Denver Post: Shanahan appears headed to Redskins

[jflow78]

Get over it. Vinny was far worse than Snyder as far as the backbiting goes, and I agree Zorn doesn't deserve this and Vinny kind of did, but the writing has been on the wall for about 10 games and he and everyone in the country has known it. If it's such an injustice and so disrespectful then he can gather up his self-respect and quit, unless the money is holding him to his seat. If not, then it's apparent he doesn't feel as disrespected as you seem to think.

Besides, we don't know anything yet. Everyone is reporting stuff contradictory to each other, Gruden's wife is house shopping, Gruden loves MNF and will never leave, Shanahan is out of the picture and wants Dallas, Shanahan is immediately the guy after the season, AND NO ONE, not a single news outlet, knew that Snyder had been interviewing people for the GM position for a good while, according to the guys that monitor the Rooney Rule. So I think everyone is jumping to conclusions.

So, on another note, I don't want any part of the Browns former personnel guy, regardless of who did the butchering of their draft and other personnel moves. I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out why everyone was so impressed with the Browns draft. They picked a bunch of garbage when there were quality players available. It was unbelievable.

I would, however, be ecstatic if DeCosta came here from the Ravens, those guys are the best drafters (with the exception of WRs) in the business, IMO.

Anyway, I think if Shanahan comes, and his son comes in as the OC (since he's been great in Houston) and is groomed as the next HC, so much the better.

I'm not cheering for anyone as the next HC yet, not until the next HC has been named. AND, I don't care who we have for HC, as long as we become winners again.

[Going Commando]

2) Who does he bring in on his staff? Call me a bit skeptical about his 27 year old son being the OC

Kyle is about the only thing that will get me excited about a Shanahan hire. Technically he's 30 since his birthday was the 14th. He's a boy wonder though and I think he might be an incredible QB coach/play caller for his age. Look at the wonders he's done with Matt Schaub and the Texans. They were the number 3 offense in the league last season with him running the show.

Anyway, Kyle absolutely needs to be part of the deal because if he gets established here, he can be the natural successor to his dad as a HC when he inevitably retires in a few seasons. Mike is 57 years old which is on the older end of head coaches these days.

Our offensive line is going to get crushed with a Shanahan/Alex Gibbs transition. I doubt we have a single player who can start in that scheme. Maybe Chad Rinehart? And he's on IR. We'll probably end up with a unit full of rookies and they will be horrible next season, especially since we'll want to go ahead and get our QB ASAP. It's going to be hard to make this transition this offseason without free agency which is looking more and more likely. Things will probably get even worse before they get better if they ever do.

[Koolblue13]

If Vince Lombardi rose from the dead to coach the Skins you would be hearing complaints. Shanny is a helluva upgrade over who we have now so I will take it.

That's because he sucked the last time he was here.

[hieverybody]

That's because he sucked the last time he was here.

No. He didn't.

[Oldskool]

Kyle is about the only thing that will get me excited about a Shanahan hire. Technically he's 30 since his birthday was the 14th. He's a boy wonder though and I think he might be an incredible QB coach/play caller for his age. Look at the wonders he's done with Matt Schaub and the Texans. They were the number 3 offense in the league last season with him running the show.

This was his 1st year as a OC, but he took Shaub, who was a backup, and has made him into a very good QB when he was the QB coach.

Anyway, Kyle absolutely needs to be part of the deal because if he gets established here, he can be the natural successor to his dad as a HC when he inevitably retires in a few seasons. Mike is 57 years old which is on the older end of head coaches these days.

I agree. Mike would be the caretaker, set up the offense and allow his son to take over. I'd love the kid to have a tenure on the team like Cowher had in Pitt.

Our offensive line is going to get crushed with a Shanahan/Alex Gibbs transition. I doubt we have a single player who can start in that scheme. Maybe Chad Rinehart? And he's on IR. We'll probably end up with a unit full of rookies and they will be horrible next season, especially since we'll want to go ahead and get our QB ASAP. It's going to be hard to make this transition this offseason without free agency which is looking more and more likely. Things will probably get even worse before they get better if they ever do.

