Grossman May Have Been Brought In for More Than Just Backup Duty (Sirius Radio)

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Do you remember that article in which Moss talked about getting overthrown even in practice?

yes i do. and anybody who watches should feel his pain. imagine how he feels. to get open deep like that and be constantly let down.

[darrelgreenie]

The problem isn't that no deep shots are ever called... the problem is that JC seems to be incapable of taking a chance. He's just wired that way, I'm afraid. It might have something to do with the fact that despite what some misinformed members of the media say, JC is not a great deep ball thrower. It looks pretty... it just never goes where it's supposed to.

You might be right about Rex taking over if JC falters although i don't think he will.

But, how can you call 'deep shots' if your mainly taking 3 step drops?

We all know the pass protection wasn't good and that the Redskins all but gave up on 5 and 7 step drops around mid-season.

And in the second half of Zorn's 1st year he openly talked about pass protection issues and identified OL as an area of need.

I agree with Martin C.

I think that JC doesn't put enough arc on his deep ball, he kinds throws it on a line and i think it makes it harder for WRs to run under and to track because the ball is on top of them in a hurry.

But at the end of the day JC's deep ball efficiency is average for a WCO or at least in 2009 it was: http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6573167&postcount=24

This year he was a paltry 1/12 on 'deep' ball efficiency, which imo is negatively affected by poor pass protection and lack of a running game to set up play-action.

31-40---> 0-7

41+----->1-5

But on a side note JC was pretty good at the deeper intermediate passes

21-30---->13-27 (48.1% comp)

Schaub

31-40---->3-5

41+------>2-5

21-30---->13-31 (41.9)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5615

[icbmayday]

I sure hope the human interception machine doesn't get named the starter.......I don't think he can beat out JC regardless.

[TheItalianStallion]

This year he was a paltry 1/12 on 'deep' ball efficiency, which imo is negatively affected by poor pass protection and lack of a running game to set up play-action.

31-40---> 0-7

41+----->1-5

But on a side note JC was pretty good at the deeper intermediate passes

21-30---->13-27 (48.1% comp)

Where did you get that 0-7 from? These passes appeared to travel 31 yards:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8149ae6b/Devin-Thomas-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Eagles-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c7dbf/Jason-Campbell-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Saints-2009

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c86f3/Jason-Campbell-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Saints-2009

Also, he connected on a bunch of passes like the one below which didn't go 30+ yards through the air, but I have a hard time calling passes like the one below anything other than deep balls:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8149a509/Malcolm-Kelly-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Eagles-2009

Also, I disagree with your assesment that Campbell throws deep balls on a line. The ones above were thrown with plenty of touch. Hell, even the ones he missed, such as the one to Kelly at the beginning of the STL game, had good touch; the problem was just the accuracy, not the trajectory.

[wvtbred]

You might be right about Rex taking over if JC falters although i don't think he will.

But, how can you call 'deep shots' if your mainly taking 3 step drops?

We all know the pass protection wasn't good and that the Redskins all but gave up on 5 and 7 step drops around mid-season.

And in the second half of Zorn's 1st year he openly talked about pass protection issues and identified OL as an area of need.

I agree with Martin C.

I think that JC doesn't put enough arc on his deep ball, he kinds throws it on a line and i think it makes it harder for WRs to run under and to track because the ball is on top of them in a hurry.

But at the end of the day JC's deep ball efficiency is average for a WCO or at least in 2009 it was: http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6573167&postcount=24

This year he was a paltry 1/12 on 'deep' ball efficiency, which imo is negatively affected by poor pass protection and lack of a running game to set up play-action.

31-40---> 0-7

41+----->1-5

But on a side note JC was pretty good at the deeper intermediate passes

21-30---->13-27 (48.1% comp)

Schaub

31-40---->3-5

41+------>2-5

21-30---->13-31 (41.9)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8440

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5615

Are these passes that "gained" that many yards or passes that traveled that far? Big difference.

[redskins2473]

Just RG's presence is refreshing since no position should be annointed unless your talking a pro bowl caliber player. Too many years of the job being handed out with no real competition. That alone should produce better play from whoever wins the job and keep pressure on them to produce throughout the season.

[TheItalianStallion]

Are these passes that "gained" that many yards or passes that traveled that far? Big difference.

