What Allen and Shanahan Have Taught Us

[Rudechain]

You are just repeating the same worthless stats. I don't see the point in explaining once again why they're worthless. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

pot calling kettle black.

I have posted the stats but you have yet to refute them with anything that is worthwhile.

When a team averages 4+ yards per carry, that's controlling the ball.

When a team runs the ball 300+ times in a season, that's controlling the ball.

What I suspect is that you can't come up with an argument to refute my stance so your saying it's worthless.

It's allright, I think you bring some valid points to the table, but on this one I disagree. Shanahan is known for producing running backs. A strong running game, something that is a staple in a Shanahan offense, is a pretty good indicator of operating a ball control offense.

have a nice night oldfan. cause you and I will simply disagree on this one.

[TSO]

Wow, spot on analysis bulldog! Pretty much sums up a lot of our thoughts here and puts it into a coherent, united front.

[MumboSauce]

Very nice job on that write up, well done.

[KennyKhaos]

Things are looking good here. You can tell there is a plan in place and they are planning on sticking to it. Giving up a pick for McNabb just shows they planned on using one on a QB all along. Hopefully we can make some more moves and get a few more picks. These guys know what they're doing. They'll continue to address the O-line and we'll be looked at seriously even more seriously next year

[Conn]

Wow, spot on analysis bulldog! Pretty much sums up a lot of our thoughts here and puts it into a coherent, united front.

Very nice job on that write up, well done.

Things are looking good here. You can tell there is a plan in place and they are planning on sticking to it. Giving up a pick for McNabb just shows they planned on using one on a QB all along. Hopefully we can make some more moves and get a few more picks. These guys know what they're doing. They'll continue to address the O-line and we'll be looked at seriously even more seriously next year

Completely agreed with all of the above!! Great OP, and great sentiments here.

[wdcredskins]

they have taught us that no players will certain entitlement that they think they have.

[Conn]

they have taught us that no players will certain entitlement that they think they have.

Huh?

[guitarman1974]

Why not now and keep winning with Kyle after Mike???

[Ryman of the North]

1. The Redskins have obvious needs but this front office is going to be very unpredictable in HOW they go about fixing the roster and adding talent. Where Vinny Cerrato and Co. publicly telegraphed every move weeks before they were made, Allen and Shanahan are going to play a better poker hand than that. Evidently, McNabb helped the Redskins work the Eagles into position for them to consider dealing him within the division over a period of time but we knew nothing or very little about that.

2. With Allen and Shanahan you can throw out any previous player evaluations or assumptions made based on what the Redskins did in previous years. Albert Haynesworth may have been Cerrato and Snyder's idea of acquiring another Reggie White, but obviously the new FO doesn't look at AH that way. In fact the acceleration of the bonus dollars to Albert almost guarantees the club is going to part ways with him far sooner than anyone could have expected even 6 months ago. Laron Landry, the #6 pick in the 2007 draft is another player rumored to have been offered to the Eagles and the fact the team would look to deal him before trying to move him to strong safety for a second look may say a lot more about how he is now valued by the organization. Shanahan and Portis said all the right things about each other in Jan and Feb, but with the acquisition of both Johnson and Parker you can see that the team would be quite comfortable in playing 2010 without Portis. His $6.4M 'hit' is guaranteed but in an uncapped year where the team moved $62M in dead cap money off the books and paid Albert over $20M, any failure by Portis to come in and win the job based on performance will likely lead to his being waived. The fact that BOTH Johnson and Parker were brought in shows that what the FO saw on film from the end of 2008 and 2009 from Portis was not to their liking.

3. The Redskins are NOT in complete tear down mode. Yes, 11 veteran players were released early on, but these were players whose performances had declined or who were coming off major injury problems. The addition of a slow but steady trickle of veterans in free agency and now via trade shows the club is not going to limit their search for talent to the draft. Younger players will be brought in to add to the mix but Shanahan is evidently comfortable with replacing a 33 year old DT with a 31 year old DT. While I doubt Washington is looking at 2010 as a Super Bowl year, no towels have been thrown in yet on the thought of a run to a wildcard and being competitive in the division.