As it is, only Dockery realistically would be coming back as a starter from the beginning of the year. If this scenario does unfold, knowing of what we know from Allen's draft history and our need for O-lineman to fit the scheme, i'd not be surprised if the team drafted 2-3 starters.

[sjinhan]

I am not totally enamoured by Shanny.

1) I am worried about what he does with the D, and a d-coordinator. We have a good thing going on defense.

2) Who does he bring in on his staff? Call me a bit skeptical about his 27 year old son being the OC

i am almost sure that they will bring Alex Gibbs along with his son from Houston... if they dont yeah I might be little worried but then again I doubt the father would let his son take over too much responsibility when he is not ready.

[darrelgreenie]

Can anyone give me a primer on Shanahan's offense? I realize he ran a West Coast offense, but how does it compare to Zorn's/Lewis'?

Which Shanahan?

Here's my observation of Shanny in Denver.

Mike Shanahan is WCO but loves the running game, he prefers a ZBS with 1 cut and go style running backs. He places a premium on having a good OL more agile/smart then brute strength. He manages to get great production from his running backs no matter where he drafts them and he likes to draft a bunch of them. (In Denver) The passing has more intermediate/downfield focus then a typical WCO its focus is on 5 step drop based routes and he likes to move QB with bootleg, sprint-out and roll-outs.

I think his WCO is more like Sherman Lewis then Jim Zorn, but who knows what Zorn would have called if he the same pass-protection as Sherman Lewis?

[Oldskool]

Which Shanahan?

Here's my observation of Shanny in Denver.

Mike Shanahan is WCO but loves the running game, he prefers a ZBS with 1 cut and go style running backs. He places a premium on having a good OL more agile/smart then brute strength. He manages to get great production from his running backs no matter where he drafts them and he likes to draft a bunch of them. (In Denver) The passing has more intermediate/downfield focus then a typical WCO its focus is on 5 step drop based routes and he likes to move QB with bootleg, sprint-out and roll-outs.

I think his WCO is more like Sherman Lewis then Jim Zorn, but who knows what Zorn would have called if he the same pass-protection as Sherman Lewis?

His WCO is from the Seifert tree, not the Holmgren tree as Lewis and Zorn's are. You are correct that his is a more vertical version of the offense.

Kubiak, and by extension, his son Kyle run the very same offense in Houston.

[Going Commando]

This was his 1st year as a OC, but he took Shaub, who was a backup, and has made him into a very good QB when he was the QB coach.

I thought he got promoted in '08. That's what it says on Wikipedia at least.

I agree. Mike would be the caretaker, set up the offense and allow his son to take over. I'd love the kid to have a tenure on the team like Cowher had in Pitt.

That would be kind of a dream scenario because he would already know the organization in and out. Continuity like that is how this team will become good again. Especially if we hit a home run selecting our personnel guy.

As it is, only Dockery realistically would be coming back as a starter from the beginning of the year. If this scenario does unfold, knowing of what we know from Allen's draft history and our need for O-lineman to fit the scheme, i'd not be surprised if the team drafted 2-3 starters.

That's the problem though. An offensive line with 3 rookie starters on it is going to be ugly. Especially if one of them is a center and another a left tackle in a complicated zone blocking scheme. Throw in the likelihood that we'll be starting a new QB who might even be a rookie or a guy with 0 starts under his belt. It terrifies me to think about what our offense might look like with a rookie QB and a rookie center.

[33]

His WCO is from the Seifert tree, not the Holmgren tree as Lewis and Zorn's are. You are correct that his is a more vertical version of the offense.

Kubiak, and by extension, his son Kyle run the very same offense in Houston.

George Seifert was a defensive coach. He has no branches of the WCO.

[Oldskool]

I thought he got promoted in '08. That's what it says on Wikipedia at least.

