DB: Should Obama Honor Dixie?

[Johnny Punani]

So what? Any one state or region is always "subjugated" to a larger remainder of the country. California is "subjugated" to the rest of the United States. So is Michigan and the Great Lakes states. So is South Dakoda.

Why was it that the Confederate States, and only they, felt they needed to avoid this hypothetical subjugdation so much more than anyone else who is part of a union, so much more that they needed to secede?

What was different about their situation, what was this subjugation likely to change, what was the fear, what was the motivation?

*using Sam Kinnison's voice*

"Say it! Saaay it!!!!!"

Back then states had more rights then they do now (remember this whole idea on federalism???) I think it is pretty clear the South didn't want to be stuck on the short end of the political/economic stick for the next 100+ years. Now I know you want be to say it was because of slavery and that's part of the reason but it main crux is what the end of slavery would do to the south's economy. They would be more dependent on the North.

Remember the old saying "Money is Power"? We see the samething today with the federal government. "If you want some funding you do what we say" or "We don't like the choice you made on something. We are going to pull your funding until you change your opinion to something we like."

[LaxBuddy21]

That is all just a tiny bit of icing on an enormous 5 layer wedding cake.

"There would be economic troubles.... ummm..... if we lost the right to keep slaves.

We would be politically dominated by more populous states.... umm... and thus would lose our right to keep slaves.

It wasn't about racial superiority.... ummm..... it was about the economic need to keep slaves of people of another race.

It is NOT unfair to say that the war was about slavery and the overriding need to keep slavery as an institution. Pretending it was about anything OTHER than slavery requires the real mental gymnastics.

Which is why no one other than a proud southerner ever buys this argument.

I bet you are one of those people that gets offended when someone flies the confederate flag too aren't you? Since it represents slavery and racism right?

[zoony]

I bet you are one of those people that gets offended when someone flies the confederate flag too aren't you? Since it represents slavery and racism right?

We just went from warp speed to ludicrous speed

[Johnny Punani]

We just went from warp speed to ludicrous speed

Yeap...:laugh:

[Predicto]

You just can't say it.

It's ok. I understand. I was raised in Virginia too. I made all these arguments to people for the first 30 years of my life. Had a Battle Flag hanging in my dorm room in college.

Eventually, the mental gymnastics got too convoluted for me and I had to accept reality. It WAS about slavery, the state's right to keep laws permitting slavery, the need not to accept an impending political reality where we couldn't keep slaves, etc.

When the fur trapping trade became unprofitable, the people of places like Nebraska and Michigan didn't lament the change and try to secede from the US. They moved into farming and manufacturing and so on. The economic changes were wrenching, they were going to be "dependent" on the East now....

but they had no "peculiar institution" that they needed to defend so much that they were willing to chuck in the whole thing and fight a war. The South did. It was called slavery.

[zoony]

Nice Johnny! OLS

[Predicto]

I bet you are one of those people that gets offended when someone flies the confederate flag too aren't you? Since it represents slavery and racism right?

Lol.

Glad I wrote my last post before I read this one. The post where I said that I had a Battle Flag flying in my dorm room in college.

You are right, of course. I do not support the flying of the Battle Flag (though I do support your Constutional Right to fly whatever you wish). I think flying that flag is in bad taste, and demonstrates that you don't care a bit about anyone's feelings but your own. I think that there are other ways to be proud of your heritage rather than using that particular symbol.

I came to that conclusion after one of my friends came to visit me in my room and saw that flag. His name was Francis, and he was a black guy from Selma, Alabama. We had a conversation where he explained to me how HE felt when he saw that flag, and what it represented to him and his family. Opened my eyes a bit.

[Johnny Punani]

You just can't say it.

It's ok. I understand. I was raised in Virginia too. I made all these arguments to people for the first 30 years of my life. Had a Battle Flag hanging in my dorm room in college.

Eventually, the mental gymnastics got too convoluted for me and I had to accept reality. It WAS about slavery, the state's right to keep laws permitting slavery, the need not to accept an impending political reality where we couldn't keep slaves, etc.