He meant through the air. There were something like 7 passes that gained 40+ yards, but only 1 is listed in his post.

[Buck812]

yes i do. and anybody who watches should feel his pain. imagine how he feels. to get open deep like that and be constantly let down.

If JC saw that Moss was feeling that much pain from getting over thrown I wished we would have asked him if he wanted to trade places and let 300 pounders hit him in the mouth all day.... Moss might redefine what his pain is after that.

[Snyder & Co.]

The offseason was going good until the Skins made this move.

Really...a QB competition against a guy who is a career backup, an INT throwing machine, and never has reached over 55% of completions? He gets to compete just because he has 1 year of experience in the system?

Nice.

[darrelgreenie]

Where did you get that 0-7 from? These passes appeared to travel 31 yards:......Also, he connected on a bunch of passes like the one below which didn't go 30+ yards through the air, but I have a hard time calling passes like the one below anything other than deep balls:

Its from ESPN; the link is in my previous post just go to the splits section.

I think they count the yards in the air from the LOS and of course there's gonna be some discrepancy based on where the LOS actually was vs where the catch was made vs how many YAC were made.

But, I see your point, that's why i put the ' ' around the word 'deep' in my previous post, i agree that these passes you're refering to are also deep passes but acording to their metrics the don't fall into the 31-40 category.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8149ae6b/Devin-Thomas-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Eagles-2009

^^JC escapes a sack and throws a strike to Thomas that was a sweet pass and looking at the replay it does appear to travel 31+ yards from the LOS; so they might be wrong about this one

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c7dbf/Jason-Campbell-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Saints-2009

^^Another nice pass but i think Moss gained about 7 YAC

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c86f3/Jason-Campbell-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Saints-2009

^^That's another sweet pass, how the heck does ARE not score on that one? All he had to do was keep running on an angle but it looks like he turned into the defender.

But, anyway the LOS looks like the our 44 and it looks like its caught at their 33 so thats a net of 29 yards just shy of their metric of 31

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8149a509/Malcolm-Kelly-Highlight-WK-12-vs-Eagles-2009

^^Another nice pass but again falls into shy of their metric of 31 yards.

Also, I disagree with your assesment that Campbell throws deep balls on a line. The ones above were thrown with plenty of touch. Hell, even the ones he missed, such as the one to Kelly at the beginning of the STL game, had good ouch; the problem was just the accuracy, not the trajectory.

Agree to disagree then.

I'm not saying he doesn't throw with touch, but from my view his deep passes have a low trajectory.

But, my overall point was that his deep passes are in keeping with other WCO QBs and QBs in general.

[J-bomb]

Why would a proven HC and GM bring in REX haven't they read the many posts on ES about how much he sucks! I mean if they need to know how bad of a qb he is all his stats are posted for them to see. Why would they overlook his INT's and completion % don't they know ES is the best evaluator of nfl talent? Everyone knows he had nothing to do with the Bears SB run it was all the Defense and ST's so his experience means nothing and he can't possibly teach anything he was only with Houston 1 year.

We are doomed, the season is over, we can't win with him.....................

[Gregpeck99]

In Campbell's case, stats are meaningleess other than points per game and W/L (production!).

In the competition with Rex ... Jason will lose simply because he is a robotic QB who plays without instinct.

The pressure of this competition will cause him to panic and play poorly... it will be very ugly for Campbell.

[MumboSauce]

Tana still has the goods, I'm kinda done with Campbell man..I don't dislike the guy, but he's still making a lot of the mistakes rookies make even at this point in his career. I know good QB's don't grow on trees but we need better. I give him a slight pass on how bad the line was last season and Zorn's terrible playcalling/designs, and not allowing Jason to deviate or audible as he saw fit.

[DC_BearsFan]

Bad weather, such as in the Bears/Colts SB, makes the problems of small hands/poor grip even more acute. You can't teach a player to grow bigger hands.