4. The Redskins are going back to being value shoppers. A lot of players have been added but as Allen promised it was going to be a steady accumulation rather than a rush at the beginning of free agency or in the period before camp opens. The common theme has been shorter term contracts and the use of targeted incentives. You won't see the Redskins sign a free agent to the type of deal AH received in 2009 again. And I don't think you will see the team commit serious dollars to guys with character questions. Yes, Larry Johnson was signed, but the type of deal he received keeps him on a short leash in terms of off the field issues. You don't play you don't get paid.

The Redskins got value in trading for McNabb. In 1999 the Redskins gave up #1, #2 AND #3 picks to the Minnesota Vikings for Brad Johnson. At the time Johnson at 29/30 had only started the equivalent of 2.5 seasons worth of games for Minnesota and had nowhere near the resume that McNabb brings.

In a more recent example the Dolphins before Parcells arrived gave up a #2 draft choice for Daunte Culpepper who was at that time on crutches after season-ending surgery. As it turned out an injury he never really recovered from.

So, #2 and potentially a #3/#4 in 2011 for a pro bowl quarterback who is coming in healthy and knowledgeable about the system being installed by the new coaching staff is a far different kind of trade than you would have seen Cerrato make.

Compare it to the Jason Taylor deal in 2008. Taylor, 34, was acquired for #2 and #6 picks to play in a system he was ill-suited for by his own admission. An outside backer in a 3-4 at 250, he was placed at DE in the 4-3 and was quickly found out as a liability in the run game by the NY Giants and Dallas.

5. While I believe the Redskins will be hard pressed to not take Okung if he is there at #4 overall, if the Lions take him at #2 I think all bets are off and you could see quite an interesting series of events take place as it comes time for the Redskins to pick on Day 1 of the draft

actually Taylor played DE in Miami for years at 255-260 and was not a liability against the run, he suffered a brutal injury for us and we gave up on him too soon.

If we arent in tear down mode then why make the switch to a 3-4É it makes no sense at all

[Barney B]

If we arent in tear down mode then why make the switch to a 3-4É it makes no sense at all

It makes sense if the coaches believe that they can make a seamless transition to a 3-4 in a single off-season. Or if they believe that they can implement a part-time 3-4 next year without losing too much ground, and complete the transition in another off-season or two.

Assuming they don't scrap the plan entirely, based on the personnel they currently have to work with.

.

[GIBBS LIVES]

Sorry but I"ve seen this behavior before. This is classic Snyder thinking. This thinking of , "This team isn't that far away". The atmosphere that Snyder has created has seduced Gibbs and now it has seduced Shanny too. It's a shame. Because this organzation refuses to build a team the proper way and take the lumps that go along with it.

Right now, Shanny is acting like an hand puppet of Snyder's. It's a shame. I feel bad for all the redskin faithful. We deserve better then Snyder.

[KennyKhaos]

If we arent in tear down mode then why make the switch to a 3-4É it makes no sense at all

It does make sense in a few aspects. It gives us more versatility and our 4-3 was becoming stagnant. It adds more dimensions to our attack. You also assume that we'll strictly run a base 3-4. All signs point to a hybrid defense with the 4-3 still showing up every now and then. Not to mention the 3-4 has so many different looks that it can line up so similar to a 4-3 it's kinda crazy. With the right coaches (which it seems like we have) and good players, the transition can be easy a la Green Bay last year. They did have more fitting personnel though.

That said, it's clear they have a plan. The defense is part of that. I find it hard to believe they'd over look this part of the team.

[Henry]

Value is always a hindsight judgement- so, pointless to call it either way right now.

