FOX SPORTS: Schein's Nine: Don't blow it in draft (Redskins related)

[Skinsinparadise]

I definitely don't think Zorn is "out of the loop", I just question exactly how they are approaching him about it. Danny and Vinny apparently love the kid. So what if they say to Zorn "We really want to draft this kid, he looks great, he may be inexperienced but that's why we have you here. You can work with him, right? You can make him successful." What is Zorn likely to say? "No, I'm not really sure I can. He certainly has talent but is too inexperienced to start any time soon" or "Well...yeah he has talent...yeah I could do it." I'm guessing the latter.

He would be in a tough spot. His boss wants something and is willing to give up quite a bit to get it. He might have reservations about the kid, or at least how long it would be before he could play a down, and he knows we are in serious need of O line and other positions. But would he be willing to stand pat if it came down to it? No way to know.

Agree no way to know. But for me I would assume there is a reason why Snyder gets excited about a player. Maybe Vinny and for that matter Scott Campbell are lying but it doesn't sound like Snyder is the guy reviewing tape -- so am gathering someone got into his ear and told him good things about Sanchez.

On some of the dumb trades they've made -- later on, in some cases we found out in news stories who were the guys that got excited: for example Al Saunders according to one report loved Brandon Lloyd and said that he has the best hands in the game. Gibbs loved Brunell and was the one who discovered Campbell, etc.

Maybe Zorn wasn't that initial guy that got excited about this. And Snyder does strike me like an overeager fan who can get going and want to make a deal when he falls in love with a player. But he doesn't strike me an idiot.

And heck just playing off of our own way of thinking, if we heard from a scout on the Redskins that Sanchez is the goods, but then Zorn was lukewarm about it, would we keep that excitement going? It was Snyder that hired Zorn and it was Snyder that I'd presume was into him because of his QB expertise.

For Snyder to tell Zorn look figure out how to do something with this guy that we are excited about and Zorn sucking it up and saying OK. Maybe. I am guessing otherwise.

Am guessing that Snyder would ask Zorn's take on both Campbell and Sanchez and do a compare contrast. If these guys spend forever interviewing coaches, and apparently do exhaustive research on the draft (according to Scott Campbell) hard for me to see a clear pattern of them making seat of the pants decisions concerning the draft where they'd make this call without consulting in a serious way the foremost expert on the team concerning the position in play.

[mistertim]

I ain't talking where someone picks him. How many games he started at USC under Pete Carroll in relation to it helping him in the NFL.

He is built for the WCO.

Doesn't matter if you "ain't talking" where someone picks him. It is a factor. Number of starts is a factor. Do you think for a second that the Pats would have even considered drafting him before the late rounds, even though their evaluators saw some talent in him? And do you think for a second they drafted him to actually start (or even necessarily thought he would make the team)? He sat on the bench and learned for a couple seasons, then played well when Brady went down.

We aren't talking about a 7th round guy who got next to nothing as a contract compared to most players and had the luxury of sitting and learning the system. We're talking about a guy with only one year of starting experience being at least a top 10 if not top 5 overall pick. You're talking $30 mil guaranteed probably. You think owners are going to pony up that sort of money for a guy to ride the pine? Pretty unlikely unless the organization is SMART and has a definite PLAN (aka not the Skins). Carson Palmer was the #1 overall pick but they still let him sit for a year and ajust to the NFL game before throwing him in and, according to him, it helped him immensely.

Best case for Sanchez he goes somewhere with a system that has been in place for a while, and a good but vet QB to learn from. And then he sits for at least one season. I think taking a guy with that few starts and throwing him in immediately or even soon is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially if you're a team with O line problems as well. Take a look at QBs with few college starts who were thrown into the fire in the past. Bust city.

[Going Commando]

We aren't talking about a 7th round guy who got next to nothing as a contract compared to most players and had the luxury of sitting and learning the system. We're talking about a guy with only one year of starting experience being at least a top 10 if not top 5 overall pick. You're talking $30 mil guaranteed probably. You think owners are going to pony up that sort of money for a guy to ride the pine? Pretty unlikely unless the organization is SMART and has a definite PLAN (aka not the Skins). Carson Palmer was the #1 overall pick but they still let him sit for a year and ajust to the NFL game before throwing him in and, according to him, it helped him immensely.

