Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

['Skins_&_'Stons]

I can't believe people who can believe the sickos on the specific boat that held the extremist/terrorist supporters. Once again Hamas and their cronies are using "human shields" by cleverly aligning themselves with other non-violent boats that just acted stupidly and followed the most aggressive one, entering disputed waters.

['Skins_&_'Stons]

Israel uses terrorist tactics, yet we don't call them terrorists. They have flaunted human rights violations for years now.

Israel was simply protecting itself. If Al Qaeda was bringing aid to a group of Muslims in New York City, would we (the US) have the right to search the vessel to see what they were delivering and if everything was legit, deliver the shipment ourselves?

The world media loves an underdog. The Palestinians have figured out how to co-opt that sentiment and use it to their advantage. They no longer raid schools and kill children on camera to get noticed. All they have to do is point to Israel and claim abuse and the world just sucks it up like a milkshake. I really hope the world wakes up before it's too late and we have another round of Hitleresque policies somewhere.

[JMS]

And what is it Israel wanted?

Has this dynamic changed? :beatdeadhorse:

http://deanesmay.com/

Clearly what Israel wanted was an end to these peace-nics trying to raise their blockade of Gaza.

If Israel unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, the last Israeli would be dragged from his house and killed sometime next week. If Israel’s enemies unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, the State of Israel would politely thank them, the Palis could live in peace, and the world could go back to worrying about problems less deliberately manufactured and exacerbated.

If I had a gun, entered your home and put you and your family out on the street; how long would you allow me to stay if I set down my gun?

So the solutions there are I kill you, I demoralize you and you leave, or I try to reach some sort of compromise with you. The former two solutions are what they've been trying for 60 years now.

[brianm23]

We HAVE to support Israel, because not supporting them leads to your own scenario about WW3.

Can you give me one good reason why we should support Israel? (i said a good one)

You have yet to respond to my history lesson on the Arab/Israel situation and why they are in the mess they are in. All you have been doing is slinging mud calling people terrorist sympathizers.

[Kilmer17]

Can you give me one good reason why we should support Israel? (i said a good one)

You have yet to respond to my history lesson on the Arab/Israel situation and why they are in the mess they are in. All you have been doing is slinging mud calling people terrorist sympathizers.

Because your history only goes back to the point in which you and the anti israeli factions ike to use. All the while prretending the thousands of years prior didnt exist.

[brianm23]

The world media loves an underdog. The Palestinians have figured out how to co-opt that sentiment and use it to their advantage. They no longer raid schools and kill children on camera to get noticed. All they have to do is point to Israel and claim abuse and the world just sucks it up like a milkshake. I really hope the world wakes up before it's too late and we have another round of Hitleresque policies somewhere.

It has nothing to do with the "underdog", it has everything to do with right and wrong. Did you see the history of this whole violence? It stems from their land being handed to the Jews by a UN vote. You think that's right? Especially considering that they made up of less than 30% of the population at the time.

Would you sit back and let people steal land from you and give it to your enemy or would you fight for it?

[brianm23]

Because your history only goes back to the point in which you and the anti israeli factions ike to use. All the while prretending the thousands of years prior didnt exist.

My history goes back to when it's relevant. You want to talk about "prior history" that goes back 1,000 years, what say we give back the United States to it's proper owners. The native Americans.

Can you show me something relevant to refute the information I showed you or are you just going to ignore it and continue waving your Israeli flag blindly?

[JMS]

You mean you don't know?....Why?

I don't know because Israel encarsorated all the 700 folks on board those ships and wasn't giving a lot of details like that out. Did you read something new?

[zoony]

Fantastic. So we can top every violent image until someone wins, and we can then conclude that bigotry is justified.

Again -- this is what I am talking about. Finding a reason to excuse away conduct by Israelis.

:ols:

you can cut the irony with a knife

[JMS]

That's not fair mardi gras, don't you know it's much easier just to see something and immediately cast judgement

I would hate to have some foreign person judge America on the conduct of a few American college students.