What I do see is a plan and a vision for this team. The Redskins completely staying out of the market for Julius Peppers, for instance, is very encouraging. And I'm downright giddy that our new football coach has identified the biggest problem with our offense: our miserable QB.

If our only problem was a lousy QB I'd be giddy with trading away picks for McNabb too. But we need those picks, because our OL is just as miserable. We have old RBs. We have unproven WRs (yes, they are unproven.) We are completely overhauling our scheme on defense, and it's becoming painfully obvious that some of our current players don't fit.

And we have four picks to address this.

None of this sounds familiar? Really?

As for the RB position, I give Clinton about a 1 in 3 shot of actually turning it around. I think there is still some gas left, but up to him if he wants to tap it. Larry Johnson? I give him about a 1 in 3 chance. He seemed to hit a wall in 2008 but if nothing else he should be well rested after last season. Willie Parker? I give him about a 1 in 3 chance of reverting to prior form as well.

Wait a minute- 3 separate 1 in 3 chances at RB with the draft still looming...

Three RBs that are each 66% likely to suck is a good thing? Wouldn't you like to have at least one RB with better odds than that?

Looming is the word. We have four picks. Philly has 11. Dallas has six (including their first four). The Giants have seven.

Once again every team in our division has the opportunity to get younger, cheaper and more cohesive than we do on draft day.

And the coolest part, I don't think they're done yet. Wouldn't surprise me to see Landry get dealt.

They better not be. That's what I'm saying. If we get a first-day pick for Campbell or anything for Landry, Haynesworth or whomever else is suddenly a bad fit for latest front office gear-shift I'll take it.

[Going Commando]

I just hope Shanahan sticks around as VP of football operations when he turns things over to his son.

We're getting a bit ahead of ourselves aren't we? I think we need to hope Shanahan can make it to year three without getting fired first.

I think a lot of us are overlooking just how questionable some of these decisions this offseason have been:

1.) Hiring a GM who's track record was pretty checkered in Tampa Bay. Allen's record in the draft is downright awful.

2.) Hiring a defensive coordinator who's resume is probably even worse than Allen's and attempting to make a difficult defensive scheme transition when the necessity of doing so was iffy (to put it generously) in the first place.

3.) Trading a fairly high pick in a good draft class for a soon to be 34 year old QB whose best days are behind him (a guy that our division rivals couldn't wait to get rid of).

4.) Alienating and attempting to trade the best player on our team after having him for a single season.

5.) Keeping around or signing anew washed up, and/or openly disruptive RBs in Parker, Portis, and Johnson.

Taken by themselves, no one of these moves would be that troublesome to me. And of course I'll wait and see what they do in the draft before I break out any pitchforks and torches. But red flags are already starting to go up in my head when I put this all together. I'm willing to hold out hope because Shanahan is such a damn good coach but I can't shake the feeling that he and Allen are both pretty bad at team building.

[Going Commando]

If I was prepared to make a declaration I'd have started a thread.

Instead I'm responding to the declaration that things are different now, that the Redskins are getting 'value' for their deals. I disagree. I see little value in accumulating the best skill position players of 2006. I see little value in continuing to go into draft day with very few picks year in and year out.

Of course in few more months that may change. Then I'll be happy to stay out of threads like this one.

I agree with you. I just don't see a lot of positives to take away from what we've done so far beyond the fact that Mike and Kyle Shanahan will now be doing the X's and O's on offense. I've also got some misgivings about our defensive coaching staff since I think that, outside of Olividatti and the largely unknown quantity in Spanos, the entire group is unimpressive.

Ultimately, I don't think we'll ever see fundamental improvement until we make a concerted effort to build through the draft. We are a rebuilding team whether we want to admit it or not. We need to be getting 3 future starters a year from the draft, as a minimum. If hiring retread coaches with a 4 year run in mind isn't conducive setting up a proper rebuild, then we shouldn't be hiring retread coaches. I hope we get lucky in the draft this year because, as it is, I honestly believe the Lions will be consistent playoff contenders before we will.

