Advice for a nice guy: Update need more advice

[chomerics]

Wait wait wait. You had a TWELVE year relationship and that didn't turn onto a marriage because? It sounds to me that you either refuse to give you heart to someone or just afraid of marriage.

Because of different circumstances in life that came up and the marriage was always being put off. We were married for all intents and purposes, but never had the piece of paper which stated as such.

I won't ask how or why the twelve year deal ended, but that sort of tells me that your VAST WEALTH of experience has done nothing for you and the fact that you are still single is by your own design.

do a search on this forum, i posted here when I broke up with her, and asked others for advise as to which way to go.

It just seems to me that anyone that is scared of marriage and REAL long term commitment shouldn't be offering advice on women and relationships.

Dude, marriage is a piece of paper that is worthless to a lot of people, look at the divorce rate for example. I was in a 12 year relationship, and that is a LOT longer then a lot of marriages. Just because I was never married doesn't mean I was afraid of commitment, it was because I knew deep down that I didn't want to marry the woman. It also told me that I was always focused on things outside of the relationship, instead of the relationship itself, something I have learned and changed.

[chomerics]

There's another thing I'm going to add to this, not sure if I mentioned it previously or not. She had a few tattoos when we got married, and I was fine with them. Recently she has gotten several more, knowing that I didn't want her to get them. At first she'd state they she figured I didn't care, yet knew I'd be mad that she got them. Then she'd say, if you truly love me, it shouldn't matter, it's just ink. However yesterday she went and got 2 more. After all of this, she's decided to further do something I don't like, and said she did it because I had been telling her I'm proceeding with the divorce.

Well, you can't play both sides of the fence. You can't tell her you are getting a divorce and there is no way back, then expect her to do what you want her to. If you have already resigned yourself to not taking her back, then do so, don't lolly gag around, and drag this out because it will get worse. If you want to go the route of counseling, you should do so and put a stop to her wanton behavior. The choice is yours to make, but the more you push it off, the less of a chance you will have of making things work. . .if you even want to. IMO, her getting a tattoo was an ultimatum of sorts. She is telling you that you either need to :pooh: or get off the pot and make a decision.

[rdsknbill]

Dude, marriage is a piece of paper that is worthless to a lot of people, look at the divorce rate for example. I was in a 12 year relationship, and that is a LOT longer then a lot of marriages. Just because I was never married doesn't mean I was afraid of commitment, it was because I knew deep down that I didn't want to marry the woman. It also told me that I was always focused on things outside of the relationship, instead of the relationship itself, something I have learned and changed.

Marriage is NOT just a piece of paper and I am sorry that it is "worthless" to alot of people. That is the biggest problem with society today is the mindset that marriages are disposable.

Marriage is work. For anyone that says that it shouldn't be is probably divorced by now. I've been married for close to twenty years now. Has it been smooth the whole way. Absolutely not, but we never brought up divorce or even separation. We worked it out before it got to the point of infidelity or worse.

Your hang ups are just that ... YOUR hang ups.

Nice to see that you are working on them

[chomerics]

Marriage is NOT just a piece of paper and I am sorry that it is "worthless" to alot of people. That is the biggest problem with society today is the mindset that marriages are disposable.

Your making my point there bill

[rdsknbill]

Your making my point there bill

OH CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yuu mean we are on the same page?????????????? :doh: I HATE THAT :laugh:

[BKSkinsFan]

Well, you can't play both sides of the fence. You can't tell her you are getting a divorce and there is no way back, then expect her to do what you want her to. If you have already resigned yourself to not taking her back, then do so, don't lolly gag around, and drag this out because it will get worse. If you want to go the route of counseling, you should do so and put a stop to her wanton behavior. The choice is yours to make, but the more you push it off, the less of a chance you will have of making things work. . .if you even want to. IMO, her getting a tattoo was an ultimatum of sorts. She is telling you that you either need to :pooh: or get off the pot and make a decision.

I can't make an honest decision right now, and neither can she. So I'm not sure why she felt the need to get those, but it's just another slap in the face for me, and possibly is showing that she is proving by her actions she can't handle being married. Who knows, I'm hoping she's off the meds soon and we can begin moving forward with our true desires.

[TheKurp]

Dude, first things first, get her off the meds to find out how she truly feels. Give it time, and continue to talk to her. She sounds rational, and understanding, as well as remorseful, but she needs to be away from the drugs to see how she truly feels.

