Antidepressants

[Larry]

They definitely work for the people that have clinical depression from brain chemistry issues.

They definitely do not work for the people who are just depressed because their lives stink and they are too lazy to do anything about it. Frankly, they SHOULD be depressed.

Yeah, I've wondered for a while if the "side effects include suicide" is because the drug treats the patient's lethargy, which causes the patient to suddenly notice that "Hey! I'm a loser."

If maybe, the lethargy was the reason the guy didn't kill himself ten years ago, and the drug gives him the energy to actually act on an urge that he always had.

Just a theory. Based on really not much knowledge. (But since when did Tailgate require knowledge before posting?)

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Anti-depressants.....they're bad. The pharmaceutical industry is killing people with these things and they know it. I've had 3 friends get on and off various antidepressants such as Zoloft, Xanax, Effexor etc etc and they only got worse and more unhealthy as time went on. Not only did they look worse, but all these drugs aren't good for a person's liver. All 3 friends have since gotten off of ALL anti-depressants and are doing MUCH better than they were before or during the drugs.

Tom Cruise is that you?

BTW, Xanax isn't an anti-depressant.

And these drugs do help correct imbalances. Hell, I got my dog on clomicalm (ocd medicine) and its done wonders to correct his messed up little doggy brain. And before you jump on me for this I'm a better dog owner than most people in America. He gets tons of exercise, structure and discipline. His noggins just ****ed up.

[Predicto]

Yeah, I've wondered for a while if the "side effects include suicide" is because the drug treats the patient's lethargy, which causes the patient to suddenly notice that "Hey! I'm a loser."

The side effects also "include suicide" because sometimes the drugs don't help that much, and the person remains depressed, and commits suicide. But that doesn't stop the grieving family from blaming the drug rather than their beloved Father, and filing a lawsuit.

Hence the disclaimers.

If maybe, the lethargy was the reason the guy didn't kill himself ten years ago, and the drug gives him the energy to actually act on an urge that he always had.

Just a theory. Based on really not much knowledge. (But since when did Tailgate require knowledge before posting?)

I have too much knowledge in this area. My family has a history of clinical depression. And that unfortunately includes me.

[Larry]

The side effects also "include suicide" because sometimes the drugs don't help that much, and the person remains depressed, and commits suicide. But that doesn't stop the grieving family from blaming the drug rather than their beloved Father, and filing a lawsuit.

Hence the disclaimers.

Uh, I was under the impression that to be listed as a side effect, the trial group who took the drug have to exhibit a higher rate of the side effect than the control group.

[Predicto]

Uh, I was under the impression that to be listed as a side effect, the trial group who took the drug have to exhibit a higher rate of the side effect than the control group.

I'm not sure that there is any such "rule."

It also depends on how you define the control group. There is no question that people on antidepressants are more likely to commit suicide than the average American.

I'm pretty sure there is no "control group" available of people who are clinically depressed but not diagnosed or treated, but I am pretty sure that such people commit suicide even more than any other group.

[Drop]

Chocolate City Skin my bad, i didn't mean Xanax....although the doctor had one of my friends on that too. I actually meant Paxil....and now that i think about it, Lexapro was another one that one friend was one at one time. And no, i'm not a scientologist...i just know bullsh*t when i see it and what these anti-depressants do to people's lives.

and Predicto, needles too say, i don't care if you agree or not. Anti-depressants never did one positive thing for any of the people i knew who were prescribed them. And today, one of my friends has liver issues from all of the anti-depressants they had him on.....and now that he's OFF of the meds, he tells me that he feels like he hasn't felt in years. His mind isn't numb anymore, he enjoys sensations, he feels emotion and isn't as distant as he was when he was "depressed" and on medicine. AND he weaned himself off at his own pace. I don't give a sh*t if you think it's dangerous.....it was the best thing for him that he ever could have done to get his life back in order.

The sh*t is bad folks. Let the doctors and the pharmaceutical industry fool you if you wish.....but i'm telling you from experience with people who have spent years on some of these drugs....they're no good. Typically, if they don't help you out within a year or so....they're just changing your chemical balances and creating a dependecy as opposed to doing you any real good.

This is all my opinion from personal experiences. so if you're depressed and you love your drugs.....yippy, good for you. I've seen how these drugs can turn someone into a shell of themself and begin a neverending cycle of unhappyness. So to those of you who support anti-depressants, just remember, there's two sides to every coin and what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for EVERYONE.

[gbear]

Drop,

Espousing beliefs like yours are both good and bad. On one hand, maybe it keeps the person who doesn't really need the drug from taking it (good as they probably are over prescribed). The bad comes from and for people like me...people with real issues that may someday need the drugs. I'd hate to have a prospective employer ask me about my MS, hear that I'm on ADs and just think of your position: "people taking ADs must just be emotionally unstable. He must be a weak person." Seriously, you make it harder for those of us who do need or may need them and benefit from them. Sorry, but I want ADs in my bag of tricks to fight all the sympoms of this MonSter.