My mistake, I read the dates wrong. From the Texans site:

Kyle Shanahan enters his fourth season with the Houston Texans, sixth in the NFL and second as the Texans' offensive coordinator. Shanahan coached the quarterbacks in 2007 and the wide receivers in 2006 before being named offensive coordinator on Jan. 11, 2008. At age 29, Shanahan is the youngest coordinator in the NFL.

That would be kind of a dream scenario because he would already know the organization in and out. Continuity like that is how this team will become good again. Especially if we hit a home run selecting our personnel guy.

I agree. TK is hinting that Doug Williams may be that guy... :cool:

That's the problem though. An offensive line with 3 rookie starters on it is going to be ugly. Especially if one of them is a center and another a left tackle in a complicated zone blocking scheme. Throw in the likelihood that we'll be starting a new QB who might even be a rookie or a guy with 0 starts under his belt. It terrifies me to think about what our offense might look like with a rookie QB and a rookie center.

I don't think that we'll have a rookie QB starting next year. If Vincenzo was still here, he'd be running Campbell out of town after the last snap of the last game. As it looks now, with no CBA, Campbell will be an RFA and back next year.

As for O-lineman, the silver lining is that they are teaching and using zone blocking more and more in college these days and chances are that you can get at least one guy that comes from a pro set offense, is used to that system and probably could start from day 1.

[darrelgreenie]

His WCO is from the Seifert tree, not the Holmgren tree as Lewis and Zorn's are. You are correct that his is a more vertical version of the offense.

Yeah i wasn't saying what 'tree' Shanny is from; i was answering the question about wether his offense would be more like Lewis or Zorn and i said it would be more like Lewis.

Both he and Lewis are from the Walsh tree.

[Oldskool]

George Seifert was a defensive coach. He has no branches of the WCO.

He may have been a DC. However, since he was a coach under Walsh and coaches such as Mike Shanahan, Jeff Fisher, Ray Rhodes, Pete Carroll, and Marc Trestman, worked and learned under Seifert, he gets his own branch in the Gilman/Walsh tree.

[Going Commando]

I don't think that we'll have a rookie QB starting next year. If Vincenzo was still here, he'd be running Campbell out of town after the last snap of the last game. As it looks now, with no CBA, Campbell will be an RFA and back next year.

If Shanahan comes in as the coach, I hope we draft our QB sooner rather than later. We need to get the ball rolling on our transition and Campbell's value probably never be higher than it will be following the season given this is a weak QB class in both the draft and free agency. He's pretty much only competing with Sam Bradford at this point.

As for O-lineman, the silver lining is that they are teaching and using zone blocking more and more in college these days and chances are that you can get at least one guy that comes from a pro set offense, is used to that system and probably could start from day 1.

That's definitely true, and I think there are some fabulous zone blocking prospects in this class in particular that I would put a really high priority on drafting. But it's the general adjustment to the NFL, the play style, speed, season length, training regimen, etc. that crush rookies. Chris Cooley made an interesting point about how shocking Brian Orakpo's late season success is because he's a rookie. Nearly every rookie's body shuts down and hits a wall after a certain point in the season because of the adjustment to the long season. It will be things like this that give the rookies the hardest time, especially if they come from smaller colleges.

Dockery has some experience in a zone scheme with all of the stretch run plays we've been running lately, so I think you can eke out another few seasons with him but that still leaves a lot of open spots left without many options in free agency at all.

[Gregpeck99]

Shanahan and Campbell go together like a horse and carriage.

[Oldskool]

Yeah i wasn't saying what 'tree' Shanny is from; i was answering the question about wether his offense would be more like Lewis or Zorn and i said it would be more like Lewis.

Both he and Lewis are from the Walsh tree.

All 3 may be from the Walsh tree but Zorn and Lewis are more akin to Holmgren than Shanahan is. Look at the graph above and you see that there is a separation between the two. Holmgren and Seifert may have learned from Walsh, but their offenses are different.

[SkinsFTW]

What it tells you is that the owner, not the GM, is deciding who our next coach is going to be.:doh:

Funny how everybody seems to miss the Vice in Vinny's title and now Allen's.