Chom, you've overstepped your bounds here. Without knowing why she was prescribed the antidepressants in the first place, you are in no position to advise that she get off them. Only a healthcare professional should be making those recommendations (for getting off or staying on) and one should NEVER EVER suddenly stop taking anti-depressant medication.

And to suggest that one needs to be off anti-depressants to know their true feelings reveals a total lack of knowledge in the field of psychotherapy.

FWIW, no, I've never been on anti-depressants. However, having dated someone who has, I spent a great deal of time researching it.

[rdsknbill]

Chom, you've overstepped your bounds here. Without knowing why she was prescribed the antidepressants in the first place, you are in no position to advise that she get off them. Only a healthcare professional should be making those recommendations (for getting off or staying on) and one should NEVER EVER suddenly stop taking anti-depressant medication.

And to suggest that one needs to be off anti-depressants to know their true feelings reveals a total lack of knowledge in the field of psychotherapy.

FWIW, no, I've never been on anti-depressants. However, having dated someone who has, I spent a great deal of time researching it.

Kurp. I very good friend of mine's wife just stopped taking her medication and just went nuts. She just lost all rationale. They are now divorced after putting him through hell for 10 months.

[Bang]

Your making my point there bill

it would make your point if this marriage was on the rocks because he snores or leaves the toilet seat up or she burns dinner every night.

But it's not. The issues here are serious stuff, and deciding that the marriage is broken in a case like this is not viewing it as disposable. It is not a light thing that can be compromised over.

Five times with two people... this is not something that will go away no matter how much counseling there is. It won't be forgotten, and in my mind, anyone that would forgive such transgressions of the deepest of vows is only lying to themselves.

Oh, one more thing. BK...as hard as this is to hear... go get a checkup, and don't forget the HIV test.

~Bang

[TheKurp]

Kurp. I very good friend of mine's wife just stopped taking her medication and just went nuts. She just lost all rationale. They are now divorced after putting him through hell for 10 months.

I don't think it's any small coincidence that Steven Kazmierczak had suddenly stopped taking Prozac in the days leading up to his killing spree at NIU.

[chomerics]

Chom, you've overstepped your bounds here. Without knowing why she was prescribed the antidepressants in the first place, you are in no position to advise that she get off them. Only a healthcare professional should be making those recommendations (for getting off or staying on) and one should NEVER EVER suddenly stop taking anti-depressant medication.

And to suggest that one needs to be off anti-depressants to know their true feelings reveals a total lack of knowledge in the field of psychotherapy.

FWIW, no, I've never been on anti-depressants. However, having dated someone who has, I spent a great deal of time researching it.

Dude, I watched my sister jump out of a second story window on antidepressants. I was on Prozac and I KNOW what I felt when I was on it. I felt like there was not a care in the world, and I could have watched my mother get shot and not been upset. I was in a car accident and a therapist prescribed them to me because he thought I was depressed because of a car accident. I lost the ability to think rationally about my actions, and I ended up taking myself off of them.

Serotonin enhancers screw with your rationale and reasoning ability, and the mimic your true feelings. Do they work for some people? Yep they do, do they work for all people? Nope, there are some HORROR stories about serotonin drugs and people. . .especially people who do not need to be on them in the first place. I have done my research and my reading, I encourage you to do the same, these drugs, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil,

I would never take one, and I will tell everyone else who is on them that there is a select set of the population who will behave completely nutz when they are on the drugs.

You also can't just STOP taking the drugs, you need to be weened off them. If you do just quit cold turkey, because your brain will suddenly have the need for serotonin, and not enough will be there thus throwing someone into a depression.

[chomerics]

Kurp. I very good friend of mine's wife just stopped taking her medication and just went nuts. She just lost all rationale. They are now divorced after putting him through hell for 10 months.

You can't stop taking the drugs cold turkey, it will screw you up something fierce. . .seriously do some research on prozac paxil and zoloft. Peoples behavior can be bizarre and dangerous to say the least when on these drugs. . .

[chomerics]

I can't make an honest decision right now, and neither can she. So I'm not sure why she felt the need to get those, but it's just another slap in the face for me, and possibly is showing that she is proving by her actions she can't handle being married. Who knows, I'm hoping she's off the meds soon and we can begin moving forward with our true desires.