[Drop]

like i said, if you take them and you're happy with them and they help you.....more power to you and good luck in your struggle.

but they're not for everyone. and i don't just think that anyone on anti-depressants is weak minded or emotionally unable to adapt to life.....i just think that they ought to SERIOUSLY consider what they may be doing to their body with drugs that are meant to help a problem that doctors can't firmly get a grip on.

anti-depressants to me, are like patch work. they cover up a hole here, they cover up a hole here.....but the underlying problem may be much bigger, and may become MUCH more of a problem over time due to just "patching up" particular parts instead of delving in, diagnosing, and correcting the REAL problem.

[TheKurp]

I was diagnosed with mild to moderate depression back in November. It was recommended that I start taking anti-depressants. I resisted, not because I don't believe that SSRIs can be effective in treating the disease, but because I wanted to avoid the side-effects if at all possible. Instead, I negotiated a three-week trial of taking St. Johns Wort, and if at the end of three weeks there was no improvement then it was agreed that I would switch to a pharmaceutical drug.

It is very hard to describe to someone who has never suffered from depression what it feels like. Those who haven't experienced it personally think it's just a period of feeling bad and that in time you'll eventually snap out of it. So I came up with an analogy that only someone who has experimented with recreational drugs might understand.

It's like trying to describe what a good roll of 'X' is like to someone who has never done it. You'll say to them that it gives you this warm euphoric feeling and you feel a connection with people you've never felt before. They might respond by telling you they can identify with that feeling and have been esctatically happy in their lives without ever having taken the drug. Until you've done 'X' you'll never know what the feeling is like. It's the same with depression. I don't care how sad you've been at some point in your life, you don't know depression until it hits. Sadness is a feeling. Depression is a disease.

Believe me, I would take an anti-depressant in a heartbeat to get relief from depression. The feeling is that bad.

Anyway, call it the placebo effect or whatever, I began to slowly emerge from that "black hole" called depression a little over two weeks after starting on St. Johns Wort. I've been taking it ever since religiously. Well, almost religiously. There was a period a couple of months ago when the depression suddenly came back one afternoon. It kept me up that night and into the next day. It then dawned on me that I had been forgetting to take the dosage at night before going to bed. I might have missed two or three days. The recommended dosage is 300mg, 3 x day. Anyway, once I started again 3 x day the depression lifted.

A couple of words about St. Johns Wort. One, it is not FDA regulated (as opposed to Europe where it can only be obtained via prescription) so buyer beware. I paid a subscription to ConsumerLabs.org to get a list of manufacturers who passed testing and were certified by the Lab to contain standardized amounts of Hypericin. Two, while studies have shown St. Johns Wort to be as effective as SSRIs for mild to some moderate forms of depression, the results for treating severe depression were not so good. So like SSRIs, it may or may not provide help for a particular individual.

[Drop]

interesting read Kurp, thanks for sharing. i like your train of thought to be able to try an alternative before sucumbing to the grasp of pharmaceutical anti-depressants. i hope things keep going well for you.

[Jumbo]

Personally, I urge real caution when seeking wisdom in any "general topics" internet forum about serious emotional and medical needs. Not referring to personal stories of experience with medications (which I respect and accept as offered) but most off-the-cuff opinions I read in such threads strongly reinforce that leaning.

Going through a sixth medication change can be unusual, and I would be concerned, too, but given the anecdotal and incomplete nature of the info there's no way of making an informed comment about it (or even knowing if that report is accurate)--i.e. over what period of time, which specific meds are involved, what extenuating circumstances, or if dosage and not type is being counted as a change, or if another med mainly to assist sleep (like trazadone) is added to one for anxiety/depression (like paxil) etc.

In general, neurotransmitter interactions are much more complicated and varied than what filters down into general media articles about dopamine and serotonin. SSRI's are just one group of psychotropic meds and often require fine-tuning. Many mental health professionals do feel that over-prescribing has been a problem, and this is discussed in numerous professional journals and major organizational seminars, but it is also very true that these medications help literally millions of people who report much better long-term outcomes with proper usage and proper supporting activity than going without them. This holds true for treatment of a variety of mental health diagnoses.

Most experienced professionals also recommend trying all common sense alternatives for mood regulation, depending on reported level of severity, before trying medication, or at least check lifestyle and personal habits to see if any such efforts have been made or are likely to be made. Serious depression can obviously erode desire to do the things that would help, creating, as with anxiety and it's physcial components, a recursive loop of psyhcobiological problems.

