Adrian Peterson said the Skins were the toughest defense he faced

[ArmchairRedskin]

We have a lot of talent on defense. I don't see any reason to believe that if they stay healthy at least for the most part that we wouldn't have a good shot at keeping near the top ten. When you have a guy like London Fletcher on the field making calls it makes the coordinator's job a whole lot easier. Blache just has to keep on keepin' on. Maybe he'll actually do some adjusting during gametime so we can avoid embarrassing blowouts like the Giants game of a few year ago and the Patriots game last year.

[ncr2h]

For some perspective, here's how the Bears defense stacked up during Blache's tenure according to footballoutsiders.com:

Year Bears Skins

1999 2.4% (23) 2.5% (24)

2000 4.7% (21) -9.0% (10)

2001 -14.8% (6) -12.2% (10)

2002 4.5% (21) -6.1% (8)

2003 0.4% (18) 10.3% (27)

Avg. -0.56% -2.9%

I compared them to the Redskins defenses since we are all a lot more familiar with our own defense than with the Chicago defense during that time period. It seems to me that Blache's defense, by most statistical measures, were consistently below average, with one outstanding performance.

[JustAfan47]

^^^^^.....true true

[JustAfan47]

For some perspective, here's how the Bears defense stacked up during Blache's tenure according to footballoutsiders.com:

Year Bears Skins

1999 2.4% (23) 2.5% (24)

2000 4.7% (21) -9.0% (10)

2001 -14.8% (6) -12.2% (10)

2002 4.5% (21) -6.1% (8)

2003 0.4% (18) 10.3% (27)

Avg. -0.56% -2.9%

I compared them to the Redskins defenses since we are all a lot more familiar with our own defense than with the Chicago defense during that time period. It seems to me that Blache's defense, by most statistical measures, were consistently below average, with one outstanding performance.

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:

[[[ghost]]]

Ditto. Blache isnt the coordnator that Williams was and I think we're gonna see that.

I know Williams was known for his schemes, but I have to say that it seemed as if his charisma and character are what made this defense.

[ArmchairRedskin]

No, I'm sure Blache will be the exact same coordinator he was in 2003 despite the fact that we have a bunch more talent on the field and despite the fact that this same unit was top ten just last year. I doubt Blache picked up anything from GW these last four years. How could he? His 2003 stats say he's gonna suck.

[skinsince72]

I was nervous as hell for the Minny game. Wasn't it a must win game? The D looked great and I think that game sent a message to the playoff bound teams. I have some pukes fans that came right out and said they did not want to see the Skins in the second round. Little did they know they should have been cheering for the Skins during the Seatlle game.

[JustAfan47]

No, I'm sure Blache will be the exact same coordinator he was in 2003 despite the fact that we have a bunch more talent on the field and despite the fact that this same unit was top ten just last year. I doubt Blache picked up anything from GW these last four years. How could he? His 2003 stats say he's gonna suck.

R u being sarcastic or r you trying to make a point?

[ncr2h]

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)

Roosevelt Colvin in his prime

Brian Urlacher in his prime

Mike Brown in his prime

Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th

2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th

2001 - 4th

2002 - 2nd, 4th

2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.

*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)

[mrdoctor]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

those guys are a buncha dopes

they get paid to hate on us

[ncr2h]

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:

As a reply to your second point about Anthony Montgomery:

First of all, when you wrote the abreviation "AM" I had to think for a minute about whom you were talking about. That's a testament to Montgomery's impact in the league thus far.

Let's talk about Walt Harris, who has spent 5 of his 12 seasons on defenses coached by Blache. In those five seasons, he racked up 7 interceptions. In his 7 seasons away from Blache, he racked up 25 interceptions. Great improvement.

Tony Parrish got 7 interceptions in his 3 years under Blache. In his next season, away from Blache, he picked off 7 passes. The next year, 9. The next year, 4.

