the people who had been living there longer than the Jews had (and in more abundance). So basically some beauracrats took these people's land and gave it to them as a consolation prize for the holocaust. Israel should have NEVER had the land to begin with which is the whole problem with this fiasco.

You didn't answer my question. What would YOU do if your land and home were stripped from you and given to the native Americans.

or the spanish (he lives in Fl).

[Kilmer17]

The problem here is, it wasn't land that Israel had conquered like the Brits did in WWI. It was Britian's land which the Arabs inhabited (minority population of jews) during the Ottoman's Empire existence (thousands of years). It was the UN that decided this land should be given to the Jews instead of the people who had been living there longer than the Jews had (and in more abundance). So basically some beauracrats took these people's land and gave it to them as a consolation prize for the holocaust. Israel should have NEVER had the land to begin with which is the whole problem with this fiasco.

You didn't answer my question. What would YOU do if your land and home were stripped from you and given to the native Americans.

I'd fight like hell. Which is what Ive been saying we should allow to happen here for years.

Not disputing what you say above at all. But how did the Jews lose this land 3000 years ago? They were forced out by the Romans. Why is their claim not more valid? Mosques are built ON TOP of Temples. So which ones were there first?

[Larry]

Sure. Facts and figures gettting in your way again though.

Lie again.

As has been pointed out to you, every time you've tried to spout it.

[Kilmer17]

Lie again.

As has been pointed out to you, every time you've tried to spout it.

Not a lie. As been shown over and over to you (amongst a thousand other items) that you simply refuse to admit exist.

You can call it a lie a thousand times and pretend things didnt happen, but you're simply wrong. Whether intentionally denying (which I suspect) or unintentionally (which means youre an idiot, and I dont believe that).

[brianm23]

Sure. Facts and figures gettting in your way again though.

The last time you brought up "facts and figures", I absolutely destroyed you with "facts and figures". (with graphs)

Where are YOUR facts and figures. Sources. Anything to back up what you are saying, or you come from Ryman and Gibbs4Life educational institution also?

If they have done everything and offered the Palestine's everything they wanted, then please explain this map.

[Madison Redskin]

Uh, I'd point out that if Israel really, really wanted to kill all of the Palestinians, they could have done so at any time over the last 50 years.

While I don't necessarily think that they deserve any great amount of thanks for stopping short of Holocaust II, I do think we should recognize that they have, in fact, had the ability.

I never said that Israel wanted to "kill all of the Palestinians." I wouldn't say so because Israel isn't a monolith and, even if it was, it wouldn't want to kill all of the Palestinians.

What I said was that a healthy minority of Israelis want to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza. Maybe I should have said, "a healthy minority of Israelis want to forcibly remove Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24021.htm

[Kilmer17]

The last time you brought up "facts and figures", I absolutely destroyed you with "facts and figures". (with graphs)

Where are YOUR facts and figures. Sources. Anything to back up what you are saying, or you come from Ryman and Gibbs4Life educational institution also?

If they have done everything and offered the Palestine's everything they wanted, then please explain this map.

Sure, you DESTROYED me by ignoring the majority of time and cherry picking the timeframe to support your narrow views.

Awesome for you!

Id post soime crazy maps about jewish lands compared to muslim lands in the area but they'd be just as irrelevant.

[Madison Redskin]

Here's another link to a poll that says a plurality, and near majority, of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of the WB and Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/more-israeli-jews-favor-transfer-of-palestinians-israeli-arabs-poll-finds-1.50646

[brianm23]

I'd fight like hell. Which is what Ive been saying we should allow to happen here for years.

Not disputing what you say above at all. But how did the Jews lose this land 3000 years ago? They were forced out by the Romans. Why is their claim not more valid? Mosques are built ON TOP of Temples. So which ones were there first?

Romans?...lol

Try Persians and other assorted B.C. nations. Romans were A.D., and the Persian Empire was about 500 B.C. The Assyrians, Babylonians and Persians all beat the Romans to the punch in conquering their land. Hell, didn't the Jews exit their own land because of a famine? They migrated to Egypt where they were enslaved if I remember correctly.

[AsburySkinsFan]

HA!! Abraham got you all beat!!!

Oh wait...he was father of both Issac and Ishmael....drats!

[Kilmer17]

Well technically, first they left because of Famine, went to Egypt, were enslaved. Then Moses lead them out of Egypt and around the ME for 40 years then back to Israel. Then came the Assyrians, then Persians etc etc. And every time the Jews returned to the same lands. Then the Romans took over around 60 BC. Through about 200 AD. When the Jews ruled Jerusalem again. Then the Byzantine empire conquered it for a few centuries.