The best suggestion I can make if it is ever about you--talk to a credentialed and experienced professional (ask about background and go to two if possible) and read REAL research books like used recent grad-school texts for instance, more than mainstream publications, if you want to gain real education on the matter. Don't just deal with a MD or family practioner in seeking advice. See a psychiatrist and add a PhD level or at least well-experienced masters degree-level psychotherapist to your quest for input, if at all possible.

And be very guarded about letting anecdotal reports and lay opinions influence you very much. Insist your professional is able to answer your questions within reason, and take your time exploring all alternatives and understanding what regime (nutrition, exercise, psychotherapy) will best support any psychopharmaceutical intervention.

Medication is just one tool to use in working on a problem that hasn't been manageable by other methods, and it can be a very helpful and powerful one, but take it seriously and plan on supporting it with other kinds of working on behaviors, thinking, and feelings.

[DGreenistheBest]

I heard they are making an "all you can eat" antidepressant seating section in the Raiders' stadium.

[The 12th Commandment]

Drop, you're missing the point. St. John's wort, just because it is naturally ocurring, is not necessarily any safer than the pharmacuticals. Almost every pharmacutical has its roots in a naturally ocurring compound. i.e. you risk unknown side effects with it too. The important part is that depression is not just a get over it type of thing. It's a serious problem and people need all the options available to see what works for them. Each of our brains is different enough that some exprimentation is necessary and that's where gbears 'bag of tricks' comes in. You want to have access to as many different alternatives as possible in the hopes you can find one with minimal side effects and maximum relief.

[Thiebear]

based on the Happiness thread: why bother.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

I heard they are making an "all you can eat" antidepressant seating section in the Raiders' stadium.

ehehehehehe

[TheKurp]

Drop, you're missing the point. St. John's wort, just because it is naturally ocurring, is not necessarily any safer than the pharmacuticals. Almost every pharmacutical has its roots in a naturally ocurring compound. i.e. you risk unknown side effects with it too. The important part is that depression is not just a get over it type of thing. It's a serious problem and people need all the options available to see what works for them. Each of our brains is different enough that some exprimentation is necessary and that's where gbears 'bag of tricks' comes in. You want to have access to as many different alternatives as possible in the hopes you can find one with minimal side effects and maximum relief.

I don't know that it's accurate to say that St. Johns Wort has unknown side effects. It's probably the most studied herb out there. The cynic in me believes it has been so widely studied because the pharmaceutical companies would love to discredit it based on its wide spread use - especially in Europe.

However, you are correct in noting that it doesn't come without its own set of risks. From http://nccam.nih.gov/health/stjohnswort/sjwataglance.htm

Side Effects and Risks

The most common side effects of St. John's wort include dry mouth, dizziness, diarrhea, nausea, increased sensitivity to sunlight, and fatigue.

Research has shown that taking St. John's wort can limit the effectiveness of some prescription medicines, including:

Antidepressant medicines

Birth control pills

Cyclosporine, a medicine that helps prevent the body from rejecting transplanted organs

Digoxin, a medicine used to strengthen heart muscle contractions

Indinavir and other medicines used to control HIV infection

Irinotecan and other anticancer medicines

Warfarin and related medicines used to thin the blood (known as anticoagulants)

When combined with certain antidepressants, St. John's wort also may increase side effects such as nausea, anxiety, headache, and confusion.

Top

Herbal Products: Issues To Consider

Herbal products such as St. John's wort are classified as dietary supplements by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The FDA's requirements for testing and obtaining approval to sell dietary supplements are different from its requirements for drugs. Unlike drugs, herbal products can be sold without requiring studies on dosage, safety, or effectiveness.

The strength and quality of herbal products are often unpredictable. Products can differ in content not only from brand to brand, but from batch to batch. Information on labels may be misleading or inaccurate.

In addition, "natural" does not necessarily mean "safe." Many natural substances can have harmful effects–especially if they are taken in large quantities or if they interact with other supplements or with prescription medicines.

Tell your health care providers about any complementary and alternative practices you use. Give them a full picture of what you do to manage your health. This will help ensure coordinated and safe care.

[Drop]

Drop, you're missing the point. St. John's wort, just because it is naturally ocurring, is not necessarily any safer than the pharmacuticals. Almost every pharmacutical has its roots in a naturally ocurring compound. i.e. you risk unknown side effects with it too. The important part is that depression is not just a get over it type of thing. It's a serious problem and people need all the options available to see what works for them. Each of our brains is different enough that some exprimentation is necessary and that's where gbears 'bag of tricks' comes in. You want to have access to as many different alternatives as possible in the hopes you can find one with minimal side effects and maximum relief.

