Israel raids ships carrying aid to Gaza, killings civilians

[sacase]

The videos do NOT show the 9 people who got killed were the ones carrying crowbars, sticks, etc. Perhaps you have access to videos that haven't been released to the general public.

Ok let's use some common sense here. people are attacking yoru soldiers and beating them with steel pipes and you are going to shoot innocents :doh:

[Ryman of the North]

If Israel faced an existential threat, one which nuclear weapons would eleviate, then I agree with you she might use nukes first. If say Iran got nukes and Israel thought she might use them, I wouldn't want to be visiting Iran.

I can't imagine an existential threat from Turkey. I couldn't imagine an existantial threat from Nato which Israel couldn't negotiate herself out of. The biggest existential threat Israel could face out of this fiasco wouldn't be military. It would be through reduced trade or exports from folks pissed at her. Nukes wouldn't help with that type of public outrage.

Either way though Israel regularly weathers such outrage. She would do so again. If Turkey uses a military escort to the next flotilla, Isreal will either let it pass or bomb the docks in Gaza. Israel isn't dumb enough to make the situation worse by directly threatening the Turkish warship.

you meant alleviate (lol) ok this post I somewhat agree and vehemently disgaree on some of your points.

Turkey could cause issues economically but not ,miltarily, they do have a strong navy but in a coastal battle they would get handled as Israel has a huge capacity for anti Naval air (thats been their strategy to defend their coast. Turkey shares no border so they would have to come through another country to invade and the Israelis have actual physical assets in those countries who would warn them.

IF turkey is doing more than posturing, then Israel cannot afford to let the convoy through as it would make them look impotent and the one thing Israel cannot afford is to look like they write checques that they arent willing to cash. I think what would happen would either be an aerial attack targeting only non turkish ships or a raid on the docks at gaza. but it would escalate this and Turkey is being irresponsible here.

perhaps a question to ask is why Hamas doesnt simply release the soldier who was kidnapped and call Israels bluff and see if they call off the blockade?

[Ryman of the North]

See the big board guys.

What do the rest of the Muslim countries do if a skirmish between Israel and Turkey breaks out and the US is publically on the sidelines?

Talk tough and posture, because militarily there are no longer any arab states that Israel doesnt have relations with who could be considered to be a threat (Pakistan needs a lot of support from the US so they dont get to harsh with Israel and only Iran is still openly actively anti Israel and they are having their own issues at home right now.

[cjcdaman]

I still don't know what, exactly, you think the Administration should have done with respect to this incident.

They coulda **** a brick and boiled it. You would've climbed on board.

[Ryman of the North]

which legal experts? that's a ****ing weasel word, I want specific people, because I can tell you that based on hundreds of years of precedent that one nation may not attack/board/inspect vessels of a sovereign nation on the high seas unless they are in a state of war. Its the whole ****ing reason we fought the War of 1812. This is literally PO-101 stuff, and just because a journalist says 'some experts say' doesn't mean that overturns hundreds of years of scholarship and precedent. Israel is not above international law and quite frankly their zero sum tactics really piss me off.

there was a link already posted, try reading the thread, and the war of 1812 was over a border, and you lost.

[Ryman of the North]

I'm just parroting what I've read. No clue if the article was right or wrong. What has come across is both Israel and their oponents are claiming the law is on their side.

yep agreed.

And some 40 others were wounded. Or whether its a rational argument highly trained Israeli commandos were disarmed by folks on the ships which consisted of politicians from the EU, turkey, and even an Israeli Knesset member.

That's going to be another interesting investigation.

Youve been reading some serious misinfo, the ship that fought was not carrying foreign diplomats, one ship was flying an american flag and the ship that did fight back has several people who have ties to militant groups.

[Ryman of the North]

I don't think they come off as bullies so much as they come off as what my wife would call a "baney rooster", which is small scrappy guy who thinks nothing of picking and jumping into fights no matter the size because he knows that there are two really big guys who swore to protect him no matter what.

you mean banty rooster and i hear that saying a lot it means someone who is pugnacious. and Israel is combative because they have been defending themselves since the inception of theior country, having your neighbours speak openly of pushing you into the sea does that I suppose.