Just make sure she is weened off the meds then give it time for her to come to grips with the situation. The drugs eff you up, seriously do some research on them.

[TheKurp]

Dude, I watched my sister jump out of a second story window on antidepressants. I was on Prozac and I KNOW what I felt when I was on it. I felt like there was not a care in the world, and I could have watched my mother get shot and not been upset. I was in a car accident and a therapist prescribed them to me because he thought I was depressed because of a car accident. I lost the ability to think rationally about my actions, and I ended up taking myself off of them.

Serotonin enhancers screw with your rationale and reasoning ability, and the mimic your true feelings. Do they work for some people? Yep they do, do they work for all people? Nope, there are some HORROR stories about serotonin drugs and people. . .especially people who do not need to be on them in the first place. I have done my research and my reading, I encourage you to do the same, these drugs, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil,

I would never take one, and I will tell everyone else who is on them that there is a select set of the population who will behave completely nutz when they are on the drugs.

You also can't just STOP taking the drugs, you need to be weened off them. If you do just quit cold turkey, because your brain will suddenly have the need for serotonin, and not enough will be there thus throwing someone into a depression.

I stand by my comment. You are in no position, regardless of your own experience, to suggest to anyone that they stop taking anti-depressants. To do so is irresponsible and is akin to Lucy setting up shop in her backyard with a sign that reads "Psychiatrist Is In".

Seriously, your credibility on this issue is shot when you start dispensing medical advice with absolutely no credentials other than your own experience taking anti-depressants. You're trivializing the complexity of the brain and minimalizing mental health disorders.

[DeanCollins]

I can't make an honest decision right now, and neither can she. So I'm not sure why she felt the need to get those, but it's just another slap in the face for me, and possibly is showing that she is proving by her actions she can't handle being married. Who knows, I'm hoping she's off the meds soon and we can begin moving forward with our true desires.

BK, I was moved by the additional info about her being on all those meds and thought maybe she deserves a second chance based on her ablility to reason etc... But after reading about the tatoos, that's just insanity on or off the meds, especially the part about knowing that you wouldn't like them. She's trying to drive you away and probably for your benefit. Don't go wanting something that you can't have. If she's going around the bend then she's emotionally unavailable anyway.

Even if you decided to try the counsoling route, If it were me, I'd want a full confession, admission of 100% responsibility, and appology for the infidelities.

If she can't come clean and admit that what she did was wrong and all her doing (take that **** back about it being your fault) then you don't have much to work with here anyway.

I had joint custody of my son from 2yo to 13yo and did wednesday nights and weekends until he turned 13yo and then he moved in with me and my 2nd (current wife). We had a great time, I took him on all of our vacations. He's 21 now and is in his 3rd year of college (at UCF Kurp), a great young man that I'm very proud of. He doesn't remember his mother and I ever being together, so there is no stigma attatched. But If I'd have indecisively floundered around for a couple more years he would have been affected.

Like I said before, life after divorce is good. I had a ton of fun dating for the 5 years in between wives and wife #2 is 1,000% better than the X. Over the years, my X and I have become good friends and I've gone out of way to help her even after my son came to live with me. After paying her about $75K in child support, I didn't ask her for a dime for the 5 years my son lived with us.

She's probably getting married for a 3rd time in the near future and I jokingly told her that "the mailman" her boyfriend would have to gain my approval first, and she laughed. That shows the kind of relationship that we have.

Best of luck with your decision, It's a tough one BK, but I'm sure you'll do alright.

[MikeInJc aka M.I.A.]

I can't make an honest decision right now, and neither can she. So I'm not sure why she felt the need to get those, but it's just another slap in the face for me, and possibly is showing that she is proving by her actions she can't handle being married. Who knows, I'm hoping she's off the meds soon and we can begin moving forward with our true desires.

I think in order for you to consider giving a shot at reconciliation you have to look at the other person and their actions. If it is going to work out and she is TRULY interested in getting back with you and is still in love with you, then she would be doing everything and anything to plead her case of wanting to be back together with you, not the complete opposite.

This might sting and I apologize, but if she is out doing things right now that she KNOWS you don't like or approve of, then her mind is made up that she doens't want to be married. This should be the final piece of the puzzle for you make your stance on divorce.

My ex did the same thing, I began trying to win her back. It took me a week to realize it was over and that I shouldn't be trying to win her affection back, she should be trying to get my attention and affection back. She was the one that cheated. I believe women think it's a fun game to be chased in this kind of scenario, so they can get the best of both worlds, and that is to do what ever the eff they want to and still hold your nuts and attention while doing so.