Ok, i'll agree with most of that.....but at the same time, i've never known anyone who has become addicted to, had a damaged liver as a result of, or suffered seizures after getting off of St. John's Wort.

as for the point....i get the point quite clearly. you guys aren't telling me anything i don't know already. Like i've said, i've seen more success with people who are depressed AFTER they've gotten off of the various AD medicines than i have seen while these same people were on the medication. Nothing is going to change what i believe after i've seen it with my own two eyes in MULTIPLE cases.

i'm not telling anyone to stop taking their AD medication. i'm just saying....i've seen the darker side of what that sh*t can do. believe me or don't believe me....i'm not gonna lose any sleep either way.

[skinsjunkie2]

They definitely work for the people that have clinical depression from brain chemistry issues.

They definitely do not work for the people who are just depressed because their lives stink and they are too lazy to do anything about it. Frankly, they SHOULD be depressed.

There is a huge difference between those two things.

But you are forgetting about situational depression such as divorce, or a child dying before a parent etc. That is just as serious as clinical depression, but thankfully it is only temporary. But temporary could mean a year or more, which is more than "my life sucks and I'm too lazy to do anything about it", which I agree there are people who fall under that category too.

I have never in my life been a depressed person and never understood why depressed people couldn't just snap out of it....that is until I spent the last year severely depressed. When the situation I was in went into emergency/crisis mode it was then that I finally went to the doctor. He prescribed me an anti-anxiety medication to help with the new situation and when that allowed me to deal with things without completely falling apart I went back for a refill. He said if you forsee things being very difficult for say the next year in your situation, then we need to try an AD because the anti-anxiety pills are very additive. I fought going on the AD for a while after because I just never wanted to start that whole cycle. I finally tried one (lexapro) and it really helped in the beginning, but then things around me got even worse and now I feel the same as before the AD.

I think I'll just go back to taking nothing soon because I am definately not interested in trying new ones and adjusting etc. etc.

[Johnny Punani]

Anti-depressants.....they're bad. The pharmaceutical industry is killing people with these things and they know it. I've had 3 friends get on and off various antidepressants such as Zoloft, Xanax, Effexor etc etc and they only got worse and more unhealthy as time went on. Not only did they look worse, but all these drugs aren't good for a person's liver. All 3 friends have since gotten off of ALL anti-depressants and are doing MUCH better than they were before or during the drugs.

Xenu is that you?!?!?!?!

:laugh:

[One Shot]

I was diagnosed with mild to moderate depression back in November. It was recommended that I start taking anti-depressants. I resisted, not because I don't believe that SSRIs can be effective in treating the disease, but because I wanted to avoid the side-effects if at all possible. Instead, I negotiated a three-week trial of taking St. Johns Wort, and if at the end of three weeks there was no improvement then it was agreed that I would switch to a pharmaceutical drug.

It is very hard to describe to someone who has never suffered from depression what it feels like. Those who haven't experienced it personally think it's just a period of feeling bad and that in time you'll eventually snap out of it. So I came up with an analogy that only someone who has experimented with recreational drugs might understand.

It's like trying to describe what a good roll of 'X' is like to someone who has never done it. You'll say to them that it gives you this warm euphoric feeling and you feel a connection with people you've never felt before. They might respond by telling you they can identify with that feeling and have been esctatically happy in their lives without ever having taken the drug. Until you've done 'X' you'll never know what the feeling is like. It's the same with depression. I don't care how sad you've been at some point in your life, you don't know depression until it hits. Sadness is a feeling. Depression is a disease.

Believe me, I would take an anti-depressant in a heartbeat to get relief from depression. The feeling is that bad.

Anyway, call it the placebo effect or whatever, I began to slowly emerge from that "black hole" called depression a little over two weeks after starting on St. Johns Wort. I've been taking it ever since religiously. Well, almost religiously. There was a period a couple of months ago when the depression suddenly came back one afternoon. It kept me up that night and into the next day. It then dawned on me that I had been forgetting to take the dosage at night before going to bed. I might have missed two or three days. The recommended dosage is 300mg, 3 x day. Anyway, once I started again 3 x day the depression lifted.

A couple of words about St. Johns Wort. One, it is not FDA regulated (as opposed to Europe where it can only be obtained via prescription) so buyer beware. I paid a subscription to ConsumerLabs.org to get a list of manufacturers who passed testing and were certified by the Lab to contain standardized amounts of Hypericin. Two, while studies have shown St. Johns Wort to be as effective as SSRIs for mild to some moderate forms of depression, the results for treating severe depression were not so good. So like SSRIs, it may or may not provide help for a particular individual.

damn, people underestimate depression. Good luck man

[Drop]

Xenu is that you?!?!?!?!

:laugh:

No it's your mom!! if only i could crack jokes as lame as you.