leesburgvaskinsfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Wow, go win a game against a team like the Raiders and people get a big head. Yes, the Skins have played better. No, Zorn does not deserve another season. Zorn was a bad hire to begin with as HC, a result of the disfunctional situation in the FO. Fire Vinny, hire a real GM, and then let the chips fall as they may... I disagree. I believe the growing pains are getting less and less for Zorn and this coaching staff and the team is rallying around him. Let's take a hard look at parting ways with our overpaid "stars" this off-season, purge where we can, and build a winner with Zorn at the helm adding more young hungry talent on the o-line, FS, CB and keep JC. That could be a good start. Just sayin... Hail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 coaches and QBs both go hand in hand. theyre the decision makers, on and off the field. they are the two guys that have the most control (well zorn doesnt anymore). Who's in control if it isn't Zorn? How is the QB a major decision maker when he doesn't call the plays and has nothing to do with defense or special teams? Even if we reduce the won/lost record to a simplistic measurement of coach and QB, how do we figure out how much weight to give either? ...and you dont keep a head coach that has a poor record and absolutely no experience in the role. Which coach has no experience? Jim Zorn now has two years of head coaching experience. Spags with the Rams and Schwartz with the Lions are almost guaranteed to have a worse two-year record than Jim Zorn after 2010. Will their won/lost record prove they can't coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahons21 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 No, Sherman Lewis has earned Offensive Coordinator going in to next season. -The last time we hired a OC before a HC, Zorn became our HC... You've stated your disapproval with Zorn, yet you want to go about hiring out next coach in the same manner.. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thats your opinion. You are entitled to it. Just let it be known that you have been dead wrong by assuming some pretty far out "facts" this year and last... and I would not be the slightest surprised to see another prediction fail. please point me to all the times ive been "dead wrong". i predicted we'd sucked this year and i was dead on about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Who's in control if it isn't Zorn? How is the QB a major decision maker when he doesn't call the plays and has nothing to do with defense or special teams? Even if we reduce the won/lost record to a simplistic measurement of coach and QB, how do we figure out how much weight to give either? Which coach has no experience? Jim Zorn now has two years of head coaching experience. Spags with the Rams and Schwartz with the Lions are almost guaranteed to have a worse two-year record than Jim Zorn after 2010. Will their won/lost record prove they can't coach? spags has been awful, if you dont think theyll look at getting rid of him, think again. schwartz will get another year, just like zorn did. also remember, zorn was handed a 9-7 team coming off a playoff berth. these other two guys were handed the worst team in NFL history, and one of the worst teams in the league. they get cut a little more slack than zorn. 6-14 over his last 20 games, but lets keep him because we beat the raiders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 the passing game looks good for a few weeks in non pressure situations in meaningless games, and you think were on to something? We've played lots of meaningless games since Norv left: I haven't seen the offense perform like this for any stretch -- and it's being done with a patched O-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 We've played lots of meaningless games since Norv left: I haven't seen the offense perform like this for any stretch -- and it's being done with a patched O-line. we did this in 2006, scored 30+ two weeks in a row with brunell behind center against the jags and texans. everyone got excited like we were back in business, myself included. i will not be fooled again until i see this consistently. and that means 8-10 games of this. and the offense moved like this with brunell under center in 05 on numerous occasions so dont pretend like this is the best passing attack youve seen from this team in over a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 ...also remember, zorn was handed a 9-7 team coming off a playoff berth. these other two guys were handed the worst team in NFL history, and one of the worst teams in the league. they get cut a little more slack than zorn... Ah, so when it serves your purpose, you do argue that the hand a coach is dealt should factor into grading him. Is that right? And you'd like to argue, at the same time, that Campbell is the main culprit in our losing, but that Jim Zorn was dealt a playoff caliber team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd421 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I think the question or debate here is do you a) Want to keep building what we have started or blow it up and start another 3 year process (when we have not finished the 1st one yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Ah, so when it serves your purpose, you do argue that the hand a coach is dealt should factor into grading him. Is that right?And you'd like to argue, at the same time, that Campbell is the main culprit in our losing, but that Jim Zorn was dealt a playoff caliber team. im stating the obvious, which i know youre not a fan of. those guys were given teams in total rebuild mode, zorn was handed a playoff team. campbell is one of the biggest reasons we lose games. jim zorn was given a team coming off of a playoff berth. he turned them into something far less than what gibbs had them doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 ...and the offense moved like this with brunell under center in 05 on numerous occasions so dont pretend like this is the best passing attack youve seen from this team in over a decade. This is the best passing attack I've seen in over a decade. In 2005, the first half success was due to -- Brunell throwing to a single-covered Santana -- Brunell rolling left and dumping off to Cooley Once defenses adjusted by double-teaming Moss and keeping Brunell in the pocket, our passing yardage dropped from over 300 per game to 150 per, forcing Gibbs to pound Portis. If our QB gets decent protection, this passing game we are seeing now won't be shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saqs Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I think the question or debate here is do youa) Want to keep building what we have started or blow it up and start another 3 year process (when we have not finished the 1st one yet) Pretty much. Starting completely over basically gurantees at least