DB: Should Obama Honor Dixie?

[Ax]

An average lawyer could make a compelling case on the factual aspects of it, no?

[Larry]

But if Lincoln had chose not to fight secession, there would have been no war.

And if the South chose not to fight, there would have been no war.

If France hadn't objected to Hitler conquering them, there would have been no war.

In any war, both sides can claim that "well, this war is the other side's fault, because they didn't do what we told them".

The significance of this is . . . ?

[Larry]

And just when I think the argument couldn't be stretched any more thin

Tailgate: Beating dead horses since 2000.

[BigMike619]

and if the south chose not to fight, there would have been no war.

If france hadn't objected to hitler conquering them, there would have been no war.

In any war, both sides can claim that "well, this war is the other side's fault, because they didn't do what we told them".

The significance of this is . . . ?

its france's fault!!

[Tut77]

Predicto,

My hat off to you, good sir. I always appreciate the balance and thoughtfulness put into your posts and you have been absolutely true to form in this thread.

On topic--I think Obama should not honor the Confederate war dead. For the reasons cited in the original post, and because, well, he's black. As clearly explained by Predicto and others, the war was about slavery. Period. Those soldiers being honored, fought for the purpose of preserving an abomination of an institution that sought to keep the ancestors of all blacks in human bondage. That war ended over 140 years ago, but the aftereffects of it were felt until ...the 1980s? 1990s? 2000s? Jim Crow, lynchings domestic terrorism. (And for those who think Jim Crow was nothing more than separate water fountains and seating in the back of the bus, guess again--my godfather still has scars on his arms from dog bites he got while marching for civil rights. My dad's father was hanged from a tree in his back yard in 1947).

Predicto, I'm also glad you mentioned the story of your friend Francis and the confederate flag you had in your room. I had a similar experience (from the other side) and my friend was clueless about why that flag made me so uncomfortable. Although I am very well versed in the history of the confederate battle flag, I do associate it with the KKK and racists of that ilk. I associate it with t-shirts reading, "the original boyz n the hood," showing images of hooded klansmen, and hats reading "you have your 'X,' we have ours---with the stars and bars (rebel flag) underneath.

Southern pride is understandable too, especially as regards the southern soldiers. There were some very colorful characters and generally, their stories are more heroic and gallant than the Union's. Until Grant and Sherman, they Union generals fought like a bunch of idiots.

As an aside, the book, "Confederates in the Attic" is an excellent read and can give insight to people who don't understand the southern pride associated with the civil war and the fact that many people do in fact see it as a tribute to their heritage. However, that same heritage and nostalgia for the good old days only means one thing for us black folk---slavery. So while others celebrate their heritage, what does that mean for us? The heritage celebrated is invariably described using terms like "freedom," "chivalry" and "gentility." But for us there was no freedom, chivalry or gentility.I also remember the 'Southern Pride' parade my undergrad school had every year, replete with confederate flags and students dressed in 'period costume' and how uncomfortable, offended and angry that made all the black students. Someone once suggested (in semi jest) that they should have slaves too. Which is the significance--if there is southern pride and nostalgia for the 'good ol' days', we are reduced to being slaves. The old VA state song, 'Take Me Back to Ol' Virginny' is actually about a slave pining to return home to his old master. It doesn't make us happy.

Most confederate soldiers did not own slaves, but all white southerners benefited from the institution of slavery. Economically and socially. No one wants to be on the bottom rung of society, and as long as there was slavery, it was guaranteed that no white would ever be on the bottom. Now, that same social hierarchy existed in the south until....well, now, but having official, state sanctioned slavery is a whole 'nother level.

Lee was a superior tactician, a superior motivator of men, and superior in his capacity to modify his tactics and behavior. Lee squeezed more out of what little he had than Grant did. Lee was better at delegating to his commanders and allowing them to make use of their talents. Grant, however, was ruthless. He had bigger balls than all the commanders that preceded him and he adapted better. He was also wasteful in spending human lives, but he was more decisive, not a pansy and was willing to use what he had to his advantage. Which was, an advantage in men and materiel. The north had always had that advantage, but the previous commanders were too soft to take advantage of it.

