hitmandm Posted January 10, 2010 Author Share Posted January 10, 2010 Also, I never said forget the rest of the team. Just you do better if you draft a QB high-if hes worthy- and build the rest of the team in rds 2-7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MumboSauce Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Largely depends on the crop coming out in the draft your talking about. Doesn't make sense to neglect Oline for a franchise QB just based on your research when there is little to no franchise elite potential in the QB's coming out this year in the pool you speak of. Then again, while OL is deep this year, the drop off is steep after the first 1 or 2 considered elite guys. Should be interesting to see which way Shanahan and Allen go...if you pick #4 it should be a can't miss, least amount of bust potential talent and in some cases BPA even if it isn't an Olineman or QB. I think you hope a player falls that you either take there and is worth it or that someone else covets so you can trade down and get quantitative second tier guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankez99 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 paloffs = played out. On a side note; the Caps scored more goals tonight (8), than the Skin's did in two games against the Cowboys. Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Largely depends on the crop coming out in the draft your talking about. Doesn't make sense to neglect Oline for a franchise QB just based on your research when there is little to no franchise elite potential in the QB's coming out this year in the pool you speak of. Then again, while OL is deep this year, the drop off is steep after the first 1 or 2 considered elite guys. Should be interesting to see which way Shanahan and Allen go...if you pick #4 it should be a can't miss, least amount of bust potential talent and in some cases BPA even if it isn't an Olineman or QB. I think you hope a player falls that you either take there and is worth it or that someone else covets so you can trade down and get quantitative second tier guys. Robert Gallery....just saying.... Any 1'st rounder has bust potential. Draftin oline doesn't guarantee jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsTerps26 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 4/5 of the jets oline are 1st round picks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I think the end result here is that there is no magic formula for building a good team. What's important is that each year the team uses their opportunities to further IMPROVE the team. For example, the Baltimore Ravens had a championship defense for the last 5 years, but were continuing to improve their offense. Therefore, they took their opportunity to draft a QB because that's what they needed. Once they found their QB through the draft, they continued building their o-line to improve their running game. Look what happened? Michael Oher has made such an impact on the Ravens that they have substantially improved their run AND pass game.I don't understand your argument here. It is obvious that the Redskins need to improve in many areas of their offense. What's important is that we continue to IMPROVE each year rather than using first round draft picks and the FA on positions that we don't need (which we've been doing for the last decade). Excellent post and I've argued this many times on this site. "There is no one way to skin a cat," yet the argument consistently falls upon deaf ears. I am encouraged though that you and others have made this argument in this thread. Go with the flow, IMO, "roll with the punches." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Robert Gallery....just saying....Any 1'st rounder has bust potential. Draftin oline doesn't guarantee jack. No matter how high you pick there is no guarantee. But 1st round OL, or OT to be more specific, probably has the best success rate out of any other position picked early. I made a thread on it a while ago if you care to check my history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Money Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 You know we're worse off than most teams Ive ever even heard of.... we don't fit this prissy little mold you want to put us in!!! This franchise has been neglected and has no real depth outside of TE, anywhere. Its time to rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newera Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 The problem with the Skins under Cerrato was that we never picked enough olinemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newera Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I prefer Okung first and LeFevour second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighOnHendrix Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I think someone else did the research. It goes to show you that you don't need a first round OL to have a good offensive line. You don't need one, but it can't hurt! Unless we're lucky enough for Suh to fall to us at 4, Okung should be the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmandm Posted January 10, 2010 Author Share Posted January 10, 2010 4/5 of the jets oline are 1st round picks Not drafted by them then. It didnt do them any good last year when Favre hurt his arm and they didnt make it. QB is most important. You can have 5 first rd OL and if the QB pulls a muscle in his arm, kiss it