Best case for Sanchez he goes somewhere with a system that has been in place for a while, and a good but vet QB to learn from. And then he sits for at least one season. I think taking a guy with that few starts and throwing him in immediately or even soon is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially if you're a team with O line problems as well. Take a look at QBs with few college starts who were thrown into the fire in the past. Bust city.

I don't understand why you seem to think that if we drafted Sanchez, he'd start immediately. We have recent precedent to demonstrate that we aren't comfortable doing that.

We drafted Jason Campbell in the first round and he was Gibbs' guy. And we still made him wait a season and a half before he got to see the field. Why would you think we'd handle Sanchez any differently. If its because we'd take him in the top 10 and pay him a lot of money, that makes me think they would actually do more to protect him. Plus we already have Campbell to start next season, and a veteran Todd Collins who would get the job over Sanchez next year too.

And second, we run a WCO offense, which is the perfect system for Mark Sanchez. We have a QB friendly coach. We have decent receivers, good tight ends, and a terrific running game and defense. Some of those pieces might have changed by the time he'd be ready to start but in general they'll be there.

He'd have every opportunity to succeed here in Washington, it's actually one of his more ideal fits.

[mistertim]

Am guessing that Snyder would ask Zorn's take on both Campbell and Sanchez and do a compare contrast. If these guys spend forever interviewing coaches, and apparently do exhaustive research on the draft (according to Scott Campbell) hard for me to see a clear pattern of them making seat of the pants decisions concerning the draft where they'd make this call without consulting in a serious way the foremost expert on the team concerning the position in play.

I think you have a fair point there. Another concern I have is whether they have a plan if they get the guy they want. We have two young guys on our team already. Our current starter is solid and has shown flashes of great play, and the other has never taken a snap in a regular season NFL game. Our current starter is also going into his contract year. So you have a starter in his contract year and the $20 million shiny new guy and Colt. Let's say Campbell wins any competition and then plays at a lights out pro bowl level. Do you extend him? What then? Do you put Sanchez on the trading block? What if Campbell plays lights out but, for various reason, decides he doesn't want to play here anymore and takes a contract elsewhere? Do you throw Sanchez into the fire and hope he can handle it? Do you throw Colt in and hope he can handle it? Same question if JC plays poorly this year and they don't extend him. I just see so many possible scenarios for a train wreck in the near future if we draft Sanchez.

[Skinsinparadise]

But hey, cut me some slack. I was not only posting from memory, I was also driving at the time. The former is probably equally as dangerous as the latter. :paranoid:

Because of Sanchez's accuracy, Lewin says he's probably a better prospect than Stafford. However, that's somewhat balanced by Sanchez's small number of starts (i.e. small sample size) at USC. In other words, if he works out, he'll likely be very good, however there's a very real risk that his numbers, though good, are an anomaly and he'll end up as yet another early college exit bust.

Finally, to answer your question about why none of the draftniks are tearing Sanchez apart, the anwer is simple-marketing and money. The NFL draft is a great marketing tool for the league, provides a lot of buzz and facetime for the draftniks and nobody is checking their results. Therefore, they're only there to pump up the hype on the players and collect a check in the process.

Ha, yeah dude, I'll cut you plenty of slack. No offense implied with my post. I am not saying I am better prepared to make this call than you, but that actually is my main point, how the heck can we call this?

So when you say he has signficant bust potential, am simply comparing what you say to the draft geeks like Mayock who for example implies the opposite of it, Kiper pretty much ditto -- he flat out said that experience isn't an issue in his opinion with Sanchez becuase he played in a pro style offense and is a very smart QB.

And to answer your point about they would do this anyway becuase it adds to the hype then if so why aren't they touting lets say Freeman? He has a lot of tools, I can see building some excitment behind him. They like him but most of them very quickly talk about his downside and some talk about his bust potential. And won't guys like Kiper look like a tool, if all they did was hype up players to bring excitment, don't they want to look like good prognasticators? I thought that's how they sell themselves.

But I'll even run with that point becuase I don't go mainly by the draft geeks when it comes to this. I got ex-Qb's like Simms and Dilfer really jazzed about Sanchez's potential. These guys aren't hyping Stafford the same way

It's nothing personal. I'll read the article from your link tonight, and appreciate the good debate. Its just tough for me to discount the opinions of ex-professional Qb's, the draft geeks, and probably Jim Zorn for a football web site that has a formula that am gathering just kills any QB without many college starts -- considering Sanchez's stats are pretty impressive.