Except this kindof blows your theory out of the water doesn't it, Grossman's best ever game (college) "Slingin' in the Rain" was in a heavy downpour:

"Grossman played in the famed "Slingin' in the Rain" game against Louisiana State University, where he threw 22 completions in 32 attempts, for 464 yards and 5 touchdowns, en route to a 44-15 victory over the Tigers. [9][10] In 2006, in an interview with the Chicago Tribune, Grossman claimed the victory to be his most memorable game at the University of Florida. He ended his sophomore season with a 56-23 victory over the University of Maryland in the 2002 Orange Bowl."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Grossman

[angel2]

If Gross Man beats out JC for starting quarterback it just means another mediocre 8-8 season. Meanwhile the head coach can work on improving other key positions on the team this year. But I would rather have Colt getting experience than using Gross Man to try to rejuvenate his mediocre career. I hope the ball Coach knows that our fans will judge him on how he deals with the quarterbacks he brings into camp and how he makes judgments about them. The fans will be crying foul if the ball coach makes major mistakes on offense with starters before the first game of the year.

Agreed! They have to see what Colt can do with the starting offense. Jason has had more than his share under center without much success.

Drafting a QB with our first two picks would be a mistake, IMO. Protection is just that and must be address before go down that road we have traveled too many times. OL would be extremely impressive if we get 2 OLTs.

[MartinC]

If Gross Man beats out JC for starting quarterback it just means another mediocre 8-8 season. Meanwhile the head coach can work on improving other key positions on the team this year. But I would rather have Colt getting experience than using Gross Man to try to rejuvenate his mediocre career. I hope the ball Coach knows that our fans will judge him on how he deals with the quarterbacks he brings into camp and how he makes judgments about them. The fans will be crying foul if the ball coach makes major mistakes on offense with starters before the first game of the year.

Why do I get the sense that your defintion of a 'a major mistake' would be the Coach deciding Colt Brennan is not the answer at QB? If or when that happens you can cry foul all you want and you may have some company among the Cult guys - but don't think you speak for most of the fan base.

Shanny will be judged (at least by me) on how he develops the whole team and wins and losses over a couple of years not the QB rotation this preseason.

I just want the best QB under centre possible, I am not tied to any one guy over another. Let's just let Shanny evalute what we have, see what the draft brings and let the best man win without any conspiracy theories.

[veteranskinsfan]

MartinC- I am not a conspiracy theory guy at all. If Colt is not successful here ,then he can move on. Many ex-Redskins have done well with other teams. Redskin fans, especially the ones who are in the age 35 and below range, have been waiting a long time to smell playoff success. Shanny is a veteran coach and the younger fans are not going to be quiet over the next few years. Most NFL fans want to win now. Many fans do not want to to wait 3 years or more to "develop" our next quarterback. Look at the Saints, Falcons and Ravens who found quarterbacks quickly. They also became leaders on their teams. Portis and Moss are not leaders on offense and JC's play has not been good so he cannot lead by example with the veteran players. By the way, I never said I spoke for most of the fan base. No ES member speaks on behalf of the entire fan base. All of us simply provide our observations about the team, the coach, and the owner.

[Wyvern]

When the Skins brought in Grossman onboard ... my first reaction was not positive at all. I very much felt that Campbell needed to win his starter's role rather than being annointed by default. I felt Grossman wouldn't contribute much to the level of competition at QB, and consequently 2010 could turn out to be another "annointing."

However, after cooling down (and doing a little research with my friends who follow NFL/NCAA football carefully) I think I now understand the potential upside of giving Grossman a chance with the Skins. Here's why:

1. In the past, Grossman has shown on occasion he's got decent enough mechanics for some accurate downfield passing and for medium-long strikes quickly delivered. And those rare times when he was 'on' ... he's shown he can be an effective QB. He's got some talent.

2. But one of Grossman's biggest flaws seem to be in focussing on the game-plan and preparing for the game. Rex seemed to think he can play like Brett Favre -- and in free-wheeling it, his arm could always bail out him out and 'save' the day. But as we know, that's not a great recipe for reliable success -- and when things started going sour for Rex's supporting cast in Chicago -- everything snowballed and Grossman's unreliable preparation made him look even worse.

3. Moreover there's an old NCAA rumor out there on the Gator Grossman --- that he didn't like to study/prepare hard, preferring to party. If so, it's likely he may have taken those poor habits with him to Chicago along with his 1st-round pick 'golden-QB' mindset.

...But now that 'glitter' is all gone, and even Rex is realizing he's coming close to being edged out of the NFL. So maybe, a little maturity/new urgency could be starting to set in?

