Adrian Peterson said the Skins were the toughest defense he faced

[elkabong82]

Because we have made so many horrible decisions over Snyder's time that this thing is just a wreck.

I will not be happy until we have a championship again, because anything else is a failure. I will not be happy until we are a perennial championship contender like we were in the past.

But I don't see us getting there with this mess of over-the-hill players, overpaid prima donnas, and me-first players. We need to get back to basics. Build young and fundamentally solid. Get a good foundation going and only bring in team-oriented players. Once you get a good base, then you can add some flash.

But we are just so infected with Snyder's failures that we need to wash the slate clean.

That's not true at all. I like the old Redskins players. I like some of the guys we have now. I like Samuels, Cooley, Fletcher, Blades, Sellers, Betts, Wilson and a whole lot more. What I don't care for is a certain kind of players that Snyder has brought to this team. I hate the Brandon Lloyds. I hate that we offered to firsts for that POS Chad Johnson. I hate that we have players who think it is ok to skip practices or are hungover. I get sick to my stomach when I saw players "strutting" during timeouts to stadium music when we were losing on the scoreboard. I want players who care more about winning then themselves or looking cool or respect. I want team players who have one goal in mind: championship. Because that's all I want. Anything else is a failure.

I haven't been banned, thank you very much.

I do want a total rebuild. What I don't like is going to Zorn and Blache and not rebuilding but still trying to sell it to me that we are going to win now (despite the fact the coaching staff is worse off). Rebuild requires rebuilding the whole team. If we wanted to win now, we should have stayed with AS and GW.

I'd love to have a coach come in here and clean house. Get rid of the high salaries. Get rid of the me-first players. Keep the team-oriented, blue collar, lunch pail kind of players that made the Redskins so great in the past.

What's so crazy is I actually agree with you 100% on certain things, and then wildly disagree with you on others. I think the problem is, when it comes to Snyder and the FO, your tone comes off as very irate, and sometimes you display an arrogance of "i'm always right" to be rivaled only by MSF. I think flexibility in opinion would serve you well. And I'm just tryin' to talk here, not start a fight or anything.

For example, I agree with your methods on team building. I think those are the best parameters for building a success. However, where we differ is that I won't dismiss someone if they don't follow it exactly. Teams show each year there is no set way to win in the NFL.

I don't see a bunch of over the hill players. In years past it may have been correct, given Gibbs' philosophies (and he's won with over the hill vets in the past), but for the most part we have youth and have been slowly phasing out the older players the past couple years. I don't really see any primadonnas either. CP could be argued, but he is a character guy, and a team leader. I happen top think players a team can rally around and win behind are ideal.

I would love for us to be perrenial contenders like we were in Gibbs 1.0. All of us would. However, just because the team hasn't gotten there yet doesn't mean they aren't on the footsteps. 2 playoff appearances in 3 years is a good start. Not great, but good. But remember, Gibbs came from almost out of nowhere, and took a talented roster to the top. How do we know we don't have the same thing with Zorn? He too is coming from a good offensive system, inhereting a talented roster (though you and I obviously differ on the level of talent). The biggest gripe I think most had with Gibbs is we weren't aggressive enough. I think with Zorn and the WCO we get that aggressiveness on O. On D, Blache's D in Chicago was known as aggressive and attacking (it's why LBers like Colvin had double-digit sacks there).

I understand reasons to doubt, but at the same time there are reasons to hope. I think both need to be considered.

I understand the types of players you like, and I obviously like those players too. However, sadly in today's NFL those players aren't in great abundance. One thing we can credit Gibbs for is at least striving to bring in the character guys who put the game above themselves. However, the malcontents such as Lloyd, well we don't actually know who exactly was responsible for those players. We know Dan made the mistake early on of trying to "win now" by bringing in Sanders and others, which made me pissed off. However, since bringing in Gibbs and giving him full control, I have noticed changes in Snyder. We have been a more patient team, but I think the lesson Snyder didn't learn until he put Cerrato in charge was that you can't pander to every need your coaches have. I think that was why we had the FA debacle in '06 (though half those guys have panned out, ARE is a true quality person, on and off the field). I don't think that Snyder can be faulted for every single bad FA we have brought in, as we don't know the exact structure of things over the years. I can just as easily fault all the coaches, as Snyder gave each of them complete control. Neither of us knows either way. It's the blame game, which is uninformed, that tends to rub people the wrong way, as it has me at times.

I thought you were banned before for going over board. If you say you weren't, I'll take you at your word on it.

