Acupuncture, real or fake, helps aching back: study

[China]

Acupuncture, real or fake, helps aching back: study

By Julie Steenhuysen

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Acupuncture brought more relief to people with back pain than standard treatments, whether it was done with a toothpick or a real needle, U.S. researchers said on Monday in a study that raises new questions about how acupuncture works.

For many patients, that benefit lasted for a year, the team reported in the Archives of Internal Medicine.

"Our study shows that you don't need to stick needles into people to get the same effect," said Dr. Daniel Cherkin of Group Health Center for Health Studies in Seattle, who led the study.

"Historically, some types of acupuncture have used non-penetrating needles. Such treatments may involve physiological effects that make a clinical difference," Karen Sherman of Group Health, who worked on the study, said in a statement.

The team, wanted to study the effects of different types of acupuncture in a large, carefully controlled study of 638 patients with chronic low back pain.

They divided patients into several groups. One got seven weeks of standardized acupuncture treatment known to be effective in back pain. Another group got an individually prescribed acupuncture treatment.

A third group was treated using a toothpick in a needle guide tube that did not pierce the skin as regular acupuncture does, but targeting the correct acupuncture "points".

A fourth group just got standard medical treatment, which included medication and physical therapy.

After eight weeks, 60 percent of the patients who got any type of acupuncture reported significant improvement in their ability to function compared with those who got standard medical care alone.

But there was no significant difference in the pain relief people got from the acupuncture using needles or from toothpicks.

Click on the link for the full article

[PeterMP]

It's called the placebo effect.

[Koolblue13]

It's called the placebo effect.

or that hitting those points of the body did actually make a difference.

after seeing a holistic chiropractor find out more about me (including Lymes), than 2 ERs and a bunch of doctors, I am sold on natural healing first.

[China]

That's one hell of a placebo, if it works in 60 percent of cases. They need to develop that placebo for cancer.

[Ellis]

I use acupuncture frequently for a lot of things. I swear by it. I thought it was some flakey hippy stuff... until I actually tried it.

[Koolblue13]

I use acupuncture frequently for a lot of things. I swear by it. I thought it was some flakey hippy stuff... until I actually tried it.

A lot of the "flakey hippy stuff" does actually work.

There are teas, that will aid more than pills, with no side effects.

Foods you eat, can and do more than drugs.

Heck, Yoga will help get rid of back pain and help you lose weight.

[PeterMP]

That's one hell of a placebo, if it works in 60 percent of cases. They need to develop that placebo for cancer.

Cancer isn't caused by psychological stress.

[ACW]

I'm skeptical of alternative medicine (thanks mainly to hucksters like Trudeau) but this study is interesting.

[PeterMP]

A lot of the "flakey hippy stuff" does actually work.

There are teas, that will aid more than pills, with no side effects.

Foods you eat, can and do more than drugs.

Heck, Yoga will help get rid of back pain and help you lose weight.

I think most doctors would agree that if you have back pain, for most people, losing weight by most methods is a good thing.

If your back pain appears to be largely stress induced so would anything that helps you relax, such as moderate exercise does many times.

[Koolblue13]

I think most doctors would agree that if you have back pain, for most people, losing weight by most methods is a good thing.

If your back pain appears to be largely stress induced so would anything that helps you relax, such as moderate exercise does many times.

I reread the article and didn't see anything about "stress related back pain".

[TheGoodBits]

This thread is an excellent example of the typical America/Western response to "alternative" medicines. Acupuncture has been used by the Chinese for a long time, yet we view it very sceptically because we are unfamiliar with it. Most of us feel that our medicines and medical practices are far superior than others, but in many cases this is not true.

[PeterMP]

I reread the article and didn't see anything about "stress related back pain".

Well, they are dealing with back pain and a lot of back/neck pain appears to be stress induced, so unless they are doing something to specifically eliminate such people they are going to be looking at that.

Eur Spine J. 2009 Apr 28.

"Predictors of neck pain with moderate to large effect sizes were female gender (HR: 3.07; 95% CI: 1.18-7.99) and high psychological stress (HR: 1.64; 95% CI: 0.66-4.07).

J Adv Nurs. 2009 Mar;65(3):516-24.

"Age, female gender, smoking, occupation, perceived work stress and heavy lifting were statistically significant risk-factors when multivariate logistic regression techniques were conducted (P < 0.05)."

Perceived job insecurity, job predictability, personality, and health.

Lau B, Knardahl S.

"Type-A behavior predicted an increase in upper back pain (beta 0.07), while optimism predicted a change in lower back pain (beta -0.07). CONCLUSIONS: Job insecurity is associated with health; this association is strongest for mental distress and self-reported health, and weaker for back-pain."

***EDIT***

I'm not saying that acupuncture is bad. If it is a way for you to feel beter, I'm fine with it, but it is probably related to relieving stress and not anything overly medical or physical with the specific points being hit.

[Koolblue13]

I am not making a point that stress doesn't cause lower back pain, you just seem to be hanging onto stress being a major contributor.

Regardless, back pain is a problem and if this can help, great.

There are plenty of natural things that have shown to aid in the fight against cancer as well, if that was your point.

[RVAbrendan]

Yup, works. I've had it done to myself for lower back problems as well as an aid to help quit smoking. Awesome.

[PeterMP]

I am not making a point that stress doesn't cause lower back pain, you just seem to be hanging onto stress being a major contributor.

Regardless, back pain is a problem and if this can help, great.

There are plenty of natural things that have shown to aid in the fight against cancer as well, if that was your point.

Most studies that examine back pain cases where there is not a demonstrated spinal issue (e.g. herniated disc) conclude that stress is a MAJOR (if not primary) inducer of said back pain.