I'm not saying Blache sucks. But it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him as evidence that Blache is on the same level as Williams. Look at Sean Taylor. Look at Marcus Washington, Lamar Marshall, Antonio Pierce.

The fact is we lost one of the best coordinators in the league. I would really love to see Blache surpass what Williams did here, but unfortunately there's not much other than blind optimism to support that hope. The facts don't stack up in his favor.

[JustAfan47]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)

Roosevelt Colvin in his prime

Brian Urlacher in his prime

Mike Brown in his prime

Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th

2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th

2001 - 4th

2002 - 2nd, 4th

2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.

*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)

wow...just really wow...i'll give you BU and RC...lol has walt really even come close to those type of numbers since that season? :doh: ....so what that they spent most picks on D so what.....that does not mean that they get the talent they want fool!.....LL full of talent. LF proven talent. MW proven talent. AC full of talent. CR full of talent. SS proven talent. RMc full of talent.

all of those players had better years then b4 cause of there talent beside LF, and MW do to missing games!...

[JimmyConway]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)

Roosevelt Colvin in his prime

Brian Urlacher in his prime

Mike Brown in his prime

Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

You're right. The players you mentioned weren't bad but they were never that great either other than Urlacher.

Their team D that year was truly something to admire. 5 players with 2 or more interceptions. 6 players with more than 3 sacks. You can't doubt that Blache was getting the most out of his players. Why can't he do the same here with guys like Fletcher, Landry, and Carter to work with?

[elkabong82]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)

Roosevelt Colvin in his prime

Brian Urlacher in his prime

Mike Brown in his prime

Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th

2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th

2001 - 4th

2002 - 2nd, 4th

2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.

*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)

Mentioning a few good players doesn't negate the point. Why don't you try listing the entire starters, instead of hand picking a couple good ones?

BTW, it must be a shoddy talent level if you have to tout Colvin and Harris as star players "in their prime." The most INTs Harris had with the Bears was 5, and his INT production didn't have a huge drop off under Blache cuz there wasn't much to drop off, yet you imply there was.

Colvin had his best years in Chicago, putting up double-digit sacks in 2001 and 2002, so much for the Blache hates sacks theory others were claiming. A LBer with double-digit sacks would imply an aggressive attacking-style D, like I and others have said. Anyways, Colvin hasn't done much until recently with the Pats, and I'd take any one of our LBers over him. The fact Balche got so much out of Colvin, and the Pats haven't even ben able to duplicate the production (though they've come close once) is more of a testament to Blache.

Care to mention Blache had McQuarters, Holdman, and Brown, who while in their primes, have never been much more than "mid-level" players?

The lack of talent argument is coming from who was on their roster from 99 to 03. Why don't we see who they drafted on D (rd 1-4), instead of just acting like cuz they spent high picks on D it means they had great talent. Bears haven't exactly had the best FO in terms of drafting.

99- Russel Davis, Colvin, Holdman

00- Urlacher, Mike Brown, Reggie Austin

01- Karon Riley

02- Roe Williams, Alex Brown

03- Michael Haynes, Charles Tillman, Lance Briggs, Todd Johnson, Ian Scott

00 and 03 were the best D drafts while Blache was there, and both those years the D improved from the previous year.

For all the moaning about the yards Blache's D gave up, why is there no mention ofhis best D in 2001, being 1st in the NFL in points allowed (12.7)? Who cares about yards when your D isn't allowing opponents to score? Do you realize if we had a D that only allowed 12-13 points a game we'd go 13-3 and win the division every year?

2001 was Blache's best D, so let's look at that starting roster. If it isn't as good as the talent we have now, then the other D talent levels aren't likely better.

RE: Phillip Daniels

DT: Keith Traylor

DT: Ted Washington

LE: Brian Robinson

OLB: Warrick Holdman

MLB: Brian Urlacher

OLB: Colvin

CB: RW McQuarters

CB: Walt Harris

CB: Jerry Azumah

FS: Mike Brown

SS: Tony Parrish

Even Chicago's best D under Blache only had 1, maybe 2 standouts. Chicago also didn't have the good depth this current team has.