To me it just seems that having opinions motivated by the desire for something to happen that won't (Snyder leaving in this case) is fruitless, and will get you nowhere. It's seems to me it is much better to be focused on the "now" and learn from the mistakes of the past. I thi nk the team is learning this philosophy. As far as the Chad stuff goes. For all any of us know it was just posturing to prevent our rivals from going after him. For all we know, the conditions which would have made it 2 1sts is that we make the Supwrbowl, which would better explain why Cincy turned it down. Heck, maybe Cincy knew the offer was just a bluff, cuz realistically who would have turned down that offer? It's all hypothetical, and shouldn't be dwelled on as truth, IMO.

I guess our philosophies differ and are similar at different parts, and I know we will never agree on certain things. I just think more realistic expectations would be better served as legitimate opinion. Anyways, we are way off topic now. So if you never had a problem with GW and AS, then I'll back off. From your post history though, it's pretty easy to conclude that you weren't a fan of theirs until they left. But whatever, I'll drop it. Just try to actually consider the advice I have laid down here, as it could help you have seemingly more legitimate and less bias-driven opinions. If you don't care about that stuff, then simply ignore me and go about your day. All I can say is come game day you better root for the Skins. If not then we have no need to speak to each other further, and we can just put each other on ignore. Cheers.

[Morneblade]

I'm talking about how our rush D has been one of the best 3 of the last 4 years under Blache, and the players he has developed. C'mon man, at least address what I say, instead of thinking I didn't say it. You honestly think there wasn't anything good from Blache? You follow this team too, so you know there was some good things from Blache, ignoring them and only focusing on negatives doesn't make you right.

We've had a good rush defense, true. And I think it's very important to stop the run. But what it comes down to is I dont like a "passive defence", one that reads and then reacts to a play. One that plays it safe and will alow you to eat up yards because we're playing off the ball to prevent the big play. That was pretty much Blache at Chicago.

And seeing as most write-ups of Balche's tenure in Chicago describe his D as aggressive and attacking, and seeing as Skins players attributed our aggressiveness and attacking last season to Blache, I'm going to believe those people over someone who will only look at the bad side of Blache, instead of at the whole picture.

I'd take that with a grain of salt. You know how accurate most reports are about us, for instance. The Bears caused alot of fumbles as a team and therefore had had some pretty good turnover number. However they were poor in sacks (actually they hold the record for least sacks in a season under Blache) and low INT totals. And they were always in the bottom 3rd of the league as far as passing defense goes.

And....

We were NOT aggressive last year. We were very very passive. Did we blitz? No. You want aggressive, looks at GW's first year. Corner blitzes, Saftey blitzes, people coming from everywhere. Last year, nothing. Sitting back in coverage with a big cushion. Four man rush, playing the run first. This is not aggressive, it's passive.

I never said what Blache did in Chicago wasn't relevant, which is why I posted how the Bears D ranked then. I simply said you tend to focus solely on that part of Blache's tenure, instead of his overall tenure in the NFL.

I look at his full career as well. The reason I look at his tenure in Chicago is because of the fact they had the same job discription. You really cant get a feel for a guy on how he might run a defense when he is a position coach. So I look at his stay in Chicago.

[Hiro]

For those who don't believe that the players will be intense under Blatche ...

Montgomery was punished physically, having to take nearly all of the scout repetitions in practice. Mentally? "There was a lot of verbal abuse," he said. "It kind of got me down, but I just fought through it." Greg Blache, the defensive line coach, was the main culprit, but assistant head coach-defense "Gregg Williams would sprinkle his seasoning in there sometimes," he said.

"Coach Blache told him, 'Before it's over, you'll be my [expletive],' " said Shirley Montgomery, Tony's mother. "I would be upset when I would hear about it and want to give him a piece of my mind. But I know there's a reason for it. It's like a boot camp. When all is said and done, [blache] taught him great discipline."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201142_2.html?sid=ST2007092201467

Blatche knows how to motivate players, and is able to do so in a way without alienating them. As much as I respect Williams as a defensive coordinator, and it seems that the players respected him too, Williams often made it a habit to have players, who gotten on his bad side, stay on his bad side.

I love how he plans on letting the scheme be in more in the players' hands, because with our veteran squadron we have that luxary. If our squad was young, then I'd be alittle concerned. But this is pretty much a veteran defense with youth injected into various places, which means that leaving it in the players' hands can be more beneficial.

[Morneblade]

Actually, you're wrong, just like a lot of sports media people who referred to Williams as DC over the past few years. The team always defined Blache as the defensive coordinator and Williams as AHC - Defense, as I said before. I forgive your misguided arrogance, though.

As far as I can remember, he was listed as the defensive line coach. As for Assistant Head Coaches, Buges was one, Saunders was one, Williams was one. But it's also pretty obvious that even though they had different titles, Buges was the offenseive line, Saunders OC and Williams DC.

The point is, nobody here really knows anything about the inner workings of the team. Nobody knows what Williams's and Blache's responsibilities really were, and nobody knows what Blache's job is now, except for members of the organization.