When the fur trapping trade became unprofitable, the people of places like Nebraska and Michigan didn't lament the change and try to secede from the US. They moved into farming and manufacturing and so on. The economic changes were wrenching, they were going to be "dependent" on the East now....

but they had no "peculiar institution" that they needed to defend so much that they were willing to chuck in the whole thing and fight a war. The South did. It was called slavery.

Wow, what a statement...:laugh:

[LaxBuddy21]

Lol.

Glad I wrote my last post before I read this one. The post where I said that I had a Battle Flag flying in my dorm room in college.

You are right, of course. I do not support the flying of the Battle Flag (though I do support your Constutional Right to fly whatever you wish). I think flying that flag is in bad taste, and demonstrates that you don't care a bit about anyone's feelings but your own. I think that there are other ways to be proud of your heritage rather than using that particular symbol.

I came to that conclusion after one of my friends came to visit me in my room and saw that flag. His name was Francis, and he was a black guy from Selma, Alabama. We had a conversation where he explained to me how HE felt when he saw that flag, and what it represented to him and his family. Opened my eyes a bit.

I would tell you friend he should feel the same way about the American flag because that is the flag that we all flew under for how many years while slavery was enacted? Northerners had slaves as well. See again this is one of my biggest problems with society. Everyone is offended over everything and its beyond ridiculous. Was he a slave? Was his mother a slave? My family were share croppers which was the next step up from slavery but you dont see me getting all worked up over it. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that your friend gets upset over that flag. Now if the guy flying it was a giant tool that really thought slavery should have never been abolished, he can get offended by the person but that is not what the flag represents at all.

[twa]

Wow, what a statement...:laugh:

Perhaps he is overcompensating now for earlier excesses?

Never felt the need or desire for personally displaying the Stars and Bars myself,but have no objection to it in ceremonial/official instances.:whoknows:

[Predicto]

I would tell you friend he should feel the same way about the American flag because that is the flag that we all flew under for how many years while slavery was enacted? Northerners had slaves as well. See again this is one of my biggest problems with society. Everyone is offended over everything and its beyond ridiculous. Was he a slave? Was his mother a slave? My family were share croppers which was the next step up from slavery but you dont see me getting all worked up over it. I think it is absolutely ridiculous that your friend gets upset over that flag. Now if the guy flying it was a giant tool that really thought slavery should have never been abolished, he can get offended by the person but that is not what the flag represents at all.

We choose what symbols we put out there, knowing that they have symbolic value. If you choose to put a Nazi flag in front of your house, you are going to be sending a message out, whether you like it or not. And Jewish people are going to feel that message especially strongly.

(No I'm not saying that the Confederacy was as bad as the Nazis, so don't go there).

When a black person sees someone proudly flying the Confederate Battle Flag, they do not associate it with simple southern pride, NASCAR and Chick-Fil-A.

They associate it with slavery, Jim Crow, Bull Connor, opposition to the Civil Rights movement, etc. You may not INTEND to send that message, but that is the message you are actually sending to a lot of people.

When they see an American flag, they do not associate it with slavery or bad things. You see, that is how symbols work. People associate them with specific things, regardless of whether or not you intend to send out that message.

I decided that it was not important enough to send out a negative message that I myself did not believe in. I got a Virginia state flag instead.

By the way, you are correct that Francis was never a slave, nor was his mother. However, his uncle (grandfather's brother) was lynched in the woods near Selma in the late 1950s. And I can't prove it, but I bet those guys were waving Confederate Battle Flags.

[BigMike619]

Im sorry, did you just say you had a rebel flag in your dorm room?

[Predicto]

Wow, what a statement...:laugh:

It was rather brilliant, was it not? Thanks for the compliment.

[Predicto]

Im sorry, did you just say you had a rebel flag in your dorm room?

Sure did.

Before I went off to college, it mostly was draped on the back dashboard of my 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 (except when I went down into DC to go to bars and stuff. Even then I somehow subconsciously knew that it might not go over well there).

And it's generally called the Battle Flag, I think.

[BigMike619]

Sure did.

Before I went off to college, it mostly was draped on the back dashboard of my 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 (except when I went down into DC to go to bars and stuff. Even then I somehow subconsciously knew that it might not go over well there).