[Going Commando]

Why rebuild when your coach has a life span of 5 years tops?

Don't you see the problem here? Why hitch your wagon to a coach whose best possible run will be 5 years long? What kind of sense does that make? He's got to rebuild whether he wants to or not or he's going to be 9-7 one year, 5-11 the next, so on and so forth as you'll be completely at the mercy of injuries to all the old players you'll be relying upon. This is pretty much how Gibbs 2.0 went down minus a handful of noteworthy free agent signings. If you want to see how a team rebuilds pay attention to the Falcons, Lions, and Dolphins. Each hired an excellent talent evaluator to head their football operations, hired a brilliant young first time head coach, stockpiled draft picks to infuse their teams with young talent across the board, and went out and got themselves a bright young QB to build around. That's the tried and true method for building a consistent winner. I don't know of anyway to successfully circumvent this process, but to me it looks like this is exactly what we are trying to do once again.

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at our team and not see that we need to rebuild. We went 4-12 last year and lost to what, 6 winless teams in the process? We are/were awful and a huge part of the problem was the players.

[Grinder]

Don't you see the problem here? Why hitch your wagon to a coach whose best possible run will be 5 years long? What kind of sense does that make? He's got to rebuild whether he wants to or not or he's going to be 9-7 one year, 5-11 the next, so on and so forth as you'll be completely at the mercy of injuries to all the old players you'll be relying upon. This is pretty much how Gibbs 2.0 went down minus a handful of noteworthy free agent signings. If you want to see how a team rebuilds pay attention to the Falcons, Lions, and Dolphins. Each hired an excellent talent evaluator to head their football operations, hired a brilliant young first time head coach, stockpiled draft picks to infuse their teams with young talent across the board, and went out and got themselves a bright young QB to build around. That's the tried and true method for building a consistent winner. I don't know of anyway to successfully circumvent this process, but to me it looks like this is exactly what we are trying to do once again.

I honestly don't see how anyone can look at our team and not see that we need to rebuild. We went 4-12 last year and lost to what, 6 winless teams in the process? We are/were awful and a huge part of the problem was the players.

Great post. Its nice to see people get it.

I have every confidence that Shanny can get the offense humming with spare parts and duct tape but with the McNabb trade there seems to be little thought for the future.

Is a win-now move like this what's really best for the Redskins or what's best for our coach's won-loss record in 2010?

[skins_4_life]

Very well written, I totally agree

[Rocky21]

I wish more people would read and heed Bulldog's well thought out posts on this team.

[Warpath11]

I don't think that Allen and Shanahan are idiots either, but my bet is that Andy Reid knows more about Donovan McNabb than they do and I doubt that he's offering charity to a division rival.

This is just silly Oldfan and you know it. If you read anything to do with this trade McNabb was traded within the division becuase Andy Reid wanted to do right by him (McNabb). Reid wanted McNabb to stay for one more run, but the management, rightfully so, got rid of him before his contract expired at the end of the 2010 season.

The Eagles could have sent him to the wasteland that is Oakland or Buffalo but knowing that McNabb did not want to go there they shipped him to a place he would agree to play (Arizona was another place he would have gone to, but since we threw in the 2011 draft pick we won the sweepstakes).

[Mark The Homer]

I wish more people would read and heed Bulldog's well thought out posts on this team.

http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=6253592#post6253592

[Oldfan]

...If you read anything to do with this trade McNabb was traded within the division becuase Andy Reid wanted to do right by him (McNabb).

I believe that Donovan wanted to come here. I believe that Andy Reid says that he's sending Donovan here to do the right thing. But, I believe also that if Andy Reid didn't think that the move would set the Redskins back, he would have sent McNabb to one of the other 30 teams.

I don't believe that an NFL coach would hurt his team's chances to win a division title to be kind to ANY player.