Since Blache has been in DC, the rush D has been top 5 in 2 of his 4 years here. Blache has developed several players on the DL (Monty, Gholston, Carter) and even was able to put the team at 9th in sacks with Daniels and Wynn as his DEs.

I've already said I understand doubts now that GW is gone, why can't you guys like you and Mornenblade look at both sides of the fence, instead of just harping on solely negative aspects of Balche's D from over 5 years ago? Some of you guys wanted GW as our head coach, but if I applied your method of thinking to that situation, then I too could only focus on the negatives of GW as head coach with Buffalo, and conclude he'd be terrible as HC here, eventhough it isn't necessarily the case.

[elkabong82]

As a reply to your second point about Anthony Montgomery:

First of all, when you wrote the abreviation "AM" I had to think for a minute about whom you were talking about. That's a testament to Montgomery's impact in the league thus far.

Let's talk about Walt Harris, who has spent 5 of his 12 seasons on defenses coached by Blache. In those five seasons, he racked up 7 interceptions. In his 7 seasons away from Blache, he racked up 25 interceptions. Great improvement.

Tony Parrish got 7 interceptions in his 3 years under Blache. In his next season, away from Blache, he picked off 7 passes. The next year, 9. The next year, 4.

I'm not saying Blache sucks. But it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him as evidence that Blache is on the same level as Williams. Look at Sean Taylor. Look at Marcus Washington, Lamar Marshall, Antonio Pierce.

The fact is we lost one of the best coordinators in the league. I would really love to see Blache surpass what Williams did here, but unfortunately there's not much other than blind optimism to support that hope. The facts don't stack up in his favor.

So because you didn't register AM as Monty right away, it means he is no good? Wow. Great basis for judgement. :doh: Nevermind the fact he was a 5th rounder who Balche has developed into a starter.

You say it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him, yet you've been given more than one player. I'd say it is stupid to look at on or two good players under Blache and act like the entire D had a good talent level, and I'd also say it is stupid to cherry pick stats, and only use INTs as your measure of success for Blache.

[JustAfan47]

So because you didn't register AM as Monty right away, it means he is no good? Wow. Great basis for judgement. :doh: Nevermind the fact he was a 5th rounder who Balche has developed into a starter.

You say it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him, yet you've been given more than one player. I'd say it is stupid to look at on or two good players under Blache and act like the entire D had a good talent level, and I'd also say it is stupid to cherry pick stats, and only use INTs as your measure of success for Blache.

Amen to you elkabong82...i thought that i was going to have to do this debate by myself..

[SnyderMustGo]

I always have to cry a little inside every time I hear someone try to tell me that these guys we now have were really successful and should do great.

If Blache was a great defensive coordinator, he wouldn't have lost his job and taken a demotion to a position coach.

How long was Greg Williams on the market once he left? That's what happens to great defensive coordinators.

How long was Al Saunders on the market once he left?

How long did Zorn languish as a position coach with no promotion?

Are we really morons enough to think that somehow every other team in the league passed on these guys and somehow we were lucky enough to have these amazing coordinators just hiding there waiting for their opportunity to dominate with the Skins?

If you cannot concede that it is a large step down from Williams and Blache, then you'll justify anything through burgandy-tinted glasses.

[elkabong82]

I always have to cry a little inside every time I hear someone try to tell me that these guys we now have were really successful and should do great.

If Blache was a great defensive coordinator, he wouldn't have lost his job and taken a demotion to a position coach.

How long was Greg Williams on the market once he left? That's what happens to great defensive coordinators.

How long was Al Saunders on the market once he left?

How long did Zorn languish as a position coach with no promotion?

