Jason Campbell improving, according to the stats. *UPDATED WITH FINAL STATS*

[mnb123]

i know. i was kidding. halfway, anyway.

funny thing is, the steelers were good enough to win the super bowl last year, yet not make the playoffs this year, despite having a top tier QB playing behind a suspect line.

why is that?

injuries

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i know. i was kidding. halfway, anyway.

funny thing is, the steelers were good enough to win the super bowl last year, yet not make the playoffs this year, despite having a top tier QB playing behind a suspect line.

why is that?

cause they lost the cog in their defensive wheel, troy "head and shoulders" polomolu. that defense had a very down year giving up 20 points per game, which is not the norm for them. and even with a down year for them they went 9-7 and missed the playoff by one slot. roethlisburger was hurt and they had a string of crushing 1 possession losses in november that killed them.

[pocampo]

I love the fact that Shanahan has only talked about one stat: the 4-12 record.

I liked what he said when he was asked if Jason Campbell could be his starting QB. He said, of course, that is what competition is all about.

Another enlightening question: What qualities to you look for in a quarterback?

"There's so many different things. Number one, you've got to be accurate. Number two, you've to be passionate for what you're doing. You've got to study the game inside and out. You're looking for guys that carry that over to the football field. Some guys are talkers, other guys are quiet. I've seen people lead in a lot of different ways. The Joe Montanas, the Steve Youngs, the John Elways that I've been with, each guys is a little bit different in their own way. They're all Hall of Fame quarterbacks. You get in there and get a guy like Steve Buerlein that would just go out there and find a way to win. Everybody had different characteristics. You've got to have a burning desire to want to be the best at what you do."

Does Jason have that burning desire? We have never seen it exhibited.

Ya, Jake the Snake, got sh^&* canned for is inaccuracy. Jason will have to take the Pepsi challenge against most likely Colt and who knows who else. I'm not sure if getting into a accuracy Competition against Brennan is a good career move for Jason.

[grego]

our oline sucks.

JC sucks.

thats my stance. and i hope both are fixed.

and i agree, they dont respect our line either, so its a double edged sword, which is why i wanted BOTH replaced, the line and campbell. the people that just want the line upgraded are living in fantasy land.

i think most people want the O line upgraded for starters. but if JC cant get it done behind a decent line, you upgrade at qb.

and on aaron rodgers first blitz on that video he was sacked against a 3 man rush, which whenever that happens to our line, its the lines fault, yet it was rodgers fault when it happened to him.

true. it was a bit flukey though. 2 things- look at the timer thingy- he had nearly 5 seconds from the snap til he was sacked. he just happened to run into a rusher.

[SMoss_89]

You guys can spin your argument for Campbell all you want. Fact of the matter is Shanahan is bringing competition.

So Since campbell doesn't like competition, (ie. see cheifs game this year when campbell was pouting on the sideline 2nd half after being benched, then also stormed outta the locker rooms when reporters came to talk to him after the game AND the time he wanted to demand a trade if we drafted Mark Sanchez)...and also has never had it..its pretty clear he's gonna fold under pressure to a BETTER more accurate QB once we draft him..

You guys also like to spew out stats like JC didn't just collect all those numbers in Garbage time and with checkdowns, well he did..

And when its all said and done how many wins has JC shown for them, most importantly how many wins does he have in the NFC east, well i'll tell you.

Since 06 - now, he is 3-5 against Eagles

2-5 against the cowboys

and a WHOPPIN 0-8 against the Giants

I don't know WHY anybody would want that starting on our team again..why is it so hard to move on??

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i think most people want the O line upgraded for starters. but if JC cant get it done behind a decent line, you upgrade at qb.

this is what drives me nuts though. hes HAD a good oline before and did nothing with it. 07 the line was fine, he faltered yet collins played well behind it. in 08 portis was crushing teams the first 10 weeks and campbell produced minimal stats and pretty much just managed games for portis to run all over everybody.

hes had good line play before and did nothing. and i guarantee that a new oline wont do anything for campbell, and if he plays like crap everyone is still just gonna look at the oline and claim "well the line is a bunch of rookies" or "the line needs time to gel and we cant judge campbell yet".

campbell is what he is. people need to accept it and move on and stop the wishful thinking.

true. it was a bit flukey though. 2 things- look at the timer thingy- he had nearly 5 seconds from the snap til he was sacked. he just happened to run into a rusher.

his oline got beat on a 3 man rush and he held the ball too long. thats happened here plenty. except the oline gets blamed for it here, yet when it happens to rodgers its his fault.

unless you can honestly tell me you dont think campbell holds on to the ball for too long.