goodbye. Or if your QB is great, then you can totally ignore drafting OL in the first round like the chargers and packers and make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 A franchise QB is not the icing on the cake. It is the fundamental piece that causes teams to make the playoffs or not. And, while drafting a QB with a top pick is not a guarantee of success, it is highly correlated to playoffs if he doesnt bust. This is where you are misunderstanding the impact of a Franchise QB . There are multiple examples of a good QBs who have been deemed as busts but never had a chance to succeed because they were on a BAD or poorly constructed team . If you look at Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez these teams were not bad teams they were missing a good QB and it can be debatd how much of an impact these players actually had over the other aspects of the team . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 i think the skins situation is a little different. alot of people think the o line may need as many as 4 new starters next year, and is the weakest part of the team. getting everyone to agree on that point, though, is not going to happen. so, if shanny thinks O line is the biggest issue and theres a guy there, he takes him. See I think that's insanity talking. Even if we do spend 4 of 5 picks on OL, no more than 2 of them are going to be ready to start. I just don't see how that is even possible. This OL fix is going to take 3 years like it or hate it. The only way we find 4 new guys is to trade multiple players and future picks to get into the 2nd and 3rd Rounds I believe. That would make it harder to trade up for locker last year as so many are advocating. However, I do believe OL should be a priority but as I've maintained, that doesn't mean #4 or the #2 pick has to both be spent on OL. Palmer has been to the playoffs what twice in his career and lost both games? Our team has been there the same amount of times in almost as many years with brunell and campbell/collins with the same results. As far as Clausen and Bradford, if both are available you take the guy you feel #1 fits your system and is the best prospect when considering that. I'm not sure who is better for shanahan's system to be honest. Palmer's 2 playoff appearances have both been marred by injuries. THis year he had to use his off hand to hand off, and secondly lost several WRs because of injuries. (yes a few came back to play, but it was not enough in my view) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 woops double post, could a mod delete this post for me, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 How is this even a debate at this point? It's been well established that most of the top o-lines in the league have guys drafted in the 2nd to 4th rounds. But most of the top QBs are first rounders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtyler42 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Only 2 are perennial playoff contenders??? OK.How many of those QB's AREN'T first round draft picks? How many of those teams just DRAFTED a starting QB? In the first round? And for those teams that got their QB's in "free agency" how many of those QB's are first rounders? WHY did they end up with their teams? I mean really, you can dance around the subject and talk reading fundamentals, but more important than reading is COMPREHENSION. So the NE Patriots QB and Arizona QB are the minority. Facts remain. Check yours. BTW Which teams aren't PERENNIAL in your definition and WHY? Romo sits to pee, Favre, Brees, Warner, and Brady...So that's 4 out of the 6 NFC QB's in the playoffs aren't first rounder's, thats 66% and 5 out of the 12 QB's overall in the playoffs aren't first round picks, that's 42%... The Ravens and Jets just drafted a QB in the first round... Of the teams that got their franchise QB's in FA, none of those QB's were drafted in the first round by their original teams...I guess they ended up with their teams b/c they needed QB's... COMPREHENSION? What am I not comprehending? It's more than NE, and ARZ...Also add NO, DAL, and MINN in that minority of playoff teams without first round QB's...So what facts remain and what Facts of mine do I need to check? CIN, NYJ, BAL, GB, ARZ, MIN, DAL, and NO IMO aren't perennial playoff teams... perennial: persistent, enduring <perennial favorites> b : continuing without interruption : constant, perpetual <the perennial quest for certainty> <a perennial student> c : regularly repeated or renewed thats the definition....You do the math! Can I ask you what happens to the teams that draft a QB in the top 5 and they turn out to be a bust? Is there any correlation between where they are drafted, the money spent, the waste of pick of another potentially great player and the years the franchise spends hoping the guy pans out? I for one am not ready to seal Shanahan's fate on someone like Sam Bradford. I'd rather improve another part of our team and see what Shanny can do before we starting changing everything. If we take a QB at #4 Shanny's fate will undeniably be tied to him. Another great post! This is where you are misunderstanding the impact of a Franchise QB . There are multiple examples of a good QBs who have been deemed as busts but never had a chance to succeed because they were on a BAD or poorly constructed team . If you look at Ryan, Flacco and Sanchez these teams were not bad teams they were