[AsburySkinsFan]

you mean banty rooster and i hear that saying a lot it means someone who is pugnacious. and Israel is combative because they have been defending themselves since the inception of theior country, having your neighbours speak openly of pushing you into the sea does that I suppose.

Well in Canada it might be banty, but here in Kentucky it is baney. :pfft: And here it refers to someone who gets in a lot of fights because they think they're invincible.

Sure there is a ton of rhetoric that gets thrown around about Israel, and maybe some honestly believe in the death of Israel, and when it comes to those threats I 100% support Israel. However, when Israel treats the Palestinians like dogs then I do not support that behavior.

[Ryman of the North]

Well in Canada it might be banty, but here in Kentucky it is baney. :pfft: And here it refers to someone who gets in a lot of fights because they think they're invincible.

Sure there is a ton of rhetoric that gets thrown around about Israel, and maybe some honestly believe in the death of Israel, and when it comes to those threats I 100% support Israel. However, when Israel treats the Palestinians like dogs then I do not support that behavior.

actually the people who say that up here are from missouri and iowa, it comes from bantam rooster who are generally very aggressive. You Mercans do have a lot of dialects tho lol.

the issue I have with the palestians is that they refused to talk peace when they thought they held the upper hand and yet when Israel is now overwhelmingly more powerful they not only refuse to recognise the change in the status quo but they still act like they are the ones who have the upper hand.

[twa]

I am sorry, but I can't find anything heroic about the IDF's actions. But I guess some of us have a "my chosen people, right or wrong" attitude about the situation.

Strange take from my post that totally avoids my point...why am I not surprised?

!

non-combatants???

http://www.investigativeproject.org/1982/violence-and-humanitarian-aid

[Prosperity]

Sheeeeeeit!

[skinfan133]

Yes, that may be a more accurate description of the situation.

BTW, has anyone seen this pic?

This is from the WSJ. The caption for it reads, "FACING A CROWD: A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday."

As an American, my sense of tolerance is repulsed by this picture. It's no surprise, though, to learn that these students are orthodox, many of whom have a well developed bigotry towards Arabs. To me, this picture exemplifies the attitude that some right-wingers, both Israeli and American, have towards Arabs and Muslims, which is why it's difficult for them to feel any empathy for Palestinians.

EDIT: Changed the size of the image since it was so large.

that picture makes me really angry, I can't really describe why, it just does.

[Prosperity]

that picture makes me really angry, I can't really describe why, it just does.

The Israel-Palestine community is corrupt to the core. There isn't much good left in people there. Best to cut ties and let them drown in their own hate. $.02

[skinfan133]

The Israel-Palestine community is corrupt to the core. There isn't much good left in people there. Best to cut ties and let them drown in their own hate. $.02

I could get behind that policy 100%

I'd also like to clarify something: my intense criticism of Israel is not mutually exclusive or tantamount to support of the Palestinians. The Palestinians deserve their own country, but their whole mindset is just so vindictive (or at least their elite's mindset) that there really is no hope.

there was a link already posted, try reading the thread, and the war of 1812 was over a border, and you lost.

I have read the thread. All of it. And I was commenting on his specific cited example. Maybe you should try reading the context.

as for the war of 1812, no, and no. This thread isn't about that so I'll leave it at that.

[Thiebear]

The videos do NOT show the 9 people who got killed were the ones carrying crowbars, sticks, etc. Perhaps you have access to videos that haven't been released to the general public.

There are new videos from both sides coming out.

All of them are not good towards the encroaching side.

According to London's Times, a flotilla passenger told a reporter during a stop in Cyprus:

"We are now waiting for one of two good things — either to reach Gaza or achieve martyrdom."

She was not alone.