Zorn for me is the key. Somehow I suspect he knows a thing or two about what makes QB's successful or not and isn't flying blind. I would assume with Zorn making the decision, he can increase the odds that they get this right.

I think you have a fair point there. Another concern I have is whether they have a plan if they get the guy they want. We have two young guys on our team already. Our current starter is solid and has shown flashes of great play, and the other has never taken a snap in a regular season NFL game. Our current starter is also going into his contract year. So you have a starter in his contract year and the $20 million shiny new guy and Colt. Let's say Campbell wins any competition and then plays at a lights out pro bowl level. Do you extend him? What then? Do you put Sanchez on the trading block? What if Campbell plays lights out

Good questions, I don't know, I'd assume someone in the FO who is getting paid to think about this stuff has a plan, but will see

[The Sisko]

No problem Skinsinparadise. Heck, as a result of your posts I ended up thinking a bit more of Sanchez than I had to this point. Even so, I just can't see giving up the farm to get him and I obviously still have major problems with our going into next season with StephJon Heyersen at RT.

Mercifully it won't be long until the speculation ends though.

[AAARedskin]

Dan Snyder wont be outbid again on a QB he covets.

You're probably right on.....what Schein isn't considering is this: Snyder will probably be willing to give up NEXT YEAR'S first round pick as well to get Sanchez into a Redskins jersey......we'll just have to see how all this pans out.

[Rocky52Mc]

You're probably right on.....what Schein isn't considering is this: Snyder will probably be willing to give up NEXT YEAR'S first round pick as well to get Sanchez into a Redskins jersey......we'll just have to see how all this pans out.

So...

Should we be giving Schein credit for somewhat respecting Dan and assuming he is some sort of a football minded person?

Or should we assume Schein is stupid for giving Daniel the chance?

[Passizle]

The offensive line is troubling but you know what... so is quarterback.

If you are Zorn and Cerrato and you think Sanchez will offer you a substantial upgrade over Campbell in the WCO, then you pick him. You figure you got your WCO receivers last year in Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. You've got your tight ends. And you have a few promising young guards on the team.

So you pick Sanchez and your man at Center this year, and then get the two young OT prospects you like best next year via the draft or FA.

Then you give Zorn at-least 4 years total to put it all together and you grab a half decent running back somewhere down the road and you've got yourself an offense. That is how it needs to be built, and that's only 3 off seasons by going through the draft.

Just about whatever we do, Campbell and Heyer/Jansen are going to be our starters next year anyway. So you might as well make the best long term pick.

My only concern is that we give Zorn enough time to get his people in place.

So in other words, we are rebuilding... again.

[mistertim]

You're probably right on.....what Schein isn't considering is this: Snyder will probably be willing to give up NEXT YEAR'S first round pick as well to get Sanchez into a Redskins jersey......we'll just have to see how all this pans out.

If we gave up next year's first round pick (or even more) to move up and get Sanchez I might literally throw my TV out the window. :doh::doh:

[fansince62]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9485204/Schein%27s-Nine:-Don%27t-blow-it-in-draft?MSNHPHMA

"4. Washington can't trade up for Mark Sanchez, but the Jets can

The hot rumor is Dan Snyder is smitten over the USC star. I like Sanchez a lot. He's smart, accurate and oozes leadership. But the Redskins don't have many picks and actually have a good quarterback in Jason Campbell. Don't you want to see what he can do in Year 2 in Jim Zorn's system?

If Sanchez falls to the Jags pick at No. 8, Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum should call Jacksonville and give up the 17th pick and his second rounder to get the quarterback who will thrive in his marketplace.

I like Kellen Clemens, but you can't compare the experience, talent and upside between Clemens and Campbell.

Sanchez works for the Jets, not for the Skins."

Sometimes it's just better to hear experts voice on the situation instead of an army of arm-chair QB's. Although I don't always agree with the man's picks on Sunday, he has a point. It's also note worthy that Sanchez was told by Snyder that he would have to beat out the competition at camp if he's drafted. Even if we do grab him, I doubt he starts for us, it's more smart if he actually sits. :logo:

Most of the time, the BEST advice you can ever receive, is from somebody who's not in your relationship.

JC is a good QB....but in what system?

[Gregpeck99]

For Snyder to tell Zorn look figure out how to do something with this guy that we are excited about and Zorn sucking it up and saying OK. Maybe. I am guessing otherwise.

You are totally correct. For whatever Zorn is ... he is no wimpy yes man. You can bet your bippy Jimmy Z. has a bone for MS.