Pickett's charge--really an anomaly in Lee's behavior. Lee was often agressive, but he wasn't stupid and he usually listened to his generals. In fact, Pickett's charge is more like something you would expect the Union army to do (see e.g., Fredericksburg, Antietam, Petersburg, etc.). Should've listened to Longstreet.

[BigMike619]

On topic--I think Obama should not honor the Confederate war dead. For the reasons cited in the original post, and because, well, he's black.

__________________________________________

thats exactly why this country is stuck in a rut. he is supposed to be above his color now if he is leading the country. he isnt looking out for black people, he is looking out for American people. and like it or not those people were Americans.

Im sure there were plenty of black people who our white president's didnt like or agree with but when it comes to tradition and honoring the dead as a representative of this country they do it because their personal feelings should be put aside.

[Predicto]

None of this matters....all of Obama's willing LIB accomplices in the media will ignore all of this, and not even cover the story. Oh no....better not write a story in the press about OUR LIB HERO that could possibly make him look bad and insensitive......

Until now, a thread full of thoughtful and well-reasoned posts.

Thanks for bringing us back to typical Tailgate standards of shallow, stupid hit and run posting. We wouldn't want to break with tradition. Someone might actually learn something.

[Duckus]

None of this matters....all of Obama's willing LIB accomplices in the media will ignore all of this, and not even cover the story. Oh no....better not write a story in the press about OUR LIB HERO that could possibly make him look bad and insensitive......

Ignore what exactly? You do realize that nothing has happened, that this is simply a possible situation we are debating. So you are right - the media has complete ignored something that has not even happened yet.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

But if Lincoln had chose not to fight secession, there would have been no war.

The south might have seceded over slavery, but they both fought over the secession.

I always found it to be that the South wanted to secede because they felt the North was impeding on their rights.

[Ghost of]

Fact is only one of the founding fathers freed his slaves. Upon his death George Washington freed half of his slaves.. Washington freed his slaves, the rest belonged to his wife who was a woman of means when they were married.

Have you read An Imperfect God?

It's a pretty interesting book that covers Washington's evolving attitudes towards slavery, blacks and goes on to larger issues like what would constitute a good citizen (far more inclusive than his 19th century intellectual descendants.)

I'd say Washington, by the end, was closer to the ideal we would like to portray and sustain than any other of the Southern founders, EXCEPT the father and son who crippled themselves economically by selling their slaves and actively becoming anti-slavery members of the Patriot cause. Can't remember their names now.

In any case, I came away with more respect for the 'lesser' intellectual light of Washington compared to Jefferson, Henry and others. Going to show that true wisdom, courage and worth are not solely (and maybe rarely are) the province of a given society's 'intellectual' class.

[Predicto]

On topic--I think Obama should not honor the Confederate war dead. For the reasons cited in the original post, and because, well, he's black.

__________________________________________

thats exactly why this country is stuck in a rut. he is supposed to be above his color now if he is leading the country. he isnt looking out for black people, he is looking out for American people. and like it or not those people were Americans.

Im sure there were plenty of black people who our white president's didnt like or agree with but when it comes to tradition and honoring the dead as a representative of this country they do it because their personal feelings should be put aside.

I hope you got more out of Tut's post than that. He is black, and he is giving you a lot of information about how this FEELS to black people.

[Predicto]

I always found it to be that the South wanted to secede because they felt the North was impeding on their rights.

Again. What "rights," exactly?

[BigMike619]

I hope you got more out of Tut's post than that. He is black, and he is giving you a lot of information about how this FEELS to black people.

and? obama isnt "a black president" he is the president. thats it.

save the black/white **** for some place else and keep it out of the white house. he doesnt represent black people he represents the people period.

and you know what? if you want to respect Tut's post then you should respect mine. Im telling you how this feels to American people who arent hung up on guilt or race.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Again. What "rights," exactly?

Their "rights" to own slaves. It was what the southern economy was based upon.