Al-Aqsa television, the Hamas station in Gaza, interviewed Professor Abd Al-Fatah Nu'man last week. According to a translation from the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), Nu'man said:

"Yesterday, the commander of the fleet said: 'We will not allow the Zionists to come near us, and we will wage resistance against them.' With what will they wage resistance? With their fingernails. These are people who wish to be martyred for the sake of Allah. As much as they want to reach Gaza, the other option is more desirable to them."

As it turns out, they had much more than their fingernails. Clubs, knives and slingshots are among the weapons found on the ship and seen on the video in attacks on the commandos.

It's clear, though, that the commandos were not the ones looking to hurt people. The Times report indicates passengers on five other ships in the flotilla were trained in non-violent resistance. Israeli forces took control of those ships without reports of any injuries. They were taken to the Israeli port at Ashdod where officials pledged genuine humanitarian supplies will go to Gaza's civilians.

That's what officials said would happen when they urged the flotilla to give up peacefully:

"Delivery of the supplies, in accordance with the authority's regulations will be through the formal land crossings and under your observation, after which, you can return to your home ports aboard the vessels on which you arrived."

Contrast that with the message flotilla participants conveyed from the beginning. Passengers chanted "Khaibar, Khaibar ya Yahud Jaysh Muhammed Safayood" (Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!")

That's a taunt invoking a massacre of Jews.

Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/1982/violence-and-humanitarian-aid

Take THEIR word for it.

[Veretax]

It's not credible that elite comandos were disarmed and forced to fire on peace activist who included eu legislators , politicians from Ireland France and turkey.

We use regular sailers for that duty, yet we are expected to believe israels elite got tasked with the duty and screwed it up?

If you think this is the only part of the story then you've not been reading. there were other boats in the Flotilla. From what I've read all but this one heaved too for them to be boarded normally.

BTW I don't know if anyone posted this, but it appears they actually tried to board the ship with a helicopter first, according to this story from the Jerusalem Post (Video inside) Yes I know that's the Jerusalem Post and hence a pro Israeli Paper, but since some of you are so quick to jump that Israel is wrong before all the facts have been found yet. Sorry.

As for what Obama could do differently? How about either stay out of matters he doesn't need to be involved in, or actually support the people who have been our allies? The guy has insulted just about every Ally we have, and tried to make peace with despots that want us dead. That's just not wise if you ask me.

[twa]

Looks like a welcoming party

security cameras aboard the Mavi Marmara

Video: Flotilla Rioters Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects to Attack IDF Soldiers:

[mardi gras skin]

that picture makes me really angry, I can't really describe why, it just does.

The Israel-Palestine community is corrupt to the core. There isn't much good left in people there.

I've read that at least some of those boys in that picture are Americans in Israel attending college.

If that's true, would the image also lead you to believe that there isn't much good left in the American Jewish population? Or does that sentiment only apply to Palestinians and Jews "over there"?

[dockeryfan]

Israel uses terrorist tactics, yet we don't call them terrorists. They have flaunted human rights violations for years now.

[dockeryfan]

Does Ryman of the North defend Israel for attacking a ship in international waters?

Honestly, Israel screwed up on this and screwed up huge. Innocent lives lost, and they will use it to embolden their cause. Guaranteed. Turkey will use this image like the ones from 9/11 to strengthen their fight.

Example: I can hear you, the rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.

Those words spoken by Bush meant a lot to people. You don't think this tragedy will do the same for Gaza?

This attack will do exactly the opposite of what Israel wanted.

[twa]

This attack will do exactly the opposite of what Israel wanted.

And what is it Israel wanted?

Has this dynamic changed? :beatdeadhorse:

http://deanesmay.com/

There’s only one essential truth worthy of consideration re the Israeli flotilla episode, applicable to every controversy since Israel was established (none of which had any deeper meaning than this latest contrived kerfuffle).

If Israel unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, the last Israeli would be dragged from his house and killed sometime next week. If Israel’s enemies unilaterally disarmed tomorrow, the State of Israel would politely thank them, the Palis could live in peace, and the world could go back to worrying about problems less deliberately manufactured and exacerbated.