[grego]

injuries

cause they lost the cog in their defensive wheel, troy "head and shoulders" polomolu. that defense had a very down year giving up 20 points per game, which is not the norm for them. and even with a down year for them they went 9-7 and missed the playoff by one slot. roethlisburger was hurt and they had a string of crushing 1 possession losses in november that killed them.

i agree.

but, while i believe roethlisberger is a better qb than jc, no question, from some of the comments you read on this site, he should have been able to overcome a bad line, injuries, or an underperforming D.

my only point is, even a good QB cant do it all.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i agree.

but, while i believe roethlisberger is a better qb than jc, no question, from some of the comments you read on this site, he should have been able to overcome a bad line, injuries, or an underperforming D.

my only point is, even a good QB cant do it all.

he did though, he got that team to 9-7, considering the injuries, the fact he missed a game (meaning he got them to 9-6) and had them playing well down the stretch is a testament to how good he is, not to mention those superbowl rings. and lets be honest, theyre not gonna win every year, but they were still a good team.

that team leaned on him all season. its why he had over 4000 yards, 26 TDs, and a QB rating of 100+.

[wvtbred]

Ok, this needs to stop. We have a real GM and a proven offensive coach. They will make the decision that is best for this team, and no one on this board knows better than them. Can we all agree on that? JC supporter or basher, the coach and GM will determine if he plays here next year and beyond.

I don't have a problem with that at all and sounds like we are finally going to see a really competition at QB for a change.

[NewCliche21]

I don't have a problem with that at all and sounds like we are finally going to see a really competition at QB for a change.

I think that this is the best option for our team. I don't care if Campbell stays or goes, though I do think that he could perform better under the right system. Manning or Brees-esque? Nah, but better.

If we have an open competition, a TRUE open competition, then it'll be hard to argue with whatever happens. I trust Shanahanahnahnahnahnan on quarterbacks.

[grego]

this is what drives me nuts though. hes HAD a good oline before and did nothing with it. 07 the line was fine, he faltered yet collins played well behind it.

cant (or dont want to for sanitys sake) get into it right now, but while i would have loved for JC to be able to step in and light it up in his 2nd (and apparently very complex) system in his first full year as a starter, its probably not realistic. i know you dont buy this, but more often than not, theres a learning curve. collins, whom i like, btw, had been in the system since 01. it is what is it.

in 08 portis was crushing teams the first 10 weeks and campbell produced minimal stats and pretty much just managed games for portis to run all over everybody.

true. then the o line fell apart and we were done. JC was not able to overcome a bad line and no running game. on this, we can agree. interesting thing is, hes had none of that this year (it got worse, actually), yet is putting up better #'s (minus INT's). i think he has gotten 'better' in the system (one that isnt suited to him), but he's been hindered by a bad line made up of a couple of dudes who were literally on the street a few months ago, and 2 others that probably dont belong in starting positions, no running game, and no special team or D help in the area of field position or extra possessions (like rodgers, who is a better qb anyway, gets).

this is where i see a glimmer of hope and you, i believe, do not. and the argument goes on and on from there....

hes had good line play before and did nothing.

well, the team was 6-2. i'd take that. for more, see above.

and i guarantee that a new oline wont do anything for campbell, and if he plays like crap everyone is still just gonna look at the oline and claim "well the line is a bunch of rookies" or "the line needs time to gel and we cant judge campbell yet".

how could any qb NOT play better when not getting knocked on his ass on a 3 step drop? that is absolutely not logical. OF COURSE a less mobile, strong armed qb (like rypien) will play better with better protection. you are out of your mind to make a statement like that.

and thats not an endorsement of campbell. its just common sense. and, i suspect, the hump that campbell critics cant bring themselves to get over, yet its simply all the other side is saying.

[grego]

he did though, he got that team to 9-7, considering the injuries, the fact he missed a game (meaning he got them to 9-6) and had them playing well down the stretch is a testament to how good he is, not to mention those superbowl rings. and lets be honest, theyre not gonna win every year, but they were still a good team.

that team leaned on him all season. its why he had over 4000 yards, 26 TDs, and a QB rating of 100+.

i agree with you.

but then, according to some people, its all about results. and 9-7 aint gettin it done. so, i think they should re-sign charlie frye and give him the starting job :sarcasm:

[darrelgreenie]

This is just a small sampling and I hope it can put to bed the "sacks are sacks". JC is under duress FAR MORE and with FAR LESS time than most other QB in the NFL with the attrocity that was the Redskins offensive line.

I posed this question in another thread and i ask it again here:

Can you guys be objective for a second and answer this question about the OL quality?

Are all sacks created equal?

Which would you say is more indicative of a bad pass protection getting hit or sacked on a 3 step drop or getting hit/sacked on 5 or 7 step drop?

Which OL is worse a line that can actually gain yards on the ground or an OL that's totally inept in the running game?

And these,lol, were the responses:

a sack is STILL a sack, its the QB getting tackled before he throws the ball, regardless of the drop, type of play, blah blah.