I think we have a pretty decent idea.

I choose to believe that Blache can be just as good a defensive coordinator as he was in Chicago, and that was pretty good. So I'm not expecting a big dropoff in performance this year.

I hope he's alot better. Most of his defenses were not that good.

Is it supposed to encourage me that the best he could do was 14th in the NFL?

No kidding. That is an "off year" here.

This is the one area of our D I actually expect Blache to improve. GW's schemes were not the best at creating turnovers. It sounds like Blache's defenses were much more successful in that regard.

I'm not expecting much of a difference. We havent been getting many fumble recoveries since Blache has been coaching the DL, why would it all of a sudden change now? And Blaches teams were never high in INT's.

[honeydont]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:

[Hiro]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:

GW got all the press on our sidelines mostly, but whenever they've shown Blatche, he'd be shouting and getting in players' faces to hype them up. Anyone who was able to psychologically toughen up a sweet big kid from Ohio into the tough-as-nails mauler known as Anthony Montgomery gives me the impression that he'll do just fine at keeping our defense hyped.

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:

Are you applauding your own post?

Did you ever see Gibbs go stark raving mad on the sidelines? Rarely. And the man won 3 SuperBowls. So I wouldn't say that screaming and foaming at the mouth is a definite sign of genius or ability. Otherwise any rabid animal could coach a football team.

We could always hire:

[Gart Monk]

:whoknows:and GW isn't the the coach because why?

[scruffylookin]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards

2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards

2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)

2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards

2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.

Thank You for pointing this out. People throw out how "successful" Greg Blache was in Chicago. Fact is, he wasn't. I just hope he learned a thing or two from Williams.

To tell the truth (and I know he's not ready yet) but my hope for the Redskins defense in the future is Kirk Olivadotti. He's been on the staff since 2000 and most impressively is that he's survived all the turnover and been hired by every one of our defensive coordinators. Add to that Gregg Williams' rave about the guy's preparation and attention to detail and that makes me look forward to the day when we can turn the defense over to him.

[Pedro]

Amusing to say the least.

If there is a drop off from Williams to Blache that is based on history then Williams could not still be our DC under any guise.

The ONLY way Williams would still be running our D is if he were HC. As he flat out sucked as a HC he won't EVER get that chance again, here or anywhere else.

So you see, all things being equal the Williams/Blache discussion is a moot point.

Must suck to live in a world devoid of a second chance....

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards

2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards

2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)

Actually, I'm seeing that Blache's pass defense in 2001 was ranked 29th in yards, not 31st...and that they gave up the least amount of passing TDs of any defense in the league (12).

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I don't think Williams will ever get a shot again at HC. I think he missed his chance to get another HC position when he didn't leave after our 2005 campaign, when he was at the top of the list. Snyder dupped him into staying with a promise or whatever.

Our D, better be still at the top without Williams, I guess we will find out.

[Morneblade]

Actually, I'm seeing that Blache's pass defense in 2001 was ranked 29th in yards, not 31st...and that they gave up the least amount of passing TDs of any defense in the league (12).

29th in yards, 31st in attemps. Sorry for the confusion there.

Also they were 1st in scoring defense overall with 24 total TD's given up.

[blueskin]

I wish we could stop all this arguing about GW vs. Blache. I initially wanted GW too, but having thought about it, I feel the ultimate hiring of Zorn was a better move. As for the defence, yes, GW was special. But he gave us fits (20 yard CB cushions, anyone?). Plus he was arrogant as heck. He did run Arrington out of here, for example.

The bottom line, though, is this: GW's gone to Jacksonville, Blache is here NOW. Lets support Blache (if he sucks, we get someone else- end of story). Otherwise, if you GW-partisans can't get over his leaving, then kindly follow him and Prioleau to J'ville.

GW is NOT bigger than the Washington Redskins.

[NewAgeSkins]

GW is NOT bigger than the Washington Redskins.

Of course he is. He's bigger than football itself.

/greggggg's ego

[mcarey032]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.

Yes while he might have had some intensity, this was the same guy who had carlos rogers and springs playing 10 yard cushions. Yes he could do some great things, but he could also do things with the defense that would mistify me as well. I don't know how well we will do overall. There is no guarantee from either side that we will be able to replicate what we did last year. I don't know which year it is, but the last few years the wild card team that made it the last year typically doesn't make it the next year. I hope that we are able to beat that trend. I know that the Giants did it, but I would like to see us be more consistent in our post season exploits.

[elkabong82]

We've had a good rush defense, true. And I think it's very important to stop the run. But what it comes down to is I dont like a "passive defence", one that reads and then reacts to a play. One that plays it safe and will alow you to eat up yards because we're playing off the ball to prevent the big play. That was pretty much Blache at Chicago.