[JMS]

If you think this is the only part of the story then you've not been reading. there were other boats in the Flotilla. From what I've read all but this one heaved too for them to be boarded normally.

Did all 50 of the casualties come from one boat?

BTW I don't know if anyone posted this, but it appears they actually tried to board the ship with a helicopter first, according to this story from the Jerusalem Post (Video inside) Yes I know that's the Jerusalem Post and hence a pro Israeli Paper, but since some of you are so quick to jump that Israel is wrong before all the facts have been found yet. Sorry.

To be clear. I don't think Israel is "wrong" here. I think they are lieing. They aren't lieing to cover up the correctness of their actions. They are lieing to mask the draconian tact they decided upon directed at the citizens of friendly allied countries. I don't think Israel thinks they did anything wrong. Hell they are arguing the legality and correctness of their actions and blaming the activist civilians for the outcome, holding their own elite commando's out as victims.

We sent highly trained shooters onto a crowded civilian ship, and they were required to kill 9 people and shoot 40 more... Too bad, so sad.

I think Israel set out to make an example of these folks and that's exactly what happenned. I think Israel has a very punitive policy towards Gaza, which shows how seriously they take Hamas, and don't take kindly to third party medlers in their affairs. Never have. I think Israel controled basically the entire confrontation, just like elite comando's are taught too and are expected too. What occured was entirely orchestrated. The US has conducted 5-6 blockades in the last two decades involving thousands of ships and never required us shooting up 50 unarmed civilians. We don't use our elite special forces to carry out our boarding parties either, we use a junior officer and a few enlistedmen.

The claim Israel didn't orchestrate the entire confrontation is entirely unplausible. The claim their men were in harms way and shot to safeguard themselves entirely orchestrated to justify the shootings. That's what Israel does. Kill people and apaulogize after the fact, sometimes. They are brutal brutal SOB's who think their brutality is their right because of who they are and where they come from.

That's not up for discussion in my book, that's just the way they operate....

The discussion here productively could center around the Blockade. Is it reasonable to punitively blockade 1.5 million people for an extended time, because you don't like the results of their election? Or more accurately because you violently stole their homes and want them to stop trying to violently get them back. Does the popularly elected terrorists who control Gaza, give Israel cart blanche to carry out any punitive policy they decide upon for 1.5 million people. Clearly Israel believes it does and their is some merit in their argument. The dicussion is whether there is a better solution. That to me is the only thing unclear here.

As for what Obama could do differently? How about either stay out of matters he doesn't need to be involved in, or actually support the people who have been our allies? The guy has insulted just about every Ally we have, and tried to make peace with despots that want us dead. That's just not wise if you ask me.

Unfortunately when you use American black hawk helecopters to repell on board ships in international waters and shoot up 50 unarmed US ally citizens, you must expect the American President to have an opinion on the affair.

Frankly though I haven't heard much from Mr. Obama critical of Israel. So far the only thing the United States has done is ask Israel to investigate the action opennly while including the international community. Joe Biden was on Charlie Rose last night and his statements were as positive towards Israel as you could get. They could have spilled out of the mouth of an Lukud politician for that matter. I've never been more disappointed in him, or thought he was a bigger windbag.

[twa]

Did all 50 of the casualties come from one boat?

You mean you don't know?....Why?

[mardi gras skin]

when you use American black hawk helecopters to repell on board ships in international waters and shoot up 50 unarmed US allies citizens...

unarmed: Lacking weapons. A weapon is an instrument used to apply force for the purpose of causing harm or damage to persons, animals or structures.

[THEREALTOR1]

I've read that at least some of those boys in that picture are Americans in Israel attending college.

If that's true, would the image also lead you to believe that there isn't much good left in the American Jewish population? Or does that sentiment only apply to Palestinians and Jews "over there"?

That's not fair mardi gras, don't you know it's much easier just to see something and immediately cast judgement