#98QBKiller Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 What I do find very interesting though is that on ES, the word ****** is starred out, yet people can use the word faggot/dyke all the time and no one says a thing. They should both be starred out and equally frowned upon IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 What I do find very interesting though is that on ES, the word ****** is starred out, yet people can use the word faggot/dyke all the time and no one says a thing. Actually, that is interesting although I am sure it is innocent and not indicative of anything. Btw, did you feel my comparison of Jews and Gypsy discrimination was apt. I hadn't really thought about it too deeply before, but something in this conversation reminded me of Jews hiding and pretending to be Christian in America back in the 50's and earlier and wearing crosses to fit in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'll pipe in on the gay vs blacks discrimination comparison- I ususally don't respond to those as I am not one to say it is comparable. I think the black people of America have, and still do in many ways- face more/worse discrimination. I honestly do not know any gay peopel who say they are the same, which I find interesting that straight people, mostly white, are the ones who always say that. So to the African America community- please don't think all gay people compare our struggles to yours. What I do find very interesting though is that on ES, the word ****** is starred out, yet people can use the word faggot/dyke all the time and no one says a thing. Kike is allowed too. So are wop and dago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 chomerics crazyhorse airborneskins Zoony there are a lot of things not ***** out hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I would suggest then,that you try reporting such uses of the words more often. Because I have,(and I know other mods have),warned and banned people for using those terms a well as other similar disparaging terms. I have no control over the filters,but I can control,to an extent,the use of words such as those. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMason Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 No, it isn't. Saying "well, all they have to do to not have the US Constitution discriminate against them is not be gay" isn't any different from "is to not let anybody find out". Was it OK for Hitler to exterminate the Jews? After all, it's a choice. All they had to do was not be Jewish. I'm pretty sure Hitler went after the non-practicing jews too. So even if you "chose" not to be Jewish, you were still considered Jewish and thrown into a concentration camp. But still, keep in mind that I did not say that "all discrimination based on any behavior is ok", only that our society does in fact discriminate based on behavior and that it IS different than discriminating because of how somebody looks. Yeah, I understand that racial discrimination is not 100% identical to sexual discrimination is not equal to orientation discrimination. (Although, the arguments people use to defend them are 100% identical.) However the fact that two forms of discrimination involve different characteristics does not change the fact that they're both discrimination, nor does it make one of them moral. Man. It's so tough to argue when I actually agree with you. But to continue playing devil's advocate: Think of marriage as a benefit. There are a lot of benefits that are given to citizens of the US for participating in a government-approved behavior. An example might be...joining the military and then getting money to pay for college. I'm a namby-pamby who never joined the military. So I don't get my school paid for by the government. (Holy crap is college expensive, by the way. My bank account is sucking right now.) Is this discrimination? I don't think it is. I am a natural born namby-pamby who would never be a good fit for the military. So I won't join, and I won't get any of the benefits that come along with having served in the armed forces. The same can be said for relationships. Some people commit themselves to another person of the opposite gender and have children, and the government wants to encourage it so they sanction "marriage" and give tax benefits and whatever else. Some people have personal issues (like attractions to people of the same sex) that cause them to not enter into a committed relationshiop with another of the opposite sex, and so they do not get the benefit of marriage. Is this discrimination? There is no punishment for not committing to a member of the opposite sex. Single people and homosexuals aren't being tortured or killed or made to ride separate buses or fired from their jobs (ok, that happens sometimes, which is really stupid. But ideally, none of this should happen). But they don't get the benefit that is given to male-femaile couples. I'm not punished for not joining the military either. I support gay marriage for the following reasons: 1. It doesn't hurt anybody in any definable way. 2. It makes gay people happy, and hey, can't we all just be friends? 3. Marriage really should not be any of the government's business. But for whatever reason, at this point in time the government feels it is in society's best interest to only provide this benefit to traditional couples. They may try to compromise with similar tax breaks, legal benefits, civil unions, etc, but won't give the benefit of calling it a "marriage". I understand the anger and disappointment from homosexuals, but I also don't think this is discrimination quite on the level of what african-americans suffered through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box76 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well, what about mixed race? And can't straight people be abusive too? Seems to me the problem is external and not internal. If a child has a nurturing and stable enviorment, then that child can excel. Kids can be cruel and can tease for just about anything. If your short, fat, thin, wear braces or glasses. If you asian, hispanic, arabic or of mixed ethnicity or other minority then your probably going to be teased. Is it right? Of course not, but kids do these things and it's part of the process of growing up. You learn that those are only words and words only have power if you let them. Now ignorance is another story... If your ignorant and choose not to empower yourself with knowledge, then you will remain ignorant. If only it were so easy to call all everyone with a dissenting opinion 'ignorant'. America was founded on Christian principles, its