That was why I left the question alone earlier in the thread to save argument, which doubtless is now coming.

Some of the posters that think Campbell is a bad QB will go to any lengths to avoid an actual debate and will avoid most question that go to the heart of an issue.

Hail!

[Passizle]

pittsburghs line is so good that their oline coach just got fired.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4802929

PITTSBURGH -- Offensive line coach Larry Zierlein and special teams coordinator Bob Ligashesky have been fired, the first Steelers assistant coaches to lose their jobs since coach Mike Tomlin was hired in 2007.

Zierlein was supposed to meet with some of his linemen on Wednesday, only to be told he was being replaced. He was seen leaving the Steelers' offices with several large boxes. Zierlein previously coached for the Browns and Bills, plus five college teams.

Offensive coordinator Bruce Arians held a long meeting Wednesday with Tomlin and is expected to retain his job, despite some dissatisfaction within the organization about the decreased emphasis on the running game.

Zierlein's offensive line had season-long problems, allowing Ben Roethlisberger to be sacked 50 times as the Steelers (9-7) failed to make the playoffs a season after winning the Super Bowl.

The staff changes are the first for Tomlin, who went three seasons without altering his staff. Quarterbacks coach Ken Anderson retired on Tuesday after 33 seasons as an NFL player or coach, 16 as a Bengals quarterback.

I never said they were terriffic. Just much betterthan what JC had. Fwiw... alot of those sacks are on BR. You saw the video.

[HailGreen28]

And yet Candle has been a middle of the road QB throughout his career.

I need to look this up, but maybe a more knowledgeable poster knows this: Is this a case of Candle really getting better every season? Or is it a case of QB stats across the league getting better every year?

The game changes, no way can you compare stats from say now, to those of the 70's and 80's. (One reason why Chris Carter doesn't even begin to match what Art Monk did, even though Carter's stats were great and he played maybe during and right after Monk did)

One way of looking at it is: Currently Candle is 15th in QBR among NFL QBs. His QBR has improved every season. What was his rank compared to other QBs in previous seasons?

If Candle has stayed around 15th in QBR every season, then he hasn't improved. I think he has improved statistically, but if he's gone from say like 25th, to 21st, to 18th, to 15th, then that would be even more proof that Candle has improved.

[NewCliche21]

And yet Candle has been a middle of the road QB throughout his career.

I need to look this up, but maybe a more knowledgeable poster knows this: Is this a case of Candle really getting better every season? Or is it a case of QB stats across the league getting better every year?

The game changes, no way can you compare stats from say now, to those of the 70's and 80's. (One reason why Chris Carter doesn't even begin to match what Art Monk did, even though Carter's stats were great and he played maybe during and right after Monk did)

One way of looking at it is: Currently Candle is 15th in QBR among NFL QBs. His QBR has improved every season. What was his rank compared to other QBs in previous seasons?

If Candle has stayed around 15th in QBR every season, then he hasn't improved. I think he has improved statistically, but if he's gone from say like 25th, to 21st, to 18th, to 15th, then that would be even more proof that Candle has improved.

"Candle" aside, this is an interesting point. I'd like to see that, too.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

how could any qb NOT play better when not getting knocked on his ass on a 3 step drop? that is absolutely not logical. OF COURSE a less mobile, strong armed qb (like rypien) will play better with better protection. you are out of your mind to make a statement like that.

and thats not an endorsement of campbell. its just common sense. and, i suspect, the hump that campbell critics cant bring themselves to get over, yet its simply all the other side is saying.

but how do we know that drafting okung at 4 will work? what if he sucks? does campbell just keep getting years until the oline is deemed to be acceptable? where do you draw the line? what if the line we have next year is still bad? do we just keep giving campbell passes until hes 39 years old?

before this season started i asked when is enough enough. many campbell supporters said this was his year to prove it. we went 4-12. and plenty of them still want to see more.

at this point im convinced there will never be "enough". theres nothing he can do to sour some peoples perception of him at QB.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I never said they were terriffic. Just much betterthan what JC had. Fwiw... alot of those sacks are on BR. You saw the video.

yet one of the best front offices in football clearly thinks the line is a major problem (even though they had one of the best QBs in the league) enough to fire the man in charge of it.

[NewCliche21]

but how do we know that drafting okung at 4 will work? what if he sucks? does campbell just keep getting years until the oline is deemed to be acceptable? where do you draw the line? what if the line we have next year is still bad? do we just keep giving campbell passes until hes 39 years old?

before this season started i asked when is enough enough. many campbell supporters said this was his year to prove it. we went 4-12. and plenty of them still want to see more.

at this point im convinced there will never be "enough". theres nothing he can do to sour some peoples perception of him at QB.