[Chachie]

There were 2 people. The first was over a month ago, and was a 1 time thing. The second was this month, and happened like 5 times.

That just about constitutes a ****ing spree. I think I also picked up that the 5 times was in a two week period while you were watching the child/children. I don't want to incur Chomerics' wrath anymore, since he's the reconciliation guru and I'm just trying to make up for my own internal failures but I'm of the opinion that this woman has no concern whatsoever for your dignity or the integrity of your family. She only sees what she needs and takes it. The fact that it's all on the table is forcing her to act like she wants resolution but as soon as she's comfortable or feels "unpunishable," she'll go right back to living for her own personal agendas. Admittedly, you will have to play the wait-and-see on this, but I'm betting the house on it.

The only true common ingredient for being married is fidelity. Everything else exists on a sliding scale from situation to situation. There would be no reason to walk the aisle if fidelity was not an issue. Many marriages don't even involve children, but the contract definitely says you can only sleep with your spouse unless a clause is "written in" by both members. I don't recall BK mentioning anything about clauses. To break that deal 6 times in 2 months without so much as a conversation indicates some pretty serious character issues and ZERO regard for the father of her children. I just think BK should take a lot more time to weigh all this before he starts talking reconciliation and he should definitely get his legal ducks in a row for the upcoming year.

[BKSkinsFan]

My ex did the same thing, I began trying to win her back. It took me a week to realize it was over and that I shouldn't be trying to win her affection back, she should be trying to get my attention and affection back. She was the one that cheated. I believe women think it's a fun game to be chased in this kind of scenario, so they can get the best of both worlds, and that is to do what ever the eff they want to and still hold your nuts and attention while doing so.

I don't know how much I'm trying to win her back, I'm trying to tell her how I feel. Like I've mentioned before, I have no intentions of making any rash decisions.

While we've been talking, she's told me she still loves me, but I even told her, her overall dimeanour about everything just doesn't seem heart felt to me. How did you finally realize it was over? Did her attitude change once you stopped trying to win her back? If that happened for you in a week, I can't wait until next Friday.

[MikeInJc aka M.I.A.]

How did you finally realize it was over? Did her attitude change once you stopped trying to win her back? If that happened for you in a week, I can't wait until next Friday.

Basically when I said to myself "**** it" and started to have fun and not allowing myself to constantly be at her beckon call. Then when I did that, I wasn't even a blip on her radar. It was pretty much like she forgot that I existed, except to call me up and yell at me. That's when I knew I was better off going my own way.

The human mind and soul is a powerful, beautiful thing that needs to not be destroyed by someone so selfish and self absorbed.

The advice is mine, the decision is yours.

[HOF44]

Basically when I said to myself "**** it" and started to have fun and not allowing myself to constantly be at her beacon call.

Beacon call?? What did she have like a bat signal that shot MIA into the air??? Oh you mean beckon call, my bad.

[MikeInJc aka M.I.A.]

Beacon call?? What did she have like a bat signal that shot MIA into the air??? Oh you mean beckon call, my bad.

What are you???? my ex-wife pointing out my every flaw????:laugh:

**** you bob:silly:

[TheKurp]

Beacon call?? What did she have like a bat signal that shot MIA into the air??? Oh you mean beckon call, my bad.

I believe he meant "beck and call". I would think that beckon call would be redundant.

[Chachie]

I believe he meant "beck and call". I would think that beckon call would be redundant.

So what's a "beck?"

(Thread veering wildly off course.) :doh:

[chomerics]

I stand by my comment. You are in no position, regardless of your own experience, to suggest to anyone that they stop taking anti-depressants. To do so is irresponsible and is akin to Lucy setting up shop in her backyard with a sign that reads "Psychiatrist Is In".

Seriously, your credibility on this issue is shot when you start dispensing medical advice with absolutely no credentials other than your own experience taking anti-depressants. You're trivializing the complexity of the brain and minimalizing mental health disorders.

In some extent you are correct, and in another context you are completely wrong. Just because I don't know the history of the individual does not mean I know nothing about the problems these medications cause, and what they do to your brain when on them. In fact, I would venture a guess that I have a better understanding of the bio-chemestry of the brain, how it works, and how people experience emotions then a lot of psychologists do who have the authority to prescribe this medication. Everything is out there for people to read, and learn about, if you want to see some of the downfalls of the drug, read up on it. If you want to understand why it effects certain people differently, then read up on it.