Now, most medical doctors don't help people relax. In fact, people find going to the doctor and taking medicine stressful so they aren't likely to actually help at all (and realilstically all a normal MD is going to do is give you pain medication/muscle relexants).

If going to your acupunturist helps you relax, then your back pain is gonig to get better when you visit your acupuncturist, but the going to the nail sallon and having a manucure would have the same effect if that helped you relax in the same manner/degree.

**EDIT***

Now, if you are losing weight AND relaxing as part of the "treatment" (e.g. your yoga comment), then you actually get a double good effect because being over weight is one of the other MAJOR impactors on back pain.

[Koolblue13]

**EDIT***

Now, if you are losing weight AND relaxing as part of the "treatment" (e.g. your yoga comment), then you actually get a double good effect because being over weight is one of the other MAJOR impactors on back pain.

I would have to see a study to give any credit to the nail salon being equal to acupuncture. There is more to it than just relaxing. It's a different level.

The reason I do Yoga on occasion (I would like to do it more) is because it helps with your posture, it's great exercise and very good for the soul.

The stance is the main thing with Yoga, and elongating the spine aids in blood flow and nervous system reactions. You body ends up working like it's suppose to and will then help with weight loss, increased energy and better brain function.

I will not argue that stress is a major contributor to a majority of health problems, that will only compound into more serious ones themselves either.

[SkinInsite]

My friends swear by it, but having people sticking me with needle would freak me out.

I don't even like seeing other people getting shots.

[boofMcboof]

or that hitting those points of the body did actually make a difference.

after seeing a holistic chiropractor find out more about me (including Lymes), than 2 ERs and a bunch of doctors, I am sold on natural healing first.

Whiskey, I do believe you have some asian blood in you.

[Mooka]

My coworker is studying acupuncture.

She gives the bomb massage.

[Koolblue13]

Whiskey, I do believe you have some asian blood in you.

Thanks. lol. I do have quite the mix.

You guys have a lot of things right. Medicine and Food being two big ones.

Now, add French Wine and Cheese, with Italian meats to American Music and we have ourselves a winner.

[boofMcboof]

Thanks. lol. I do have quite the mix.

You guys have a lot of things right. Medicine and Food being two big ones.

Now, add French Wine and Cheese, with Italian meats to American Music and we have ourselves a winner.

I love meshing East with West. Funny how the diametric modes of thinking eventually arrive to the same conclusion.

[Koolblue13]

I love meshing East with West. Funny how the diametric modes of thinking eventually arrive to the same conclusion.

I have been dating this new girl and on mondays we get a few bottle of Sancerre and a big Sushi sampler.

The french sav blanc has enough character to stand alone and acidic to cut the fatty fish and really release the flavors of the fish. It's a great combo.

Thats one of the best things about America, the combination of all the cultures coming together. Strange how health care seems to still be looked down upon if it's not in the mold of the norm. That does seem to be changing though.

[Special K]

Interesting study. I'll have to show this to my uncle and see what he thinks. He was an orthopedic surgeon for many years and got totally burnt out with medicine. His family is Chinese and he has always tried to blend his education in western medicine with his cultural ties to holistic therapy. About 5 years ago, he shut down the bulk of his ortho. practice and began offering acupuncture and other holistic treatments. I've learned so much from his experience and getting the chance to talk to him about his views on the culture clash in medicine...and after talking to him, I'm much more inclined to try acupuncture and other therapies should I am ever in the unfortunate circumstance of having chronic pain that can't be managed through traditional western medicine.

[boofMcboof]

The strangest thing about the health care system in the U.S. is the lack of prioritizing the importance of nutrition and food free from additives, hormones, etc. For how many thousands of years, our bodies fed off of completely natural food. Now we have things like margarine, corn syrup, hormone-injected protein supply that are completely fabricated which our bodies weren't designed to digest.

So many cultures around the world have a rock solid nutritional diet built on centuries of refinement. The Mediterranean diet comes to mind as do all the various Asian ones. Lower instances of diabetes, heart disease, the list goes on.

[PeterMP]

Thats one of the best things about America, the combination of all the cultures coming together. Strange how health care seems to still be looked down upon if it's not in the mold of the norm. That does seem to be changing though.

The problem becomes a reliable control. You can't easily fake acupuncture (there has been some work done using what is called 'sham acupuncture' that generally concludes that "real" acupuncture has little affect over the "sham", but the "real" acupunturist answer back any acupunture (even those not related to specific points (or actually inserting something into the skin (as done in this study)) have SOME affect and thereform "sham" acupuncture isn't a real control).

I can give you a "fake" pill and make it look like a "real" pill, and you can't tell the difference. I can't "fake" prick you with needles.

I also can't give you a "fake" manicure.

I will also point out, I think the "conflict" between "modern" medicine and "alternative" medicine is largely made up. If you go to a doctor for back pain and they can't dignose something (you don't have a herniated disc or a tumor affecting a nerve, etc.), nobody is going to tell you to NOT to a acupuncturist. And I doubt many acupunturist would tell a patient that has been dianosed with such an issue that they shouldn't also AT LEAST proceede with "modern" medical treatments.

Understanding the difference is important, but I'd guess most (if not all) MDs would admit that there are issues (e.g. psychologoical stress) that are not easily diagnosed or treated via conventional medicine that other things might help.

It is something that has been studied, but going to a "normal" doctor increases stress (I think a lot of that is just the waiting you have to do). If you have a stress related illness:

1. There isn't much the doctor is going to do for you.

2. It'll likely get worse from the stress of going to the doctor.

Doing almost anything else that you think will "treat" your issue is almost certainly going to work better.