Are we really morons enough to think that somehow every other team in the league passed on these guys and somehow we were lucky enough to have these amazing coordinators just hiding there waiting for their opportunity to dominate with the Skins?

If you cannot concede that it is a large step down from Williams and Blache, then you'll justify anything through burgandy-tinted glasses.

:laugh: By your logic, Belichick is a terrible head coach because the Brown s let him go. I mean, if he was so great the Browns would have never let him walk, right?

Now you're high on Saunders and Wiliams since they've left? Gee, when they were here all you did was run them into the ground with the rest of the team. But now that they've left in your mind they are great coordinators again. What a hypocrite/troll. Your antics are tired and petty.

[SnyderMustGo]

Now you're high on Saunders and Wiliams since they've left? Gee, when they were here all you did was run them into the ground with the rest of the team. But now that they've left in your mind they are great coordinators again. What a hypocrite/troll. Your antics are tired and petty.

You just fabricated this. Find anywhere where I ran Saunders and Williams into the ground or shut your mouth.

Saunders and Willaims are good coaches who immediately got another position.

No team in the league expressed interest as a OC for Zorn in the last decade (much less a head coach). Blache had some Rooney Rule interviews, but he has not been considered to be a sought after DC. The guy he is replacing is such a guru and so sought after that he had a job within a month.

Yes or no, elkabong: is Blache a step back from Gregg Williams?

[elkabong82]

You just fabricated this. Find anywhere where I ran Saunders and Williams into the ground or shut your mouth.

Saunders and Willaims are good coaches who immediately got another position.

No team in the league expressed interest as a OC for Zorn in the last decade (much less a head coach). Blache had some Rooney Rule interviews, but he has not been considered to be a sought after DC. The guy he is replacing is such a guru and so sought after that he had a job within a month.

Yes or no, elkabong: is Blache a step back from Gregg Williams?

I don't know if Blache is a step back, I have to see how our D does with him at the helm. However, I have already said in this thread I understand concerns about drop off given GW is a great D-coord.

Why'd you ignore my comment about Belichick?

And you constantly throw this team under the bus, so why wouldn't I think you've done the same to GW and AS? But I will go digging through your long post counts of incessant bashing. But if/when I do find such things, what will you say then? Or will you simply "shut your mouth?" BTW, I'm sure you weren't so high on GW after '06, maybe I'll start there.

[fnkdctr(007)]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

WE might but it might still be top 10 and ou offense and special teams might make up the difference. :eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[robotfire]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC

That's debatable. He did have the number one defense in one of those years, but the rest were pretty lackluster. He does get turnovers out of his guys, though. Also, Blache has more talent to work with here than he did in Chicago.

The only fear I have is whether our defense will remain disciplined like they were under Williams. Also, they might not be as creative.

[SnyderMustGo]

Why'd you ignore my comment about Belichick?

Because it's a stupid non-point. Because things happened one way on one occasion does not mean they happen that way on every occasion. The vast majority of times, when a guy loses a position as a coordinator and goes to a position coach, they do not come back and be stud coordinators.

Ron Rivera was far more successful as DC in Chicago than Blache, and when he lost his job in Chicago, the best he could get was a linebacker coaching position in San Diego. But by your logic, it is a certainty that Rivera will be a great DC once Cottrell retires or gets run out of town once his moronic owner screws him over in a coaching search.

[elkabong82]

Because it's a stupid non-point. Because things happened one way on one occasion does not mean they happen that way on every occasion. The vast majority of times, when a guy loses a position as a coordinator and goes to a position coach, they do not come back and be stud coordinators.

Ron Rivera was far more successful as DC in Chicago than Blache, and when he lost his job in Chicago, the best he could get was a linebacker coaching position in San Diego. But by your logic, it is a certainty that Rivera will be a great DC once Cottrell retires or gets run out of town once his moronic owner screws him over in a coaching search.

OH, it's a non-point because it doesn't vibe with what you said, Got it.