And it's generally called the Battle Flag, I think.

well well well...

look who's human after all

seriously though I am glad to hear this because I like that you can see both sides of everything and even if your stance has changed you do know what is going thru people's heads when they fly it. Well except for those that ARE blatantly racist.

Ive always called it a rebel flag..but whatever's whatever

[Baculus]

I think it would be entirely appropriate for Pres. Obama to honor the Confederate deceased. After all, they were Americans, too, and part of the Union for most of their lives.

[Predicto]

well well well...

look who's human after all

seriously though I am glad to hear this because I like that you can see both sides of everything and even if your stance has changed you do know what is going thru people's heads when they fly it. Well except for those that ARE blatantly racist.

Ive always called it a rebel flag..but whatever's whatever

If you noticed, my early posts in this thread were trying to be somewhat supportive of southerners' attitudes on the civil war. I think they are dead wrong as a matter of history, but I understand where they got those views. I used to hold them.

But then (as it often does) some people on here took offense, and the conversation changed and got more personal and people started acting like I was the next Al Sharpton.

Oh well, that's life on the internet.

[Predicto]

I think it would be entirely appropriate for Pres. Obama to honor the Confederate deceased. After all, they were Americans, too, and part of the Union for most of their lives.

I agree. And I suspect that Obama is smart enough not to make a fuss about this issue.

[BigMike619]

If you noticed, my early posts in this thread were trying to be somewhat supportive of southerners' attitudes on the civil war. I think they are dead wrong as a matter of history, but I understand where they got those views. I used to hold them.

But then (as it often does) some people on here took offense, and the conversation changed and got more personal and people started acting like I was the next Al Sharpton.

Oh well, that's life on the internet.

hug?

I read the whole thread and I knew where you were coming from.

[nonniey]

I don't know about all that..... It's like saying Sonny was an inferior Qback to Dilfer because Dilfer won the Super bowl and Sonny never did.

Fact is Grant had all the cards and he knew it. Grant could loose 10 men for every man Lee could loose and he knew it. Grant's "genuis" was his willingness to throw him men at Lee regardless of the costs knowing eventually Lee's forces would be depleated, and the North would keep on supplying him with more troops and supplies.

I don't know of any military men or historians who would consider Grant a superior General to Lee. I think rather they all agree that Grant understood what had to be done, and he had the self disipline to do it.

Lincolns other six generals he tried before Grant lacked one of those two assets.

Nope, you mixed up tactics with strategy somewhat. Lee was very focused on the Battles his own army of Northern Virginia was involved in and never really concerned himself with events outside his area of operations. Grant not only controlled the Army of the Potomac but directed all the Union armies efforts(and even some of the Navy's efforts). Longstreet and Forrest were the best stratgists the south had and they wanted to link the efforts of the souths armies but Lee successfully resisted this (To the detriment of the Confederacy). BTW now you know of one (a military man) who considers Grant to be superior, and most of the ones I know, also consider Grant to be a better overall General (Lee was superior as a tactician).

[AAARedskin]

None of this matters....all of Obama's willing LIB accomplices in the media will ignore all of this, and not even cover the story. Oh no....better not write a story in the press about OUR LIB HERO that could possibly make him look bad and insensitive......

[Ax]

The war was fought over secession, nothing else.

They had the right to secede, IMO, no matter how foolish it may or may not have been.

They could have listed pickles in their declarations for all Lincoln cared.

Secession was his enemy, not slavery.

[Larry]

The war was fought over secession, nothing else.

They had the right to secede, IMO, no matter how foolish it may or may not have been.

They could have listed pickles in their declarations for all Lincoln cared.

Secession was his enemy, not slavery.

I think you're half right.

Lincoln was fighting over secession.

The South was fighting over slavery.

[Ax]

You're half right.

Lincoln was fighting over secession.

The South was fighting over slavery.

But if Lincoln had chose not to fight secession, there would have been no war.

The south might have seceded over slavery, but they both fought over the secession.

[zoony]

And just when I think the argument couldn't be stretched any more thin