The drugs that inhibit the reputake of neurotransmiters basically cause an overload of serotonin on the brain, which in SOME individuals cause bizzare behavior. Extacy causes a temporary increase in seratonin levels, have you known people to do crazy stuff on E??? I sure have. Well, these pills basically allow serotonin to buildup in the brain and it increases the serotonin levels of an individual gradually. E does it all at once with a chemical, and in a much higher dose, but it does it none the less.

What these pills do is remove your ability to worry about the consequences of your actions. I was on a drug like this, I know how I felt, and I know there are others who reacted in a similar manner to me. . .

Now, I did not say it was the reason for the behavior, BUT this drug DOES modify behavior patterns of ordinary individuals. I had a sister who we put in an outpatient mental institution for a few weeks because she went nuts on the drug. As I mentioned before, she was on Prozac and decided to jump out a second story window and broke her back. It was only after her experiences, and reading up on not only what these drugs do, but how they effect people and their behavior.

Here, from the Zoloft website. . .

http://zoloft.legalview.com/wikipedia/Antidepressant/#Thymoanesthesia

Thymoanesthesia

Closely related to sexual side effects is the phenomenon of emotional blunting, or mood anesthesia. Many users of SSRIs complain of apathy, lack of motivation, emotional numbness, feelings of detachment, and indifference to surroundings. They may describe this as a feeling of "not caring about anything any more." All SSRIs, SNRIs, and serotonergic TCAs are liable to cause this effect to varying degrees, especially at higher dosages.

Believe me, you lose the conscious part of your brain that tells you not to do things. You feel like nothing in the world can upset you and you detach yourself from emotions. It is how things like Columbine happen, because people are on drugs like this, and they can't understand the consequences of their actions.

Now maybe this isn't the issue, and maybe she is just unable to be in a relationship, who knows. . .but having her on a drug such as this can work counter to what therapy would do. If you were on a drug that removed your cognizant thought process, and left you devoid of emotions, would anything work for you? You would do what you want when you want consequences be damned, that is what the drug does to some people.

Read up on it Kurp, they effect a lot of people in ways such as this, and no I am not saying that the drug is the reason for her behavior. I am saying that the drug can cause wanton behavior, and she should be weened off the drug to get back to her normal self. no I am not a doctor, and I am not a psychologist, but I also do know the damage this drug can cause, and just because the happy pill makes some people happy, doesn't mean it makes EVERYONE happy. It makes people behave in bizzare ways not how they normally would. This is certain, and there is documented evidence about it. The reason is because of what I listed above. . . read up on it.

[chomerics]

That just about constitutes a ****ing spree. I think I also picked up that the 5 times was in a two week period while you were watching the child/children. I don't want to incur Chomerics' wrath anymore, since he's the reconciliation guru and I'm just trying to make up for my own internal failures but I'm of the opinion that this woman has no concern whatsoever for your dignity or the integrity of your family. She only sees what she needs and takes it. The fact that it's all on the table is forcing her to act like she wants resolution but as soon as she's comfortable or feels "unpunishable," she'll go right back to living for her own personal agendas. Admittedly, you will have to play the wait-and-see on this, but I'm betting the house on it.

Cahchie, no offense to you, and you have your opinions. If she was indeed the type of person who would do something such as this, there would obviously be more times right? I mean 2 different people in a 5 week span tells me that this is not a one time deal on the outset, I would agree. . .but if this is totally outside of the realm of her behavior, and if she never did cheat on him prior to that, then it would be something else that I would look for.

The only true common ingredient for being married is fidelity. Everything else exists on a sliding scale from situation to situation. There would be no reason to walk the aisle if fidelity was not an issue. Many marriages don't even involve children, but the contract definitely says you can only sleep with your spouse unless a clause is "written in" by both members. I don't recall BK mentioning anything about clauses. To break that deal 6 times in 2 months without so much as a conversation indicates some pretty serious character issues and ZERO regard for the father of her children. I just think BK should take a lot more time to weigh all this before he starts talking reconciliation and he should definitely get his legal ducks in a row for the upcoming year.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but if you remove someone's ability to think rationally, don't you think behavior like that is possible?