missing a good QB and it can be debatd how much of an impact these players actually had over the other aspects of the team . Jason Campbell is the poster child of this...He has limitations but the way he gets blamed for the roster's inadequacies and is expected to perform as a top QB is ridiculous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 RCIN, NYJ, BAL, GB, ARZ, MIN, DAL, and NO IMO aren't perennial playoff teams... perennial: persistent, enduring <perennial favorites> b : continuing without interruption : constant, perpetual <the perennial quest for certainty> <a perennial student> c : regularly repeated or renewed It is difficult in this era to build perennial winning teams. Who was the last team to win back to back SUper Bowls (New England?), before that Denver? The system is designed so that you over achieve one year and under achieve the next. I tell you one thing Green Bay is a really good team, and were last year too even with a first year starter, a lot of people think if they hadn't traded Favre they could have returned to the playoffs last year. Minnesota was in the playoffs last year too, as was Arizona and Baltimore. Consider that. To me being a perenial contender does not mean only Super Bowl Victories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DexterSackMachine Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 I think Jim Zorn would make a much better head coach than Jim Fassel. NO RETREADS! Oh, sorry.....I thought this was the 2008 coaching debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddub52 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Is "paloffs" an inside joke? I'm new here... Not an "inside joke" just the most epic thread ever on ES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIBBS LIVES Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Colts: None since Tarik Glenn in 97Jets: D'Brickshaw and Mangold in 2007 but none since 78 Cowboys: None since 81 Vikings: McKinnie in 2002; Stringer 95 Pats: Logan Mankins in 2005 and Woody in 99 Cards: Levi Brown and Davis Packers:none since 97 Ravens: Grubbs and Oher Chargers: None since before Ryan Leaf Saints: Jamall brown in 2005 in 12 years Only the Jets and Cards have picked an OL in the past 10-12 years of all playoff teams in the top 10- and those guys arent really considered good. Colts, Jets, Chargers have QBs that were taken in top 5 picks and Ravens and Packers also first round QBs. They all have franchise QBs. Gurode (center) of the Cowboys was taken at the bottom of the first round. This list isn't very accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Vooskins is right on the money here, and you guys argyuing with him are really grasping at straws. It's far from a guarantee that if we take a QB with the 4th pick he will automatically become a franchise QB. You don't just roll the dice b/c we need a QB. For every Peyton Manning taken, there are 3 Ryan Leafs, Damarcus Russells, or Tim Couches. The list goes on and on, Alex Smith, Heath Shuler, Akili Smith, Cade mcNown. Bradford and Clausen look more like those guys than Peyton Manning to me. The key is to not waste the pick and the money that goes with it. Take the best player available, or maybe trade it for multiple picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 The key is to not waste the pick and the money that goes with it. Take the best player available, or maybe trade it for multiple picks. BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE. If thats a QB so be it. See Robert Gallery, See the kid the bungals took last year. It's all a crap shoot. Take BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE. In the meantime, we need a franchise qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck812 Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 With just a quick look, it appears that with Phi and Cin now eliminated, 50% of the teams left in the playoffs have a QB that they took in the first rd starting and 70% of the teams have an Olinemen that they took in the first rd starting. Not saying it really means anything but there it is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIBBS LIVES Posted January 10, 2010 Share Posted January 10, 2010 Vooskins is right on the money here, and you guys argyuing with him are really grasping at straws. It's far from a guarantee that if we take a QB with the 4th pick he will automatically become a franchise QB. You don't just roll the dice b/c we need a QB. For every Peyton Manning taken, there are 3 Ryan Leafs, Damarcus Russells, or Tim Couches. The list goes on and on, Alex Smith, Heath Shuler, Akili Smith, Cade mcNown. Bradford and Clausen look more like those guys than Peyton Manning to me. The key is to not waste the pick and the money that goes with it. Take the best player available, or maybe trade it for multiple picks. But your thinking is to just quit taking QB's then in the 1st round??? Wow. It's good that Atlanta and Baltimore didn't feel that way huh??? We have a coach who can talent evaluate at the QB position now. If he says we should pass on the QB's, then so be it. But to just dismiss the idea totally because QB's have busted out in the first round is elementary thinking to say the least. Clausen, Bradford, Mccoy..Shanahan will see who (if any) would be good selections at the fourth overall pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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