Around 600 AD was the first time Muslims controlled the area. They then lost it to the Ottoman empire around 1500. And that's the way it stood til around 1900 when the British took over.

So please explain why the Palestinian (note, there was never a time of Palestinian rule) claim to this land is more valid than the Jewish claim?

[Madison Redskin]

So please explain why the Palestinian (note, there was never a time of Palestinian rule) claim to this land is more valid than the Jewish claim?

I think both sides can make legitimate arguments that Israel, the WB, and Gaza rightfully belong to their side. But, who cares? It's not as though historical arguments are going to settle the matter, or Judge Judy is going to award the land to either party based on such arguments. This Jewish-Palestinian question is going to linger for a loooonnnngggg time.

[brianm23]

Sure, you DESTROYED me by ignoring the majority of time and cherry picking the timeframe to support your narrow views.

I posted the map to refute your claims. Narrow views? Trying to be ironic or something?...lol

Your claim.

They offered damn near everything the Palestinians wanted and their reward was Arafat walking away and bombing them some more. Followed up by the people electing a terrorist group as their govt.

The map is key here. The land in 1947 is what the UN decided on giving to the Jews. That should be the boundaries that Israel now possess, but it's not. They've been conquering more and more land throughout the years pushing the Arabs back. All with the help of the US government (and french previously). We are systematically eliminating brown people. They are gaining more and more land. How is that giving them everything they wanted? This map counters your claim made in bold above.

I think Israel should be praised every day for not simply saying **** it, and taking it all by force.

Looking at the map, isn't that exactly what they are doing?...lol

Id post soime crazy maps about jewish lands compared to muslim lands in the area but they'd be just as irrelevant.

Please do. I'd like to seem some. Hell, I'd like to see anything you have to back up your stance. You talk of "facts and figures" but we have yet to see any on your end.

[Larry]

Id post soime crazy maps about jewish lands compared to muslim lands in the area but they'd be just as irrelevant.

As opposed to your continuous claims that what the Pharaohs did is somehow significant?

[Redskins Diehard]

As opposed to your continuous claims that what the Pharaohs did is somehow significant?

It wasn't what they did...but their celebration. That celebration was significant

[JMS]

Romans?...lol

Try Persians and other assorted B.C. nations.

Actually Israel broke into two Kingdoms after Sol died in 930s BCE, The kingdom of Israel and Judah...

Then the two kingdoms fell individually to two different enemies.

The Kingdom of Israel fell first to the Asyrians in 720s BCE. Judah fell second to the Babylonians and their ruler Nebuchadnezzer in 586 BC. This became the first Jewish Diaspora as the nation of Israel was taken into slavery.

Then Cyrus the Great, the Persian ruler conquered both the Asyrians and Babylonians, and gave the Jews back their lands as a Persian protectorate in order to safguard his boarders from invasion from Egypt ending the first Diaspora. Cyrus the great is the only non jew called Messiah, annoynted one of god in the old testiment. Only the Jews didn't return to Israel, they returned to Palistine, a province of the Perisan empire refferenced in Plutarchs lives.

Alexander the Great ended up invading Persia from Greece. He ultimately also conquered Palistine.

[dockeryfan]

So please explain why the Palestinian (note, there was never a time of Palestinian rule) claim to this land is more valid than the Jewish claim?

Because it was stolen in a land grab during the six day war?

Where towns were bulldozed simply to destroy and memory of their existance? To quell any notion that people that those refugees would ever be allowed to have that land back let alone their destroyed homes laid to rubble?

Does Israel have a claim to

the Golan Heights?

the West Bank?

East Jerusalem?

the Gaza Strip?

the Sinai Peninsula?

Seriously all the Israeli apologists seem to forget the atrocities the Israelis themselves have created. Now that countries like Syria and Saudi Arabia have been trying for 15 years now to get Israel to the table for peace talks.

What do we get? Doublespeak. When Syria discusses peace it's characterized as "deception", but when they talk of preparing for an Israeli attack, it's "threatening" Israel.

Israel wants no part of peace, because it will mean talking about the Golan Heights formerly Syrian Heights. It will mean talking about the West Bank. These are discussions Israel does not want to have, and does not need to have, because the centrist leanings of Rabin are no longer popular. They were replaced by Netenyahu, and then the even more right wing Sharon. Now we are back to Netenyahu again, and there is no chance of any peace talks happening. Not because of terror, or some ridiculous notion that all Israelis will be killed. Those are propaganda, and the 7 million Israelis don't believe it, so why American Jews do is beyond me.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Because it was stolen in a land grab during the six day war?