[Veretax]

Did all 50 of the casualties come from one boat?

Are we talking the little raft used in the one pic, or the one that was being boarded? The lack of an antecedent makes it difficult for me to understand to which you are referring.

I understand your point about Israel maybe painting things in a friendly light. However, my point still seems to be missed. People in Gaza were saying how these militants wanted to be martyrs. They wanted to cause a confrontation. It was never about 'aid', it was about trying to turn the world against Israel.

If you think this just happened at random, it didn't they've been planning that flotilla for months, maybe even as far back as last year.

We sent highly trained shooters onto a crowded civilian ship, and they were required to kill 9 people and shoot 40 more... Too bad, so sad.

What happens when highly trained soldiers in tight spaces have to use automatic weapons? casualties. Even as accurate as you can be with the weapons there's still a chance you could shoot someone who wasn't resisting. It is unfortunate that any 'innocents' may have been injured. I feel for their pain, unfortunately this happens in life. THey were either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or were clueless about how they were riding on ship with.

I think Israel set out to make an example of these folks and that's exactly what happenned. I think Israel has a very punitive policy towards Gaza, which shows how seriously they take Hamas, and don't take kindly to third party medlers in their affairs. Never have.

You act like that's a bad thing. If some terrorist group set up shop across the border in mexico declared its independence, and was firing rockets into our territory do you think we'd not blockade and try to deal with the situation? (I'd hope we'd go in and wipe the morons out, but that's my opinion.)

The claim Israel didn't orchestrate the entire confrontation is entirely unplausible.

So you believe Israel is behind Hamas? Is behind these liberal nut jobs that have months before said they wanted to force a confrontation by trying to break a blockade? Sorry, I don't buy your logic.

Frankly though I haven't heard much from Mr. Obama critical of Israel.

Has obama said much about this incident? No, but he's been pretty out spoken against Israel since he came into office, that much I do know.

[AsburySkinsFan]

actually the people who say that up here are from missouri and iowa, it comes from bantam rooster who are generally very aggressive. You Mercans do have a lot of dialects tho lol.

LOL, Don't listen to anything that people from Missouri says, after all they call their state "Missourah" and the state in the Pacific Ocean "Hawayah", they don't know how to talk.

the issue I have with the palestians is that they refused to talk peace when they thought they held the upper hand and yet when Israel is now overwhelmingly more powerful they not only refuse to recognise the change in the status quo but they still act like they are the ones who have the upper hand.

You're right, the Palestinians have not always made the best choices for themselves I don't think that idea is in doubt at all.

[brianm23]

I'm still waiting for Ryman of the North's sources for those claims he made. How's the google search coming Ryman?

[Kilmer17]

My history goes back to when it's relevant. You want to talk about "prior history" that goes back 1,000 years, what say we give back the United States to it's proper owners. The native Americans.

Can you show me something relevant to refute the information I showed you or are you just going to ignore it and continue waving your Israeli flag blindly?

I'll do so as long as the anti semites burn the israeli and american flags and claim Israel commits a crime everytime they protect themselves from terrrorists.

You dont get to be the final arbiter of what is relevant. Only by cherry picking specific dates can you make your otherwise worthless argument have any validity.

[JMS]

Can you give me one good reason why we should support Israel? (i said a good one)

Since we have been such a huge part of creating this problem, we are going to have to play a significant part in finding a solution to the problem. Walking away won't help, rather it will just lead to more troubles and radicals on both sides justifying even more draconian acts on innocents.

Our correct policy is continued support of Israel's security, as well as palistinian security. Tamping down violence on both sides, and trying to grow moderates. Hoping that eventually the moderates will be empowered enough on both sides to make hard agreements which will ensure a fair and lasting peace for all.

You have yet to respond to my history lesson on the Arab/Israel situation and why they are in the mess they are in. All you have been doing is slinging mud calling people terrorist sympathizers.

