Koolblue13 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 This sounds promising... If you could please further explain what you mean by this. I have been debating with several people I know who are Enviro Sciences people and they all immedietly reject drilling. This could be an interesting argument to use against them, so please elaborate... It's going to be drilled somewhere, correct? We all live on the same planet. NIMBY is not a globally considerate slogan. We are the largest consumer. Drill it here, refine it here (in new "greener" refineries) and distribute it here. No shipping, we would have the cleanest refineries in the World I would think. You can reduce so many pollutants by doing it all here at home. Oil/ Gas sucks for the planet, but we aren't off it yet. Now, as certain members here like to remind us. The companies who are getting the leases to drill in these places pay a lot of money for that land. Use it to subsidize alt energy one way or another. Long term, short term solutions. Planet is happier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 How in your right mind, could a person claim to be an environmentalist and not want us to drill here and build new refineries.The short sightedness drives me crazy. Because I want us off of this non-renewable resource. Shortsightedness is thinking that our best energy investment is in plants to refine an ever dwindling fossil resource, rather than in renewable and truly domestic sources of energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 This has been a nice discussion, without a lot of cheap shots and silly slogans. Thank you. I wish I could continue it, but I have to get back to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The point of the cartoon was that the GOP is using the domestic oil drilling issue and attacking the Democrats for creating the crisis, and that the basic premise of the attack is false? Do you agree with this assertion? Yes, it's all politicking. Doesn't mean you and I have to play along. Is it excessively partisan to make this point, in light of the fact that many of the posters in this thread were repeating this falsehood? I would first have to agree with you that the third largest supply in the world being tapped aggressively for the first time would have no impact. Why is it laughable? I thought I explained pretty well why I think it would do nothing (except make my Exxon stock go up some more). World demand far exceeds concievable supply, no matter what drilling we do domestically. There has to be ways to have Exxon make money and the American people to not be taken advantage of, without crossing the line. And I know people who actually think that the Democrats' opposition to domestic drilling created this energy crisis. So what. "created" or perpetuated? I'm not happy the prices are high, per se. I just know that it isn't going to change unless we kick our oil addiction. Back to the same old. Ten years ago we could have had the same conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Because I want us off of this non-renewable resource.Shortsightedness is thinking that our best energy investment is in plants to refine an ever dwindling fossil resource, rather than in renewable and truly domestic sources of energy. Drill now to lower prices. Develop alternate enrgy at the same time. You aren't ever going to flip a switch and go from on oil to off it. It is going to be a gradual shift. Pumping our oil to increase supply will lower the price. It has worked in EVERY market, including big oil, in the past. Did the laws of supply and demand cease last year without anyone telling me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 Because I want us off of this non-renewable resource.Shortsightedness is thinking that our best energy investment is in plants to refine an ever dwindling fossil resource, rather than in renewable and truly domestic sources of energy. We can't turn off the spigot can we, not today. Without the oil coming in, we won't be able to in ten years either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 The idea that drilling for domestic oil is going to change a thing (or that NOT drilling domestically is the real reason for our current situation) is laughable, according to the economists. Oil is a global commodity, there is ever increasing demand around the world, and our domestic oil is minimal in comparison. Pinning high gas prices on environmentalist opposition to coastal oil drilling is a political stunt. It may be effective, especially with the more ignorant voters, but it is not at all accurate. Which economists claim increasing supply will not change a thing? Which economists claim the approx 20% (royalties) of the 700 billion we spend for foreign oil would not change a thing? You have Santa Barbara sitting there watching oil naturally seep out of the ground and refusing more drilling (that would likely stop it) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/170/3961/974 Natural Oil Seepage at Coal Oil Point, Santa Barbara, California Aerial, surface, and underwater investigations reveal that natural seeps off Coal Oil Point, California, introduce about 50 to 70 barrels (approximately 8,000 to 11,000 liters) of oil per day into the Santa Barbara Channel. The resulting slicks are several hundred meters wide and are of the order of 10-5 centimeters thick; tarry masses within these slicks frequently wash ashore. You want change?...push my plan you Californy nut http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Drill now to lower prices. Develop alternate enrgy at the same time. You aren't ever going to flip a switch and go from on oil to off it. It is going to be a gradual shift. Pumping our oil to increase supply