I think they felt it was along the lines of, "if they take away our slaves, what are they going to take away next?" :whoknows:

[Predicto]

and? obama isnt "a black president" he is the president. thats it.

save the black/white **** for some place else and keep it out of the white house. he doesnt represent black people he represents the people period.

and you know what? if you want to respect Tut's post then you should respect mine. Im telling you how this feels to American people who arent hung up on guilt or race.

That's not what I said, and I do respect your posts and I agree with you. What is more, Obama has been bending over backwards to be a "post racial" president, and that is exactly what I want to see him do.

But there was a hell of a lot more to Tut's post than the first line. That's all I was trying to tell you.

[BigMike619]

I know, I read it but I commented the part that stuck to me.

He doesnt think he should honor him because he is black...that just doesnt seem right to me.

[Predicto]

I know, I read it but I commented the part that stuck to me.

He doesnt think he should honor him because he is black...that just doesnt seem right to me.

I don't agree with Tut either. But I read his post, and I can understand WHY he feels this way.

[Ax]

I hope you got more out of Tut's post than that. He is black, and he is giving you a lot of information about how this FEELS to black people.

Tut's post was a damn good one. However, not ALL black people feel that way.

He, obviously does.

For whatever reason one wishes to cite, thousands of blacks fought for the south. Whether they were forced, fooled, or proud to do so, they still died fighting. Don't they deserve a wreath?

He should lay a wreath, and move on. We'll see if he does. The threat of being labeled a "Tom" is a powerful one, though. He wouldn't be the first to alter his private thoughts, publicly, for fear of it.

[Ax]

And if the South chose not to fight, there would have been no war.

If France hadn't objected to Hitler conquering them, there would have been no war.

In any war, both sides can claim that "well, this war is the other side's fault, because they didn't do what we told them".

The significance of this is . . . ?

Come on now, Larry. As one of ES's better Tailgate Two-Steppers, you know EXACTLY what the significance is.

One..two..three..step..One..two..three..step..

Come on! We're dancing!:dance:One..two..three..step..

[twa]

For me the decision comes down to not needlessly giving offense or creating division.

But as Tut's post shows you are gonna offend someone regardless.

I guess that's why POTUS rakes in the big bucks eh?

Added

because, well, he's black. As clearly explained by Predicto and others, the war was about slavery. Period. Those soldiers being honored, fought for the purpose of preserving an abomination of an institution that sought to keep the ancestors of all blacks in human bondage

I believe you go too far here in that his race should not direct his decision,also in the use of all blacks.

All blacks were not in bondage(even in the south),some were even owned by blacks(though this tactic was also used for their benefit)

As sad and abominable as slavery was here ,it was primarily about property.(a regrettable choice allowed by the US from the beginning)

[Tut77]

I believe you go too far here in that his race should not direct his decision,also in the use of all blacks.

All blacks were not in bondage(even in the south),some were even owned by blacks(though this tactic was also used for their benefit)

As sad and abominable as slavery was here ,it was primarily about property.(a regrettable choice allowed by the US from the beginning)

You are of course, correct, that not all blacks were in bondage. However, I think it's pretty fair to say that confederate soldiers weren't fighting to uphold the non-bondage (I wouldn't quite call it freedom) of non-slave blacks in the south or elsewhere.

In any case, Obama sent the wreath to the CSA soldiers memorial. He also sent a wreath to the memorial to black Union soldiers (a Presidential first).

[HailGreen28]

Montgomery takes a look at the field over which General Picket was ordered by General Lee to cross and engage the Union troops.. ( Pickets Charge )... It's about a mile and a half of beutiful open fields, the confederate troops crossed under blistering fire from the Union, walking most of the way cause it was too long to run. The point where Picket penetrated the Union lines for a short time, before he was forced to retreat, is called the high water mark for the Confederacy because from that point forward, the Confederacy never went on the offensive in union territory again in the war, although the war went on for two more years.

Anyway Monty looks at the field and hears the story of General Pickets charge, and proclaims Lee ( who ordered the charge ), was insane, incompetent, and criminal. The press turns to Eisenhower and asks his opinion. Eisenhower turns all red in the face. He knows as President there is no way to answer the question without upsetting half the country. He never invites Montgomery back for another visit.