I'd take that with a grain of salt. You know how accurate most reports are about us, for instance. The Bears caused alot of fumbles as a team and therefore had had some pretty good turnover number. However they were poor in sacks (actually they hold the record for least sacks in a season under Blache) and low INT totals. And they were always in the bottom 3rd of the league as far as passing defense goes.

And....

We were NOT aggressive last year. We were very very passive. Did we blitz? No. You want aggressive, looks at GW's first year. Corner blitzes, Saftey blitzes, people coming from everywhere. Last year, nothing. Sitting back in coverage with a big cushion. Four man rush, playing the run first. This is not aggressive, it's passive.

I look at his full career as well. The reason I look at his tenure in Chicago is because of the fact they had the same job discription. You really cant get a feel for a guy on how he might run a defense when he is a position coach. So I look at his stay in Chicago.

What are you basing this passive D thing off of? It's a misperception. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread, and others, that the media and players (like Urlacher) described Blache's D as aggressive and attacking. Like I already said, I'll take their word over yours. Besides, you care to explain how Colvin, a LBer, puts up double-digit sacks in a 4-3 D 2 years in a row in a "passive" system?

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D. Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive. Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache. Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

[skinnyles]

What I'm looking for this year is less internal MESS. You guys have got to remember all the finger pointing and arguing on the defensive side of the ball. I wondered how the hell the players could stay focused and motivated with all the praise the COACHES were heaping on themselves. This year GB is going to let the animals out of their cages .... it will start to show up in the pre-season...and we can forget about GW and his BS attitude. HTTR

[Vicious]

So he coached the same D line that when we needed to win a game and get into the playoffs they held the other team to a single yard of rushing? He coached that D line? And you're worried?

[elkabong82]

So he coached the same D line that when we needed to win a game and get into the playoffs they held the other team to a single yard of rushing? He coached that D line? And you're worried?

Good point. He also coached the DL that was 9th in the NFL in sacks, with Wynn and Daniels as his DEs.

[fansince62]

What are you basing this passive D thing off of? It's a misperception. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread, and others, that the media and players (like Urlacher) described Blache's D as aggressive and attacking. Like I already said, I'll take their word over yours. Besides, you care to explain how Colvin, a LBer, puts up double-digit sacks in a 4-3 D 2 years in a row in a "passive" system?

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D. Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive. Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache. Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

speaking of haters..... :laugh:

[Morneblade]

Good point. He also coached the DL that was 9th in the NFL in sacks, with Wynn and Daniels as his DEs.

What line was this?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What line was this?

I'm guessing he's meaning the 2004 season, when the Skins' D was 9th overall in total sacks.

[Morneblade]

I'm guessing he's meaning the 2004 season, when the Skins' D was 9th overall in total sacks.

I thought that too, but I saw the line only had 12.5 sacks for the year. Springs was actually tied for the team lead wtih 6 that year. Most of our sacks came from LB's and the secondary, but GW was bringing the kitchen sink then.

[Morneblade]

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D.

Williams was not known for that kind of defense in Buffalo or Tennessee or his first 2 years in Washington. And from many Blache supporters have said, Blache was doing alot of the playcalling last year.But hey, what do I know?

Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive.

Willaims and gone and Blache is here. The dirty laundry on Blache wont come out until he is not a coach here. I will say that when the blitzing wasnt getting there early, it disapperaed quickly and for the rest of the season. How much of that was Blache and how much was Williams I could not tell you.

Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache.

See the part about Blache calling the majoity of the plays, as reported by Blache supporters.

Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

1. I would have been happy with it, but I wasnt on his jock. Personally I like the Zorn move (but no exactly HOW it happened) and I've been a Zorn fan since his playing days. Overall a offensive-minded coach that is very good at developing QB's I think was the best move for the club, IMO.

2. You could say that, but you wouldnt know for sure. But let me make my problems with Blache crystal clear, if I can.

I dont think "motivation" will be a problem, as others think it might. I have no doubt Blach can get people playing hard.

I dont think Blache "sucks" as a DC. I think he has a certian way of playing defense, and I dont like it. Blache has said a couple things (not what players have said or wikipedia, what HE has said);

He doesnt care about sacks, and he plays a scheme that is read and react.

I am firmly in the other boat. I care alot about sacks, pressure and everything they do to an offense and I prefer an attacking defense that dictates, rather than is dictated to.

So, there in a nutshell is why I'm not a fan of his. I dont think he is terrible. While his defense talent wise wasnt as bad as people like to think it was (and at the same time out Defense is not as talented as alot of people think we are) but they had crappy offenses that didnt help them out much. What I dont like is his defensive philosophy.