4. And if that's the case, then Houston was probably the best thing to help foster a new attitude in Grossman's mindset and perhaps a more disciplined approach. I can't help but feel the new venue had to be good for Grossman. Rex got a fresh start away from the alienated Chicago fans, and a chance to dial down the pressure. Also Rex could benefit from a new (and quality) coaching staff in Houston and learn a more disciplined approach from the example of solid professional NFL QB like Schaub.

...So, maybe Kyle Shanahan might have insight about a different version of Grossman than we all recall?

Bottom Line: Grossman knows this is getting close the end of the line for him, especially if he doesn't produce for Washington. And Rex does have system experience, he's low-mileage, and possesses many of the desired physical intangibles of a bona-fide NFL QB.

So, maybe Grossman will bring more to the 2010 Skins training camp than we're all expecting. Maybe the Shanahans can keep him on track. Maybe the QB coach can click with him and make him a better QB than in Chicago. One thing for sure, our receiving corps (Moss, Kelly, Thomas, Mitchell, Davis, Cooley, etc.) is an upgrade from what he had in Chicago. ...So, I'm going to be patient, and even looking forward to see what the 2010 version of Rex Grossman will be like. ...Time will tell.

[wildbill1952]

I agree. Let the best man win out of Campbell, Grossman or Brennan. I don't have any problem with that at all. In fact I love the idea.

Just so long as the Skins don't draft a QB, I'm happy.

[Wyvern]

Thanks. I wanted to avoid hijacking this thread, so I steered clear of passing any judgements on Campbell or Brennan, and instead just focussed on Grossman. But I do have opinions on them as well.

I just wanted to reflect on the possibility that Grossman may have improved from his days in Chicago -- but I'm very mindful it's also possible that he's still the same old Rex. Regardless, that will probably be revealed in the QB competitions in training camp, in preseason, and beyond.

I think it's time to have players accountable for their performances-- so being a first round pick (or a 6th rounder) should be taking a backseat to how well they compete for their position. So, this means not only competing in training camp, but also throughout the year. There's no more free pass to starting QB. And we're also going to need the best quality backups to step in -- should the opening day 'starter' begin to falter -- who are a threat to seize the starter role.

If the Skins want to compete effectivey within the league, they have to conduct due diligence in competing internally. The Shanahan/WCO relies heavily on its QB --so I want the Skins 2010 QB to be someone who can effectively lead the Shanahan/WCO-style offense as other top-flight QBs have shown it can done.

...Currently all three Skins QBs have question-marks.

So in the interests of the best QB competition possible -- I'm not ruling out drafting a QB, especially should the right one for the Shanahan/WCO offense become available. Hopefully, when the season starts the Skins will have found their QB -- and eagerly waiting backups-- battle-tested and honed through a vigorous competition between the best QB candidates possible.

[MartinC]

By the way, I never said I spoke for most of the fan base. No ES member speaks on behalf of the entire fan base. All of us simply provide our observations about the team, the coach, and the owner.

Apologies if I misunderstood your post - it had echoes of those posts we see all the time saying that Colt is being held back through some conspiracy involving the front office, Head Coach and unspecified mystery gun men on a grassy noll

The bit of your post though which raised my hackles a touch is below.

I hope the ball Coach knows that our fans will judge him on how he deals with the quarterbacks he brings into camp and how he makes judgments about them. The fans will be crying foul if the ball coach makes major mistakes on offense with starters before the first game of the year

I read that as you putting words into the mouths of us as a fan base as a whole. That kind of thing gets on my nerves a bit, its right up there with politicians talking about 'what the people want' when what they really mean is 'what I want'.

No biggie though and again my apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick from your post.

[Scamp1]

He is what we think he is. Training Dummy for Def line, and what not to do as a NFL QB for our young QBs.

[veteranskinsfan]

MartinC-thanks for your post. May the best quarterback on our team start the season and be effective. Competition is the best way to determine the final outcome. Last year, there was no real competition at several key positions.

[Ashburn Dave]

I think you are forgetting about the incredible Special Teams play that year. I have never seen teams so afraid of another team's kick return game as I did that year.

Hester and the return team single handedly won them games that year.

Their special teams were special that year. So many punt and KO returns for TD's.

[Ashburn Dave]

All we can hope for is open competition and that the best man wins.

The problem I have with RG is that he was throwing too many picks in 2006 for the Bears when he had that great defense, great special teams, and a solid running game. Gotta protect the ball better under those conditions.