So Monty fails at military history. A lot of battles were WON under such conditions during that time period. In fact the Civil War, with rifled muskets and introduction of repeaters, was one of the first "wakeup calls" that such tactics were becoming too costly.

Figures, Monty failed as a tactician himself anyways. His only skill as a general was amassing overwhelming numerical superiority*, and sometimes getting his ass kicked anyways.

*And he had no control of being on the wealthiest most populous side. Rommel or Kesselring would've kicked Monty's ass on even terms. Thankfully, even terms they weren't.

[twa]

In any case, Obama sent the wreath to the CSA soldiers memorial. He also sent a wreath to the memorial to black Union soldiers (a Presidential first).

A wise decision...I hope for many more.

[Tut77]

and? obama isnt "a black president" he is the president. thats it.

save the black/white **** for some place else and keep it out of the white house. he doesnt represent black people he represents the people period.

and you know what? if you want to respect Tut's post then you should respect mine. Im telling you how this feels to American people who arent hung up on guilt or race.

While I respect that others have differing opinions on this, and I can understand and respect WHY people believe the confederate soldiers should be honored, I have to take umbrage with this point. If you think my objection to honoring conferedate dead can be boiled down and written off as an example of being "hung up on guilt or race," I would propose that you have a narrow and incomplete understanding of history, and how human perception is shaped by experience.

Honoring the CSA memorial is honoring enemies of the nation. As patriotic as you have shown yourself to be, you should understand that. Soldiers of the CSA took up arms against their own country. Why should that be honored? When you look at post-battle photos from the Civil War and see the swollen bodies scattered over the fields, or read the casualty numbers in the tens of thousands PER DAY at some battles---casualties directly caused by confederate soldiers---why should that be honored?

The Civil War was an enormous setback for our country-- in lives lost, land and commerce destroyed, and in seeding deep racial animosity regarding the war, its causes, its outcome and its aftermath----directly brought about by those same CSA soldiers----why should that be honored? And to top it all off (and this is where my being black comes into play for me personally)----the REASON the south seceded and caused so much devastation and destruction was slavery.

So, all of the above, topped with the cherry of knowing that all that destruction, etc. came about because they fought for the right to keep my ancestors in bondage. Maybe I'm just hung up on race, but to me, that's not a particularly noble cause.

Do we as a nation owe them a token of gratitude as we owe those who fought FOR this country? And why is it that a monument to soldiers who fought in rebellion AGAINST this country has been in existence and honored since the 1930s, but not until 1998 was a memorial created for black Civil War soldiers who fought and died FOR this country? And prior to Obama today, no U.S. President had ever sent a wreath to that memorial. And before anyone asks why I'm singling out black Union soldiers, it's because they all fought in segregated units for about half the pay. They truly fought for their country, yet they received no memorial until 1998 and no wreath until today.

Further, considering that as a result of the Civil War, Reconstruction and post-Reconstruction ushered in the beginning of domestic terror by the KKK (which, incidentally, was begun by a group of disaffected CSA vets), U.S. apartheid, the 3rd/ 4th class citizenship of southern blacks, "separate but equal" etc.----my opinion is not just a matter of being "hung up on race."

The Civil War was always interesting to me for the brutality of the warfare (technology having outpaced tactics), coupled with the gentility, and codes of honor and respect between the opposing combatants. However, as a black man and student of history, that romantic view of honor and gentility is stained by the knowledge that the CSA refused a formal request from Pres. Lincoln that captured black soldiers be treated as POWs, and knowledge that rebel soldiers would typically kill black soldiers who surrendered or were captured (there were several well documented massacres of captured/ surrendered black soldiers by confederate soldiers).

So why would I want to honor that?

[twa]

Tut, in their mind they fought for their country,State and region

The States made the choice to unite and later some to divide,which is not treason in my eyes....or would you have them in chains as well,w/o the freedom of self determination?

It seems a inconsistent position.