It only fitting that we bring in the most overrated coach of the past 2 decades. I fully expect it.

His 2 SB's are basically the equivalent of what Minnesota is doing now with Favre, Peterson and an overall top talent team but there were no other dominant teams in 97-98 like there are now. Once Davis got hurt and Elway retired Shanahan didn't win anymore playoff games in 10 years than Gibbs did in his short time back. Yes, 1 playoff wins in 5 tries and 1 division title in 10 years when 8-8 or 9-7 would have won the Broncos the division in a few seasons.

Oh, and are they going to bring in Alex Gibbs too? I think that guy is a requirement for any success for Shanahan. He did manage to go 13-3 in 2005 with Plummer at QB so maybe, just maybe something can work I just won't get my hopes up too much.

It's still Snyder with a new puppet replacing Vinny IMO. Allen managed to work with Al Davis for most of a decade which tells me that he is puppet material. Not many last that long with that nutcase. Does anybody really believe that Al Davis had nothing to do with managing that team at the time?

What about Snyder now? He will still have his hand in the cookie jar except he has never built multiple Super Bowl winning teams as Al Davis once did a long time ago. Snyder will continue his Fantasy Football unless these guys have more balls than it appears and whats stopping him from doing what he did to Schottenheimer if they do? Maybe behind the scenes they give up power that Schottenheimer wasn't willing to which is why he was fired. Snyder loves his Fantasy Football and the league continues I believe.

[33]

He may have been a DC. However, since he was a coach under Walsh and coaches such as Mike Shanahan, Jeff Fisher, Ray Rhodes, Pete Carroll, and Marc Trestman, worked and learned under Seifert, he gets his own branch in the Gilman/Walsh tree.

First off, he was HC of Oakland in 88-89 after he had already been an OC in Denver under Reeves. Second off, you attributed Shanahan's offensive system to Seifert.

His WCO is from the Seifert tree, not the Holmgren tree as Lewis and Zorn's are.

It's like attributing Rhodes system to Holmgren. Or Gruden's to Rhodes because they coordinated under the other.

[SonnyandSam]

Get over it. Vinny was far worse than Snyder as far as the backbiting goes, and I agree Zorn doesn't deserve this and Vinny kind of did, but the writing has been on the wall for about 10 games and he and everyone in the country has known it. If it's such an injustice and so disrespectful then he can gather up his self-respect and quit, unless the money is holding him to his seat. If not, then it's apparent he doesn't feel as disrespected as you seem to think.

Besides, we don't know anything yet. Everyone is reporting stuff contradictory to each other, Gruden's wife is house shopping, Gruden loves MNF and will never leave, Shanahan is out of the picture and wants Dallas, Shanahan is immediately the guy after the season, AND NO ONE, not a single news outlet, knew that Snyder had been interviewing people for the GM position for a good while, according to the guys that monitor the Rooney Rule. So I think everyone is jumping to conclusions.

So, on another note, I don't want any part of the Browns former personnel guy, regardless of who did the butchering of their draft and other personnel moves. I couldn't, for the life of me, figure out why everyone was so impressed with the Browns draft. They picked a bunch of garbage when there were quality players available. It was unbelievable.

I would, however, be ecstatic if DeCosta came here from the Ravens, those guys are the best drafters (with the exception of WRs) in the business, IMO.

Anyway, I think if Shanahan comes, and his son comes in as the OC (since he's been great in Houston) and is groomed as the next HC, so much the better.

I'm not cheering for anyone as the next HC yet, not until the next HC has been named. AND, I don't care who we have for HC, as long as we become winners again.

Gee....there really is intelligent life on this message board after all.

[Oldskool]

First off, he was HC of Oakland in 88-89 after he had already been an OC in Denver under Reeves. Second off, you attributed Shanahan's offensive system to Seifert.

It's like attributing Rhodes system to Holmgren. Or Gruden's to Rhodes because they coordinated under the other.

Coaching trees aren't always so cut and dry.