I think your history lesson is right. The troubles date from the mass immigration of displaced from WWII, who came to Israel and displaced the Palistinians who owned the land and who had lived their for many generations. ( thousands of years ).

Today you have what 5-6 million jews and slightly more Palistinians. Telling the Jews to get out isn't anymore practical than telling the Palistinians too. Folks are going to have to learn to live together, and that's going to mean reaching some sort of compromise. Both sides accepting both blame and merit for the troubles.

[Madison Redskin]

They coulda **** a brick and boiled it. You would've climbed on board.

Like I did with his decision to publicly announce a timetable for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq? Oh wait, I disagreed with that decision. Like I did with Obamacare? Oh wait, I disagreed with that decision as well. Like I did with the Detroit bailout? Oh wait, I disagreed with that decision too. And the list goes on.

Admittedly, I find Obama far less unattractive than the righties at the present time (many of whom have apparently lost their marbles). However, I'm no party-line hack (which I can't say about many on the right, who have a knee-jerk reaction to whatever Obama does).

[Madison Redskin]

Has obama said much about this incident? No, but he's been pretty out spoken against Israel since he came into office, that much I do know.

How has Obama been "out spoken against Israel since he came into office?" Because he called on the Israelis to stop building illegal settlements?

[Kilmer17]

Obama has been loudly silent about it all.

[boobiemiles]

Obama has been loudly silent about it all.

What is there to say? There is an impasse in this situations. No one wants to compromise. Both sides thing they know what God wants. No one is listening, so why say anything? We our own stuff to worry about. What do you want him to say?

[Kilmer17]

What is there to say? There is an impasse in this situations. No one wants to compromise. Both sides thing they know what God wants. No one is listening, so why say anything? We our own stuff to worry about. What do you want him to say?

I actually support him 100 percent in this right now. Not saying anything is the exact right move.

Quickly coming out and condemming Israel would have been a disaster.

[JMS]

You act like that's a bad thing. If some terrorist group set up shop across the border in mexico declared its independence, and was firing rockets into our territory do you think we'd not blockade and try to deal with the situation? (I'd hope we'd go in and wipe the morons out, but that's my opinion.)

Agreed, but here is the problem. Israel can't wipe out the Palistinians. If Israel had a military solution to these troubles the troubles would have been over decades ago. Neither side has a military solution. That leaves a negotiated settlement, which both sides well understand. The only thing in dispute today is terms. All these killings since the mid 1980's are all posturing and pointless.

Given that, all killing is counter productive. Israel thinks they can intimidate the Palistinians into acting right or lowering their demands. They can't. 60 years of brutality hasn't worked, 100 years more won't work anybetter. A mirror argument can be used against the Palistinian policies. Terrorism, kidnappings, and rockets fired into Israel don't work. They aren't intimidating or weakening Israel's resolve, they are fueling it. It just fuels the nastyness on the Israeli side.

It's a self sustaining conflict which many folks including the US have a vested interest in ending.

Frankly I think the freedom flotilla was a pretty good Idea on the Palistinian side. What hurts it is the fact they do have a terrorist organization in Hamas collecting that aid in Gaza. If the Palistinians were doing this type of stuff haveing uniformly renounced violence it would touch a lot more hearts inside and outside Israel I suspect. But that's not the case, and that means Israel isn't entirely in the wrong here.

I still think though that the killings were over the top, orchestrated and wrong. I would preffer Israel just lay out the case in words rather than in deeds... We (Israel) won't permit free form or massive aid going to Gaza. Hamas is a terroirst group and until that changes we are going to tightly and punitively control what goes into that area. Activists challenge us at their own peril. That means we will kill you.

Which is pretty much the message I take from the episode.

[THEREALTOR1]

I would hate to have some foreign person judge America on the conduct of a few American college students.

You know i'm realizing more and more as I get older, that it's much easier for us as human beings to simply condemn others of differing beliefs and opinions, rather than ask ourselves, WHY does that other person think or act the way he or she may. I think once you pull back on the joystick a little, and begin to look at all things from all sides, you can still maintain belief in your own opinions, but you can also begin to appreciate others for theirs.