[4skins23]

They taught me to not trust them. They say misleading things. Not a very respectable coaching staff the 'skins have. But on the up side, "they will win some games!"

[kingdaddy]

In today's NFL, with the right coach and system, and with a good QB, you can turn things around quickly. Almost to a man, the Skins players are talking about how excited they are about the change in culture around the club. A positive attitude where everyone believes in the direction and leadership of the team can make a huge difference. I like the idea of mixing established vets with younger guys. The Skins need to establish a winning environment from the minute they get to camp. Adding playoff veterans like McNabb, Parker, L J, and others will help do that.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

1.) Hiring a GM who's track record was pretty checkered in Tampa Bay. Allen's record in the draft is downright awful.

Is it?

Clayton was a MONSTER his rookie year, and then the injury bug hit him, and hit him hard. Same with Carnell Williams. Davin Joseph has been a quality performer at guard. They gave up on Gaines Adams WAY too early, and then, of course, he died. They've found good starters in the 2nd through 4th round. I'd say their drafting was fairly average. At the end of the day too, they won division titles - and the NFC South has always been a strong division (A SB caliber Panthers team, a playoff-caliber Falcons team, the Saints post-Brees)

2.) Hiring a defensive coordinator who's resume is probably even worse than Allen's and attempting to make a difficult defensive scheme transition when the necessity of doing so was iffy (to put it generously) in the first place.

Haslett's defensive resume is not awful by any means. He looked awful in St. Louis - anyone would. But he had decent defenses in New Orleans without the benefit of a secondary. Keep in mind GW of all people had bottom 10 rankings in points allowed and yards allowed.

I agree that we shouldn't be transitioning to the 3-4 so quickly, though I disagree that it won't be better in the long run, and the fact is, the Ravens transitioned a championship-level defense from the 4-3 to a 3-4, and it worked out for them after some initial rough patches.

3.) Trading a fairly high pick in a good draft class for a soon to be 34 year old QB whose best days are behind him (a guy that our division rivals couldn't wait to get rid of).

I thought you supported the move? Our other options were essentially drafting a QB at #4 and a LT at #37, or drafting a LT at #4 and a QB at 37 when 2nd round QBs bust a lot.

Also, 33 in QB years is like 29-30 for other positions, barring injury. Does anybody really think Brady or Manning (all around the same age) will suddenly fall off a cliff? Warner looked washed up at SEVERAL points between, say, 2003 and 2007. Brett Favre, obviously.

Usually if a QB stays healthy, they don't start the decline until their late 30s.

4.) Alienating and attempting to trade the best player on our team after having him for a single season.

yeah this was dumb.

5.) Keeping around or signing anew washed up, and/or openly disruptive RBs in Parker, Portis, and Johnson.

Well, the problem is that we don't have the picks to go after a RB in the draft, period, and it's not like there were any young and cheap backs there. Maybe there will be in UDFA. But for NOW, taking a flier on former Pro Bowl backs in order to push Portis (because clearly he doesn't like Ganther or Aldridge, as much as we do) was his best option.

Taken by themselves, no one of these moves would be that troublesome to me. And of course I'll wait and see what they do in the draft before I break out any pitchforks and torches. But red flags are already starting to go up in my head when I put this all together. I'm willing to hold out hope because Shanahan is such a damn good coach but I can't shake the feeling that he and Allen are both pretty bad at team building.

Well, it's clear that they're not Pats/Colts/Ravens-style Moneyball guys, which is what I think we all want. I don't mind retooling to be competitive in 2008, especially since building a winning culture is so important. We also have the firepower to recoup our draft picks, and then some, but I'm worried that Shanahan might try to make a 2 TE set work with Cooley, or Andre Carter work as a OLB.

If we're not stockpiling draft picks and running with the over the hill gang approach in 2012, THEN I'd be worried. Right now, we're using old spare parts because that's what we have available.