In this case, Shanahan's system is still a WCO system but shares little in the execution of the plays as was run by Walsh. Hence why there is a separation between Holmgren and Shanahan.

[hieverybody]

Funny how everybody seems to miss the Vice in Vinny's title and now Allen's.

It only fitting that we bring in the most overrated coach of the past 2 decades. I fully expect it.

His 2 SB's are basically the equivalent of what Minnesota is doing now with Favre, Peterson and an overall top talent team but there were no other dominant teams in 97-98 like there are now. Once Davis got hurt and Elway retired Shanahan didn't win anymore playoff games in 10 years than Gibbs did in his short time back. Yes, 1 playoff wins in 5 tries and 1 division title in 10 years when 8-8 or 9-7 would have won the Broncos the division in a few seasons.

Oh, and are they going to bring in Alex Gibbs too? I think that guy is a requirement for any success for Shanahan. He did manage to go 13-3 in 2005 with Plummer at QB so maybe, just maybe something can work I just won't get my hopes up too much.

It's still Snyder with a new puppet replacing Vinny IMO. Allen managed to work with Al Davis for most of a decade which tells me that he is puppet material. Not many last that long with that nutcase. Does anybody really believe that Al Davis had nothing to do with managing that team at the time?

What about Snyder now? He will still have his hand in the cookie jar except he has never built multiple Super Bowl winning teams as Al Davis once did a long time ago. Snyder will continue his Fantasy Football unless these guys have more balls than it appears and whats stopping him from doing what he did to Schottenheimer if they do? Maybe behind the scenes they give up power that Schottenheimer wasn't willing to which is why he was fired. Snyder loves his Fantasy Football and the league continues I believe.

Great post. How anyone can be happy with what's transpiring is beyond me.

[33]

Coaching trees aren't always so cut and dry.

In this case, Shanahan's system is still a WCO system but shares little in the execution of the plays as was run by Walsh. Hence why there is a separation between Holmgren and Shanahan.

I've seen it listed both ways, with Shanahan under Seifert and Walsh. Never under Reeves despite that's where his career started and where he jumped to his first HC job from.

I just think it's disingenuous to list a guy known for his offensive prowess as a protege of a defensive X's and O's guy. What exactly did Shanahan learn from Seifert if we're talking strategy rather than leadership in these trees? In particular with the comment you made earlier about the deeper passing WCO scheme.

That's nothing personal towards you, obviously. Just my feelings on how these trees may not be so honest. Especially when they come from wiki.

[Oldskool]

I've seen it listed both ways, with Shanahan under Seifert and Walsh. Never under Reeves despite that's where his career started and where he jumped to his first HC job from.

I just think it's disingenuous to list a guy known for his offensive prowess as a protege of a defensive X's and O's guy. What exactly did Shanahan learn from Seifert if we're talking strategy rather than leadership in these trees? In particular with the comment you made earlier about the deeper passing WCO scheme.

That's nothing personal towards you, obviously. Just my feelings on how these trees may not be so honest. Especially when they come from wiki.

The graph above actually did not come from wiki nor did any of the information.

We can agree to disagree. :cool:

[SkinsFTW]

I'm not seeing how there was a seperate Seifert tree.

Thats like Gibbs retiring and if Williams stayed as HC it would be the Williams tree. Seifert was a DC and didn't create his own offense since there was one already winning 3 SB's in place.

Also, Reeves wasn't WCO. His offense was closer to Martyball except he had Elway so there were major adjustments made.

Shanahan was a Reeves coach in Denver before Oakland wasn't he?

[Oldskool]

I'm not seeing how there was a seperate Seifert tree.

Thats like Gibbs retiring and if Williams stayed as HC it would be the Williams tree. Seifert was a DC and didn't create his own offense since there was one already winning 3 SB's in place.

Also, Reeves wasn't WCO. His offense was closer to Martyball except he had Elway so there were major adjustments made.

The only reason that there is a Seifert tree is to place all the non traditional WCO system coaches that were under him at one point or another. At least that's my opinion.