[mistertim]

You are totally correct. For whatever Zorn is ... he is no wimpy yes man. You can bet your bippy Jimmy Z. has a bone for MS.

Oh come on. You know as well as I do that since he purchased the team Snyder hasn't really given anyone but Gibbs any real power or say in things.

[Gregpeck99]

JC is a good QB....but in what system?

Gibbs' two-yards-cloud'o'dust + punt system.

[jnhay]

I don't think the Redskins really want Sanchez. To do that they need to be 100% sure that Jason Campbell won't cut it, and their mixed signals make me think that they just don't know.

If Jason Campbell does really well next season, then what? His contract will be over, and resigning him would mean that they just wasted a bunch of money on Sanchez. This is all avoided if there's no cap, but why would they take that gamble?

[Gregpeck99]

Oh come on. You know as well as I do that since he purchased the team Snyder hasn't really given anyone but Gibbs any real power or say in things.

Don't be steryotypical Mistertim ... it makes you sound intolerant and unsophisiticated.

[Skinsinparadise]

Oh come on. You know as well as I do that since he purchased the team Snyder hasn't really given anyone but Gibbs any real power or say in things.

Zorn would have to be an extremely wimpy man IMO if they were doing this against his objections.

He is a long time QB, long time QB coach. He was hired I presume for his expertise with QB's, considering that was his whole background. He's worked with Campbell like crazy and knows him I'd bet better than anybody.

And with all of that, Snyder is telling Jimmy be quiet buddy, Campbell this and Campbell that, I don't want to hear any of it. I don't care if you think Sanchez has big bust potential we don't give a hoot what you think of QB play. Yeah we hired you because of it, but we've come to our senses, we now believe that we understand QB's better than you buddy.

Just using sarcasm to make a point. The major point here is Zorn IMO would have to have no spine to be run roughshod on this decision. It would be one thing if we are talking about a DT but QB?

If Snyder gives Zorn no heed on a QB decision, then IMO he is definitely out of here, wonder why they'd keep him around for another season, why not fire him now then? if Zorn doesn't know QB's what does he know?

[Gregpeck99]

I don't think the Redskins really want Sanchez. To do that they need to be 100% sure that Jason Campbell won't cut it, and their mixed signals make me think that they just don't know.

If Jason Campbell does really well next season, then what? His contract will be over, and resigning him would mean that they just wasted a bunch of money on Sanchez. This is all avoided if there's no cap, but why would they take that gamble?

Don't be rediculous ... they will "CasSELL" Campbell in a heartbeat.

[mistertim]

Don't be steryotypical Mistertim ... it makes you sound intolerant and unsophisiticated.

Sorry but Snyder stereotypes himself. I also find it amusing that so many Colt lovers and Campbell detractors used to say things about the real reason Colt isn't getting a shot is because of some conspiracy by Danny and Vinny who are telling Zorn who to put at QB. But now that it is the shiny new toy...they must be going 100% on his recommendations. :hysterical:

[RenegadeTK]

Good comment. Definitely agree about it making sense for the Jets, and not us.

[James Moss]

He's certainly no expert and there are members of this forum who study and know more than Schein does. I listened to Schein when he was with Riggo, but ever since he started doing that phony gravely voice shtick, I stopped listening. He's your typical unathletic talk radio guy who knows everything about the game except how to play it. Nice guy, though, and he has answered my emails.

[JDOZ84]

I hear you, I get the protection analogy of the roof but I took it as what's more important a QB or a RT? To me a QB isn't a fun/luxury pick and is much closer to being the be all and end all position than a RT.

Here's my take on the O line:

LT -- you got Chris Samuels, pro bowler? Needs to be replaced?

LG -- we have Dockery back, big bruising lineman, he should be at least all right

C -- Casey Rabach: Many say he's the most consistent lineman on the team. Personally am not in love with him but IMO he's at least all right

RG -- Randy Thomas, considered in the past the beast of the O line, played last season with a serious neck injury, still was an alternate pro-bowler

RT -- Jansen was OK in the beginning but fell apart in the 2nd half, Bugel imputed to him coming back from injury and he didn't have time to build stamina. Heyer looked to be so so at best.

RT looks to be the clear weakness. I wouldn't mind replacing Thomas and Rabach but I don't see why they desparetly need to do it now. And as for fixing that position, lets say they do trade for Sanchez, it really depends on what the deal is, if they keep their 3rd and lets say trade next years 1st. They have an opportunity to take a RT in the 3rd this year or in the 2nd next year.