Where towns were bulldozed simply to destroy and memory of their existance? To quell any notion that people that those refugees would ever be allowed to have that land back let alone their destroyed homes laid to rubble?

Does Israel have a claim to

the Golan Heights?

the West Bank?

East Jerusalem?

the Gaza Strip?

the Sinai Peninsula?

Seriously all the Israeli apologists seem to forget the atrocities the Israelis themselves have created. Now that countries like Syria and Saudi Arabia have been trying for 15 years now to get Israel to the table for peace talks.

What do we get? Doublespeak. When Syria discusses peace it's characterized as "deception", but when they talk of preparing for an Israeli attack, it's "threatening" Israel.

Israel wants no part of peace, because it will mean talking about the Golan Heights formerly Syrian Heights. It will mean talking about the West Bank. These are discussions Israel does not want to have, and does not need to have, because the centrist leanings of Rabin are no longer popular. They were replaced by Netenyahu, and then the even more right wing Sharon. Now we are back to Netenyahu again, and there is no chance of any peace talks happening. Not because of terror, or some ridiculous notion that all Israelis will be killed. Those are propaganda, and the 7 million Israelis don't believe it, so why American Jews do is beyond me.

I think you have valid points in your post but on the other hand, all of the sites named were taken in battle by Israel. They have no obligation to give them back, so to speak. It would make a lot of sense for them to consider the possibility but they are under no obligation to do so.

[Popeman38]

Because it was stolen in a land grab during the six day war?

Ummm, isn't that how pretty much every country came to be? The US was formed when colonists conducted a revolution on British soil. Should we revert to British control if they ask?

I know it isn't that simple, but that is how it breaks down. There was a war. To the victor goes the spoils. You can't retroactively go back and rescind a countries standing.

[brianm23]

Ummm, isn't that how pretty much every country came to be? The US was formed when colonists conducted a revolution on British soil. Should we revert to British control if they ask?

I know it isn't that simple, but that is how it breaks down. There was a war. To the victor goes the spoils. You can't retroactively go back and rescind a countries standing.

Then why did we have a issue with Iraq invading Kuwait? or North Korea invading South?

[Ryman of the North]

Bending over backwards for peace. Peace meaning "we get every bit of land that is any good, you get to live in a camp surrounded by walls." How noble.

Why should they care? Because it is NEVER GOING TO END until they start caring.

Oh wow Really?

1- Israel used to petition for peace regularly, the arabs had zero interest in peace when they thought they held the upper hand, arab leaders like the king of jordan and the president of egypt were assasinated for considering peace with the jews. yet Israel was always trying to achieve peace with her neighbours., this is fact, they shared tech with Jordan on how to reclaim the alkali desert (which 90% of the original land given to the jews consisted of) read about the original Kibbutzes if you dont believe me.

2- anyone who follows this knows that most of the original land given to the jews was garbage land, someone in another thread asked why the map from 47 looked like it did because it made no sense, it did if you realised that the arabs held most of the arable land. (bad pun) now that the arabs have figured out they dont hold the upper hand they still act like they do and hence noone is willing to give in the negotiations.

[Popeman38]

Then why did we have a issue with Iraq invading Kuwait? or North Korea invading South?

I don't know. The Kuwait issue was UN sanctioned. Israel being formed was UN sanctioned. So it should be done. But the Palestinians have been attacking for years...

[Ryman of the North]

It has nothing to do with the "underdog", it has everything to do with right and wrong. Did you see the history of this whole violence? It stems from their land being handed to the Jews by a UN vote. You think that's right? Especially considering that they made up of less than 30% of the population at the time.

Would you sit back and let people steal land from you and give it to your enemy or would you fight for it?

Im am sitting here amused that an american is using this argument at all.

[Ryman of the North]

My history goes back to when it's relevant. You want to talk about "prior history" that goes back 1,000 years, what say we give back the United States to it's proper owners. The native Americans.

Can you show me something relevant to refute the information I showed you or are you just going to ignore it and continue waving your Israeli flag blindly?

actually its closet o a hundred than a thousand but you dont seem to understand that in history a matter of decades is a drop in the bucket, if you get all heated up about plestine why not about north america?

[Ryman of the North]

I don't know because Israel encarsorated all the 700 folks on board those ships and wasn't giving a lot of details like that out. Did you read something new?

actually its been reported that ALL the casualties came from ONE ship that resisted violently, however that doesnt make for a good news story when the media has already blown this all out of proportion,. I guess those violent jews werent so bad when they werent being attacked.