influence can be seen in the Constitution all the way down to the money you hold. Gays are asking the nation to turn its back on the convictions that have been handed down through natural bloodlines for generations. Am I to say the Bible is wrong or fictitous to make you feel better, so you can adopt the very thing that comes unnatural to your behavior? Umm...no. I would rather remain 'ignorant'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Actually, that is interesting although I am sure it is innocent and not indicative of anything. Btw, did you feel my comparison of Jews and Gypsy discrimination was apt. I hadn't really thought about it too deeply before, but something in this conversation reminded me of Jews hiding and pretending to be Christian in America back in the 50's and earlier and wearing crosses to fit in. Actually, I understand that the reason we now have open accommodation laws (laws that say that private businesses aren't permitted to discriminate against groups of customers) is because (supposedly) it was common in a lot of the country for hotels to refuse to rent rooms to people with Jewish names. Again, when I think of past, historical, discrimination, I usually assume it's against blacks. But I understand that yeah, it was common against a lot of other groups, too. (Isn't that also why the KKK used the cross as one of their symbols? Because they didn't like Jews, either?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 What I do find very interesting though is that on ES, the word ****** is starred out, yet people can use the word fag/dyke all the time and no one says a thing. I guess Because it means more than one thing. Didn't you see the Robot Chicken episode about Homonyms??? Dams and Cigarettes (though cigarettes and their supporters are getting grief and hate everywhere now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 If only it were so easy to call all everyone with a dissenting opinion 'ignorant'. America was founded on Christian principles, its influence can be seen in the Constitution all the way down to the money you hold. Gays are asking the nation to turn its back on the convictions that have been handed down through natural bloodlines for generations. Am I to say the Bible is wrong or fictitous to make you feel better, so you can adopt the very thing that comes unnatural to your behavior? Umm...no. I would rather remain 'ignorant'.I'm Jewish, but you mean the Christian principles of tolerance and love for all? :halo:And we're a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation. BIG difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E33Green Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Glad to see everyone is as excited for the new "Bruno" movie as I am. "I gave him a traditional African name...OJ!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 If only it were so easy to call all everyone with a dissenting opinion 'ignorant'. America was founded on Christian principles No, America was NOT founded on Christian principles. Only ignorant people believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I never caught Jesus' stance on gays. Anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 I guess Because it means more than one thing. Didn't you see the Robot Chicken episode about Homonyms??? Dams and Cigarettes (though cigarettes and their supporters are getting grief and hate everywhere now) But you're going to get a dirty look from someone when you ask them for one of those cigs. Kind of like if you choose to say "niggardly" in place of "stingy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Please explain how those two ideas work together, if you would. You're going to teach your children that NOT everyone is equal, just to treat them that way? Allow me to provide an example. Everyone is dealt a hand of cards... You play your hand of cards as dealt and make personal choices based on that hand of cards, knowing that your choices have consequences and taking responsibility... Regardless of the hands dealt (or the choices people make later), you don't make fun of people for the hand they were dealt or the choices made. You also don't try to exploit their circumstances for your own gain. However, you shouldn't pretend that all cards are equal in everyone else's eyes or the cards have no meaning to others. You also shouldn't demand cards be re-dealt to everyone or that certain cards in your hand should have more value in the eyes of others. Side Note: Human compassion and morals guide equality in a materialistic/Darwinian world driven by natural selection. Asking people to "junk their morals" (as was expressed in another thread) in order to achieve equality would be counter-productive. You'd have to find a way to appeal to someone's sense of morality, not "junk it". Off-topic, but it was discussed somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I never caught Jesus' stance on gays. Anyone else? If you actually cared, you'd probably not be asking the question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 If you actually cared, you'd probably not be asking the question... True. But, I've never actually heard or read Christ's views on homosexuality. And when someone says that this country was founded on christian principles and that that is a legitimate basis for denying homosexual's rights, I'd like to know the basis for that, other than the Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljs Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Actually, that is interesting although I am sure it is innocent and not indicative of anything. . I was only pointing it out due to the mass comparison of discrimation of homos and blacks. Btw, did you feel my comparison of Jews and Gypsy discrimination was apt. I hadn't really thought about it too deeply before, but something in this conversation reminded me of Jews hiding and pretending to be Christian in America back in the 50's and earlier and wearing crosses to fit in. I read that and I don't have a solid opinion yet, stil thinking about it. But it does make sense. Although being Jewish is more than a religioun, isn't Jewish also a race/nationality I would suggest then,that you try reporting such uses of the words more often. Because I have,(and I know other mods have),warned and banned people for using those terms a well as other similar disparaging terms. I have no control over the filters,but I can control,to an extent,the use of words such as those. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. Well the time I did report it not long ago- it was excused by two mods because the person used the term faggot as a movie quote. I think that if I used ****** as a movie quote- well it would just be stared out so it wouldn't matter. Again just giving examples of the different "discrimiation" practices of homo's vs black people and that even something as simple as a word used on a message board shows those differences. I am also very surprsied that the board (mods) seem to allow this considering its a more "left/liberal" site in regard to peoples political views. Just sayin.... I guess Because it means more than one thing.Didn't you see the Robot Chicken episode about Homonyms??? Dams and Cigarettes (though cigarettes and their supporters are getting grief and hate everywhere now) LOL, I haven't seen it but yes am aware that the "f" word has had numerous meaning throughout the years-including a pile of sticks. Same with the word gay- used to mean happy, then homo and now stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm pretty sure Hitler went after the non-practicing jews too. So even if you "chose" not to be Jewish, you were still considered Jewish and thrown into a concentration camp.But still, keep in mind that I did not say that "all discrimination based on any behavior is ok", only that our society does in fact discriminate based on behavior and that it IS different than discriminating because of how somebody looks. Can you give me one example of "discrimination against behavior" that isn't immoral? (I'll give you a hint: If society has a legitimate reason why a behavior must be suppressed, (like, say, prohibiting armed robbery is necessary to protect people's right not to be robbed), then it's not discrimination. It's discrimination if the only reason for legislating against someone is that a lot of people don't like their kind.) Man. It's so tough to argue when I actually agree with you. I understand the position. (Which is why I'm not going to point out what's wrong with your arguments.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (Isn't that also why the KKK used the cross as one of their symbols? Because they didn't like Jews, either?) Not sure about that, but it seems likely. Groups like the KKK hate just about everybody. I read that and I don't have a solid opinion yet, stil thinking about it. But it does make sense. Although being Jewish is more than a religioun, isn't Jewish also a race/nationality That's tough. It's sometimes called a race, but because of the diaspora, Jews sorta fled everywhere... that's why you have blonde Jews, Chinese Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc. So, I think of it much more in terms of a culture than a race. It's also why there are such different traditions amongst Jewish groups of different nationalities. They had centuries without communication to practice and develop their beliefs and rituals. (But this is probably going further off track.) I do think that Judaism is more than a religion though because even non-practicing ones identify themselves as Jewish... there are even Jewish atheist groups (which is really weird to me) and the well-known Jews for Jesus (who've decided that Jesus is the messiah, but don't want to surrender their heritage). Still, I think the reason they don't forgo the name is because of the heritage and responsibility they feel towards it due to the pain and struggle and prejudices their parents and forbares went through. It is an invisible label, but a very prominent one. It exists under the surface of almost every situation and exerts itself rarely, but it is always there. I imagine that might be true for being homosexual too. Through most of life you are a part of everything and everything is fine, but there's always that undercurrent of other that you are aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudechain Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 If only it were so easy to call all everyone with a dissenting opinion 'ignorant'. America was founded on Christian principles, its influence can be seen in the Constitution all the way down to the money you hold. Gays are asking the nation to turn its back on the convictions that have been handed down through natural bloodlines for generations. Am I to say the Bible is wrong or fictitous to make you feel better, so you can adopt the very thing that comes unnatural to your behavior? Umm...no. I would rather remain 'ignorant'. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. And then there is this one. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. so while I follow the christian doctrine, I also believe in some of the other doctrines such as the first amendment of the US constitution. And the question was concerning gays adopting. I have yet to see a reasonably formed argument as to why they should not be allowed and these kids should remains wards of the state. And ignorant basically means not being fully informed of the facts. Sorry if it hurts your feelings but your posts have smacked of ignorance. Should you choose to live that way, it's your choice, but it is still my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 II am also very surprsied that the board (mods) seem to allow this considering its a more "left/liberal" site in regard to peoples political views. *giggle* Compared to what? You really think that a 90% male forum made up almost entirely of football fans is left/liberal? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljs Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 *giggle* Compared to what?You really think that a 90% male forum made up almost entirely of football fans is left/liberal? :laugh: you do put that in a funny light, but no- thinking of mostly the tailgate area (as I do spend more time here)...think of the politics threads- then tell me who is outnumbered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 It's cyclic. You should have been here a few years ago. I think there may be slightly more libs now, but on the other hand you have guys like Luckydevil, Skinshokiefan, Thiebear, and several others who really soured on "Republicans recently and so while their posts may seem more lib, they are spurned conservatives. I think it is closer to 50/50 than it has been in a while, but some of the conservative voices are still really loud... one might even say bombastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I think it is closer to 50/50 than it has been in a while, but some of the conservative voices are still really loud... one might even say bombastic. You have to yell loud, when somebody has their head in the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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