will lower the price. It has worked in EVERY market, including big oil, in the past. Did the laws of supply and demand cease last year without anyone telling me? No, the laws of supply and demand did not cease. That is the problem. World demand is going up like gangbusters due to China, India and many other places. Billions of newly industrializing people are demanding ever more oil for thier own needs. That is not going to change. The amount of domestic supply the US can add to the world market is nothing compared to that ever increasing demand. Unless you nationalize the oil industry, the oil is going to go where the demand is. It isn't going to just stay here in the US and lower our prices if people on the other side of the world are willing to pay more for it. That is the sad reality. I know you don't trust me because I am a nefarous liberal, so ask a conservative that you trust who has really looked at this. Kilmer17 would be a good choice, but there are plenty of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 And for the 300th time, I'm not opposed to domestic oil drilling, not in the slightest. I am jsut aware of the negligible impact that it will have on a price that is set by a worldwide market that is ever rising in demand. Only the Saudis have enough oil to singlehandedly affect the price, and like we noted before - the Saudis are in it for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I know you don't trust me because I am a nefarous liberal, so ask a conservative that you trust who has really looked at this. Kilmer17 would be a good choice, but there are plenty of others. For what it is worth (I'm more conservative than others, but not as some), I agree. Us drilling for oil won't affect prices much. Oil is an inelastic commodity so essentially demand always far outstrips supply and us drilling won't change that. I will also note, unless there are SERIOUS changes, it won't be US drilling, but the OIL COMPANIES drilling. I've seen Kilmer say he is for it, BUT w/ a nationilization rule inserted (oil drilled here must be sold here w/ some price control). That might actually help, but I don't hear any of the drill now, drill here people advocating that. In addition, I basically support the idea that twa outlined in his link. I don't like the fact that it is going to take along time for much money to go to alt. energy and that how much will be controlled by the oil companies (i.e. how much alt. energy money we get depends on how much they take out of the ground). The general idea though would work for me and that is money made from the goverment from drilling is DIRECTLY linked to funding alt. energy implementation. I don't hear anybody of the drill now, drill here people talking about that either. If I had to guess which side is playing more political games w/ the energy prices, it is the GOP. They see this as an oppurtunity to get something they've wanted for years (drilling in ANWAR), and they are milking it for everything it is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Russia and Canada have been all over this. Russia even planted a flag (underwater). Those 2 will get the lion's share. The nation with the lion's share of wealth will get the lion's share of oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateCitySkin Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 wouldn't it make more sense to just produce more natural gas and electric cars... we disgustingly large amounts of that crap... provide these items to the consumers and let the infrastructure slowly switch over to electric from wind and solar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 wouldn't it make more sense to just produce more natural gas and electric cars... we disgustingly large amounts of that crap... provide these items to the consumers and let the infrastructure slowly switch over to electric from wind and solar. Great idea, but how do we get there? Why not have cheap oil being refined and delivered in a Eco friendly way(comparatively) until then. This is when the conversation usually hits a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 wouldn't it make more sense to just produce more natural gas and electric cars... we disgustingly large amounts of that crap... provide these items to the consumers and let the infrastructure slowly switch over to electric from wind and solar. Part of the 6 country expedition in the Arctic was they found a MASSIVE amount of Natural gas also. The United States will fix this problem in the next 8 years. Now that its the main focus of every citizen and we reached the crisis point. It's what we do. So lets say for the sake of argument the 50 states are OFF all fossil fuels for the cars and northern hemisphere in heating oil in 10 years. Would it KILL us to sell it to China and India etc for 10 more years and make 2 trillion dollars a year off of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I know you don't trust me because I am a nefarious liberal, so ask a conservative that you trust who has really looked at this. Kilmer17 would be a good choice, but there are plenty of others.Do you have me confused with someone else? I don't trust either nefarious sides! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 This is when the conversation usually hits a wall.The conversation always hits the wall when you try to explain to people (anti drillers) that we need a comprehensive energy platform that includes ALL options. They have been told by Al Gore that oil is bad and drilling ruins the environment, period. Plus they think that 20 years is a long time to invest in a solution, not understanding that 20 years will happen whether we drill or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 The conversation always hits the wall when you try to explain to people (anti drillers) that we need a comprehensive energy platform that includes ALL options. They have been told by Al Gore that oil is bad and drilling ruins the environment, period. Plus they think that 20 years is a long time to invest in a solution, not understanding that 20 years will happen whether we drill or not. True and oil and drilling ARE bad for the envo, but that doesn't change anything and that is where the problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 The conversation always hits the wall when you try to explain to people (anti drillers) that we need a comprehensive energy platform that includes ALL options. They have been told by Al Gore that oil is bad and drilling ruins the environment, period. Plus they think that 20 years is a long time to invest in a solution, not understanding that 20 years will happen whether we drill or not. Well, maybe they also remember the historical fact that the last time we all promised we were going to stop using oil, OPEC lowered their prices, a Republican got elected, and the very idea of even moving slightly towards any energy that didn't involve burning dead things got vetoed and ridiculed. Which, in turn, makes them less likely to fall for the same promise again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Well, maybe they also remember the historical fact that the last time we all promised we were going to stop using oil, OPEC lowered their prices, a Republican got elected, and the very idea of even moving slightly towards any energy that didn't involve burning dead things got vetoed and ridiculed. Which, in turn, makes them less likely to fall for the same promise again. I'd like to think that we have finally moved past that point, but I would bet good money that if gas went back to $1 a gallon, the majority would be pointing and laughing at solar panels again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Great idea, but how do we get there?Why not have cheap oil being refined and delivered in a Eco friendly way(comparatively) until then. This is when the conversation usually hits a wall. It's easy. We have oil. We can get oil. We have an infrastructure for oil. Oil is costing more and more each day. We need to find another energy source. We currently have a few. Natural gas, electric are the two I'm partial too. Plus, we know they work. Ethanol and hydrogen are there too, but I won't be using those fuels. Wind, solar and nuclear power on the grid in the same time the oil would be refined and pumped into our cars. Invest in putting this into the market and we start knocking out flocks of birds with one stone. We start helping the environment and add to energy independence without continuing down the same road we were on before, etc... Drilling is more of the same. Let's get some NG and electric vehicles out there instead. Instead of taking the time to set up drilling stations, lets make more solar and wind mills, start making some nuke plants. What's the difference in time? Not much. What's the difference in the long run, other worldly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 It's easy. We have oil. We can get oil. We have an infrastructure for oil. Oil is costing more and more each day. We need to find another energy source. We currently have a few. Natural gas, electric are the two I'm partial too. Plus, we know they work. Ethanol and hydrogen are there too, but I won't be using those fuels. Wind, solar and nuclear power on the grid in the same time the oil would be refined and pumped into our cars.Invest in putting this into the market and we start knocking out flocks of birds with one stone. We start helping the environment and add to energy independence without continuing down the same road we were on before, etc... Drilling is more of the same. Let's get some NG and electric vehicles out there instead. Instead of taking the time to set up drilling stations, lets make more solar and wind mills, start making some nuke plants. What's the difference in time? Not much. What's the difference in the long run, other worldly. I've been quite active in the Oil threads lately and you seem to have missed my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 START DRILLIN!!! Eff the Polar Bears!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I've been quite active in the Oil threads lately and you seem to have missed my take on it. I haven't been around for the last few weeks. <------- playing catch up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 It's easy. We have oil. We can get oil. We have an infrastructure for oil. Oil is costing more and more each day. We need to find another energy source. We currently have a few. Natural gas, electric are the two I'm partial too. Plus, we know they work. Ethanol and hydrogen are there too, but I won't be using those fuels. Wind, solar and nuclear power on the grid in the same time the oil would be refined and pumped into our cars.Invest in putting this into the market and we start knocking out flocks of birds with one stone. We start helping the environment and add to energy independence without continuing down the same road we were on before, etc... Drilling is more of the same. Let's get some NG and electric vehicles out there instead. Instead of taking the time to set up drilling stations, lets make more solar and wind mills, start making some nuke plants. What's the difference in time? Not much. What's the difference in the long run, other worldly. It is hard to get natural gas w/o drilling And yes we have large quantities of clean burning natural gas...off limits to drilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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