[JMS]

I understand your point about Israel maybe painting things in a friendly light. However, my point still seems to be missed. People in Gaza were saying how these militants wanted to be martyrs. They wanted to cause a confrontation. It was never about 'aid', it was about trying to turn the world against Israel.

Well Martyrs's is a strong word for politicians from Nato aligned countries. I don't think they were fully comprehending how strongly Israel was going to react. I agree however It was an act of disobedience to the stated Israeli policy, designed to provoke a reaction from Israel or cause Israel to abandon the policy. The more severe the better. Israel played right into their hands, and gave them all the severity they could handle.

Israel's actions could have easily been predicted by any middle east observer. To Israel's credit they aren't typically unpredictable when folks try to flout their policies especially when a terrorist organizaiton is involved.

The activists wanted to highlight how draconian the blockade is, and I'm saying the severity of the blockade demonstrates how seriously Israel takes Hamas, and also highlighted how Israel would react to a 'relief' flotila.

If you think this just happened at random, it didn't they've been planning that flotilla for months, maybe even as far back as last year.

Yep, they also publisized they were coming. I agree the activists were hoping to either provoke Israel into something stupid, or break the blockade. Israel obliged them killing 9 and wounding 40 more. I don't think they were counting on 50 casualties however.

What happens when highly trained soldiers in tight spaces have to use automatic weapons? casualties. Even as accurate as you can be with the weapons there's still a chance you could shoot someone who wasn't resisting. It is unfortunate that any 'innocents' may have been injured. I feel for their pain, unfortunately this happens in life. THey were either in the wrong place at the wrong time, or were clueless about how they were riding on ship with.

You see I don't think Israel is "sorry" for their pain. I think Israel was more than willing to shoot up the flotilla and make an example out of some of these guys as a leason for the next flotilla that might test their will.

Israel orchestrated the entire confrontation tactically. The question is who has the better long term strategy. That's still in doubt.

Still I don't know of anybody who has used non violent tactics sucessfully in support of a recognized terrorist organization like Hamas.

So you believe Israel is behind Hamas? Is behind these liberal nut jobs that have months before said they wanted to force a confrontation by trying to break a blockade? Sorry, I don't buy your logic.

No, Iran is clearly behind Hamas. I'm saying Israel orchestrated the confrontation. Not that they orchestrated the flotillah.

Has obama said much about this incident? No, but he's been pretty out spoken against Israel since he came into office, that much I do know.

I think you would be hard pressed to show that. Obama like most if not all American politicians don't want any trouble from Israel's strong US loby. Obama would like nothing more than to not upset anybody in the Middle east. Obama's problem isn't that he's taking a stand for or against Israel or the Arabs, his current problem is Israeli supporters observe his silence as other than blind support and condemn him for it. Arab supporters observe his silence and believe it's support of Israel. Thus he's taking fire from both sides.

[brianm23]

I'll do so as long as the anti semites burn the israeli and american flags and claim Israel commits a crime everytime they protect themselves from terrrorists.

You dont get to be the final arbiter of what is relevant. Only by cherry picking specific dates can you make your otherwise worthless argument have any validity.

So what is a relevant time? Arabs have been in that area for thousands of years. Can you direct me to some relevant history that would apply in your stance?

Are you jewish by chance? Why do you hate the arabs so much?

[Kilmer17]

So what is a relevant time? Arabs have been in that area for thousands of years. Can you direct me to some relevant history that would apply in your stance?

Are you jewish by chance? Why do you hate the arabs so much?

Not Jewish and dont hate Arabs at all. I hate terrorists. And as long as the Palestinians elect terrorists to be their government, I will attach my hatred of terrorists to those who empower them.

Here's a relevant question.

Which country existed first. Israel or Palestine?

Who has been in that region longer. Jews or Muslims?