You claimed Zorn and Blache aren't good, or whatever, because nobody else wanted them or signed them. I gave you an example of a coach not doing well, then moving on and doing very well. But somehow only your warped view of things is right?

BTW, if you really weren't so down on Saunders and GW (and I can't go back any further in your post history than December 2007 so I can't dig up your trashing them directly) then why do you constantly trash the team and it's players? Why are you such a big fan of a complete and total rebuild?

Looking at your post history, which is despressing as hell and makes me wonder why you even bother being here) it's obvious you only became a fan of GW and AS once they had left and Zorn and Blache took over. It gave you an opportunity to do the thing that all your pother posts do, which is bash the team. You get to say they are both downgrades (though you conveniently ignore that neither has coached a down for the Skins yet) and trash the team.

In fact, going through your posts, all you are capable of is vehement animosity towards the team and most of the players. Your thoughts and opinions on the Skins, from your post history, is based solely on your hatred of Snyder and the FO, and apparently stems from when we fired Marty. I saw that mentioned more than anything else. You can't separate bias from fact, and you can't even be respectful when you are criticizing. No wonder you've been banned from here before.

So, if you really were high on AS and GW before, I seriously doubt you would have been such a proponent of a total rebuild. But that is your schtick because you can't get past your hatred of Snyder (so much so your name on here is dedicated to it). Hate on anything and everything Redskins, with the exception of Chris Cooley. I saw you are a big fan of his at least. Of course that should also show just how negative, cynical, and biased your post history is, where one player compliment sticks out like a sore thumb.

Why'd you ignore all but one sentence of my response to you? Is it because, unlike you, I can admit things are true, even if they don't go exactly with my opinion? I admitted concerns about drop off from GW to Blache are legitimate, eventhough I myself think there won't be much of a drop off, if any. You, on the other hand, can't even admit to the possibilioty the team might be better off with more aggressive coaches calling the shots on O and D.

[SnyderMustGo]

Why are you such a big fan of a complete and total rebuild?

Because we have made so many horrible decisions over Snyder's time that this thing is just a wreck.

I will not be happy until we have a championship again, because anything else is a failure. I will not be happy until we are a perennial championship contender like we were in the past.

But I don't see us getting there with this mess of over-the-hill players, overpaid prima donnas, and me-first players. We need to get back to basics. Build young and fundamentally solid. Get a good foundation going and only bring in team-oriented players. Once you get a good base, then you can add some flash.

But we are just so infected with Snyder's failures that we need to wash the slate clean.

In fact, going through your posts, all you are capable of is vehement animosity towards the team and most of the players.

That's not true at all. I like the old Redskins players. I like some of the guys we have now. I like Samuels, Cooley, Fletcher, Blades, Sellers, Betts, Wilson and a whole lot more. What I don't care for is a certain kind of players that Snyder has brought to this team. I hate the Brandon Lloyds. I hate that we offered to firsts for that POS Chad Johnson. I hate that we have players who think it is ok to skip practices or are hungover. I get sick to my stomach when I saw players "strutting" during timeouts to stadium music when we were losing on the scoreboard. I want players who care more about winning then themselves or looking cool or respect. I want team players who have one goal in mind: championship. Because that's all I want. Anything else is a failure.

No wonder you've been banned from here before.

I haven't been banned, thank you very much.

So, if you really were high on AS and GW before, I seriously doubt you would have been such a proponent of a total rebuild..

I do want a total rebuild. What I don't like is going to Zorn and Blache and not rebuilding but still trying to sell it to me that we are going to win now (despite the fact the coaching staff is worse off). Rebuild requires rebuilding the whole team. If we wanted to win now, we should have stayed with AS and GW.

I'd love to have a coach come in here and clean house. Get rid of the high salaries. Get rid of the me-first players. Keep the team-oriented, blue collar, lunch pail kind of players that made the Redskins so great in the past.