Jansen in his hey day was good. He was a 2nd rounder. I don't think you need to find your RT in round 1. Finding an elite LT isn't easy but IMO finding a RT is far from mission impossible whether its this year or next. Plus next year you got FA, too.

What people fail to consider is the age of all of these individuals. Two things to worry about when you have older offensive lineman:

1. Their age and all of the wear and tear causes them to wear down later in their careers. So they start to miss more games and if they do play they are playing with injuries and arent nearly as effective when they are injured. This is true, look at Jonathan Ogden before he retired, look at Orlando Pace the past 2 years, look at Jansen and Thomas the past 3 years, and now its starting to happen to Chris Samuels.

2. Older offensive lineman are great at moving/plowing forward (in the running game) but are horrible going backwards in space (pass protecting). This is why when we were 6-2 in the first half of the season, Clinton Portis was the leading rusher in the NFL. When teams started putting the 8th man in the box and forced us to throw the ball down field, they had success pressuring Jason Campbell (sacked 38 times, and hurried many many many more times).

So you see we are old up front and that affects us in many ways when trying to have a balanced attack on offense. Our guys were either injured or playing horribly because once age starts to kick in, athleticism starts to dwindle away slowly. This is common sense, it happens to older players in basketball, tennis, baseball, hockey, boxing, and wrestling. Look at Hulk Hogan, LOL!Here is my assessment and rebuttals to Skinsinparadise assessments:

LT -- Chris Samuels, Age: 31 (32 when season starts), pro bowler? Needs to be replaced?

Yes, he's got another year (2 at most)of being able to handle LT duty. Speed rushers give him nightmares. How many times is Demarcus Ware is in our QB's when we play the Cowboys twice a year. He's great against power rushers but every speed rusher weve faced the last couple of years give him trouble so we need to find someone that can be the heir apparent to the Chris Samuels.

LG -- Derrick Dockery,Age 28 (29 when season starts), big bruising lineman, he should be at least all right.

This is the most stable position on our o-line. He is still in his prime and we can get at least 4 years of good play out of him.

C -- Casey Rabach, Age 31(32 when season starts) : any say he's the most consistent lineman on the team. Personally am not in love with him but IMO he's at least all right.

Agree, we can survive another season or 2 with him, but again he's old too, so we need to find someone that can be his heir apparent.

RG -- Randy Thomas, Age 33 (33 when season starts) considered in the past the beast of the O line, played last season with a serious neck injury, still was an alternate pro-bowler

He's too old too, but still productive enough to play this season but we definetly need to get a guard in this draft who can step in next year. I love him personnaly but I think he's on his last legs due to age and injuries so we need to find someone who is younger, more durable, and cheaper and can be his heir apparent.

RT -- Jansen, Age 33 (33 when season starts) was OK in the beginning but fell apart in the 2nd half, Bugel imputed to him coming back from injury and he didn't have time to build stamina. Heyer looked to be so so at best.

He's too old too period. He costs too much money, but he could be moved inside to cover up his pass protection problems, but he too is injury prone. He is excellent against power rushers (which is why, in his prime, he always did well against Strahan) and excellent in the running game, but, put this man in space without a chip blocker or TE help and our QB is doomed. We need to address this position asap, because we could live with all of the other guys for at least 1 more season, but we can't live with Jansen another year.

Also Stephon Heyer is a back up player period. Nothing more, nothing less.

I haven't even started on our defensive line either.......

[Skinsinparadise]

What people fail to consider is the age of all of these individuals. Two things to worry about when you have older offensive lineman:

I agree for the most part of what you are saying, and don't see it as a rebuttal to my post as you expressed. You are just making a different point. My point is right now this coming season what is the desparate position to fix, my point is RT is the position. Your point that way I understand it centers on making the line younger before its too late.

As to starting to build a younger line am with you. But you can't have everything all at the same time. And if I had to choose a franchise QB over waiting a year for example to groom Samuel's replacement -- I'd take the QB.

I'd love to have both but I can wait a year especially because its looking more and more like the top 4 OT's will be gone before 13.

[jnhay]

Don't be rediculous ... they will "CasSELL" Campbell in a heartbeat.

Sanchez sounded like they said he'd have to compete with Campbell for the starting job, but now reports are that the Redskins want to trade Campbell to get an extra pick to trade up with.

These stories sound inconsistent to me.