You asked me that directly, actually, and I said that this year was it. And it was. Let's have an open competition, but we DO need offensive line help. I'm not saying that I want Campbell; I'm saying that I want Okung and a **** ton of other offensive linemen so that when Campbell is replaced, the new guy doesn't get killed.

However, if Campbell does get better or finally get "it" in the next year or two, then he did it on borrowed time. I pull for the guy, but I pull for my team more.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

"Candle" aside, this is an interesting point. I'd like to see that, too.

he was 18th in TDs this year with 20.

in 03 it would have put him 12th.

in 04 it would have put him 15th.

in 05 it would have put him 11th.

in 06 it would have put him 10th.

in 07 it would have put him 13th.

in 08 it would have put him 12th.

in 09 it puts him at 18th.

this was a big year for TD passes. alex smith who is considered a major bust threw 18 TDs in 10.5 starts, and with 130 less attempts.

[NewCliche21]

he was 18th in TDs this year with 20.

in 03 it would have put him 12th.

in 04 it would have put him 15th.

in 05 it would have put him 11th.

in 06 it would have put him 10th.

in 07 it would have put him 13th.

in 08 it would have put him 12th.

in 09 it puts him at 18th.

this was a big year for TD passes. alex smith who is considered a major bust threw 18 TDs in 10.5 starts, and with 130 less attempts.

Good research! Thanks for the Smith comparison, too.

What about quarterback rating overall? Or that DVAR rating or whatever it was that some posters on here are in love with? I can get onto this site, but not many others while at work.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You asked me that directly, actually, and I said that this year was it. And it was. Let's have an open competition, but we DO need offensive line help. I'm not saying that I want Campbell; I'm saying that I want Okung and a **** ton of other offensive linemen so that when Campbell is replaced, the new guy doesn't get killed.

However, if Campbell does get better or finally get "it" in the next year or two, then he did it on borrowed time. I pull for the guy, but I pull for my team more.

okung isnt a lock. if you draft a tackle at 4 and he isnt that great, youre stuck with a meh tackle and still no QB. id rather take the gamble on the QB spot because the payoff is bigger. and its a major issue of need.

weve looked at all of this before, the majority of the big time QBs are 1st rounders. yet you can find talent at OT anywhere in the draft, and we have plenty of picks (and IMO were going to acquire some more).

and you know im right about the oline, if we start a bunch of rookies and they make rookie mistakes and campbell falters, all the blame will go back on the line and campbell will get another pass, its just how this works around here. then a year from today these threads will be going on, about "this year our oline will finally get it and campbell will be awesome!".

[HailGreen28]

he was 18th in TDs this year with 20.

in 03 it would have put him 12th.

in 04 it would have put him 15th.

in 05 it would have put him 11th.

in 06 it would have put him 10th.

in 07 it would have put him 13th.

in 08 it would have put him 12th.

in 09 it puts him at 18th.

this was a big year for TD passes. alex smith who is considered a major bust threw 18 TDs in 10.5 starts, and with 130 less attempts.

I gotta go, so hopefully I'll see an answer tonight or tomorrow...

Candle is currently ranked 15th in QBR. What was his rank in QBR in 2006, 2007, and 2008?

[NewCliche21]

okung isnt a lock. if you draft a tackle at 4 and he isnt that great, youre stuck with a meh tackle and still no QB. id rather take the gamble on the QB spot because the payoff is bigger. and its a major issue of need.

weve looked at all of this before, the majority of the big time QBs are 1st rounders. yet you can find talent at OT anywhere in the draft, and we have plenty of picks (and IMO were going to acquire some more).

and you know im right about the oline, if we start a bunch of rookies and they make rookie mistakes and campbell falters, all the blame will go back on the line and campbell will get another pass, its just how this works around here. then a year from today these threads will be going on, about "this year our oline will finally get it and campbell will be awesome!".

I'm on a two-year plan if we get a quarterback.

Get a quarterback this year if we're going to play Campbell while the rookie learns. Get free agents or later-rounders to fill in the line.

2011, work on the line.

However, and I don't know much about college quarterbacks, I am not sure that this is an '83 or '04 quarterback class. Is 2011 better? If so, then reverse the above and work on the line first.

I'm also ridiculously in favor of trading with San Francisco for their two first-rounders. That's my ideal. Then get two of our three main areas of need: Quarterback, line, and running back.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Good research! Thanks for the Smith comparison, too.

What about quarterback rating overall? Or that DVAR rating or whatever it was that some posters on here are in love with? I can get onto this site, but not many others while at work.

QB rating is a stat i dont like because it factors comp % in way too much, and campbell is known to throw short which inflates his QB rating. but campbells QB rating was 15th. alex smith was 19th, and theyre ratings were 5 points off.

the DVAR ive never taken the time to fully look that hard at it so i cant really comment on what it means.