another 1-2 years of growing pains where we'll have those with retardedly high expectations asking for change yet again right around 1.3 year mark. And the cycle continues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMVSkins Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 What is being built that we are rebuilding anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saqs Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 What is being built that we are rebuilding anyways Only our 3rd offense in 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 This is the best passing attack I've seen in over a decade. In 2005, the first half success was due to-- Brunell throwing to a single-covered Santana -- Brunell rolling left and dumping off to Cooley Once defenses adjusted by double-teaming Moss and keeping Brunell in the pocket, our passing yardage dropped from over 300 per game to 150 per, forcing Gibbs to pound Portis. If our QB gets decent protection, this passing game we are seeing now won't be shut down. and now its campbell throwing crossing routes to davis or thomas. who cares what the playcalls are as long as theyre working. just because brunell was able to do the same thing a lot doesnt mean it wasnt impressive. brunell had plenty of great games in 05, and they came in crucial situations, not meaningless games out of contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 im stating the obvious, which i know youre not a fan of. those guys were given teams in total rebuild mode, zorn was handed a playoff team.campbell is one of the biggest reasons we lose games. jim zorn was given a team coming off of a playoff berth. he turned them into something far less than what gibbs had them doing. You are omitting the most obvious problem facing this team in 2008 and this season: the O-line. In 2004, the O-line Gibbs inherited was the strongest unit on the team. Joe said so. When he left, it was the weakest, and it got worse even fqaster than anyone might have expected because of bad luck with injuries. So, Jim took over with a QB you blame for everything except world hunger and a rapidly declining O-line, but when you want to trash Zorn, you call it a playoff cailber roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 You are omitting the most obvious problem facing this team in 2008 and this season: the O-line. In 2004, the O-line Gibbs inherited was the strongest unit on the team. Joe said so. When he left, it was the weakest, and it got worse even fqaster than anyone might have expected because of bad luck with injuries. So, Jim took over with a QB you blame for everything except world hunger and a rapidly declining O-line, but when you want to trash Zorn, you call it a playoff cailber roster. it was in 08 (at least with todd collins playing lol). the team was coming off a playoff berth, thats a fact that you cant argue. yes the oline got older but it played good enough for collins to get us into the playoffs (which is why i blame campbell so much for performing poorly last year and much of this year). and youre just twisting and going in circles, as usual. zorn is not a good head coach or playcaller, campbell is not a good QB. both should be gone, both have multiple issues. two nice games in a row in a lost season doesnt change that at all, as much as you wish it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 and now its campbell throwing crossing routes to davis or thomas. who cares what the playcalls are as long as theyre working. just because brunell was able to do the same thing a lot doesnt mean it wasnt impressive.brunell had plenty of great games in 05, and they came in crucial situations, not meaningless games out of contention. Brunell had four outstanding passing games in the first half of 2005 and only one after the Niners blowout (the Bucs). Once defenses adjusted, his wad was shot. That's not an impressive passing game. Gibbs knew it. That's why he brought in Al Saunders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross3909 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I would not be upset if we kept Zorn and Sherm for one more year. If we have turned a corner, it would be a shame to blow it up prematurely. However, we must address our O-Line a secondary in the draft. I can't believe I am saying this but we need to sign Campbell to a contract extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 Brunell had four outstanding passing games in the first half of 2005 and only one after the Niners blowout (the Bucs). Once defenses adjusted, his wad was shot. That's not an impressive passing game. Gibbs knew it. That's why he brought in Al Saunders. yeah, those 4 TDs against dallas with the playoffs on the line in december was so sub par. i guess defenses only adjusted when brunell had bad games? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMVSkins Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I dont get how 8 straight weeks people were saying Zorn should go now after 2 solid weeks he should stay whats the standard around here like these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I think Snyder made up his mind in October, Zorn is not going to be there next year, unless no other coach wants to join the circus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 it was in 08 (at least with todd collins playing lol). the team was coming off a playoff berth, thats a fact that you cant argue. yes the oline got older but it played good enough for collins to get us into the playoffs (which is why i blame campbell so much for performing poorly last year and much of this year). For someone who claims to state the obvious, you certainly miss a lot. You haven't forgotten that when Thomas and Samuels were last seen relatively healthy the Skins were 6-2, have you? So, why are you using the 2007 team when measuring Zorn's record? He hasn't had an O-line as good as the one that finished 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfr3ek Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 i say bring Zorn back for another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 For someone who claims to state the obvious, you certainly miss a lot. You haven't forgotten that when Thomas and Samuels were last seen relatively healthy the Skins were 6-2, have you? So, why are you using the 2007 team when measuring Zorn's record? He hasn't had an O-line as good as the one that finished 2007. so the oline that finished the season in 07 was better than the oline zorn got to start 08? the 08 oline didnt really lose steam until samuels went down in the ravens game. it was doing fine until then, and campbell had started faltering long before that, which is why the whole myth of "its always the oline" is nonsense. but i keep forgetting im talking to a guy that thinks the water boy is more important than the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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