Advice for a nice guy: Update need more advice

[Bang]

I could not disagree with you more, I think you are dead wrong. Admitting where you erred, is not absolving her actions at all, in stead it is reinforcing the belief that he understands how she feels, and will try to make her feel better, feel more wanted, and give her the attention she wants and needs as a woman.

Sorry Chom, but in a marriage, there is no excusing infidelity. It simply trumps all. Admitting where you erred is fine, but in no way does it excuse what she did.

No way shape or form.

And that point holds fast to the rest, as well.

Once that happens, that is it. She has annihilated trust, she has destroyed faith, she has trampled respect.

If you can somehow allow that and then say it was your fault.. I truly can't understand that mindset at all. I have no problem with being honest with yourself, and knowing you're not perfect, but again, it in no way excuses her actions. (in fact, knowing those things about yourself will serve to make your next relationship better.)

No matter what the problems, she has a responsibility to try to resolve it without banging someone else.

She chose to ignore that responsibility. She CHOSE to do it. And that choice, once made, can't be un-made.

We'll just have to disagree on this one.

~Bang

[Mark The Homer]

People bring up your daughter as a reason to stay. I went through the same thing as you, at the same time. My son was a month shy of his 2nd birthday when my ex up and left. I've raised him ever since. He needs solid family life, and he has it. My ex and I are not what I'd call amicable, I'll never forgive her, and I keep my conversations with her to the minimum. I don't fight with her anymore, and we work together on raising my son, even though she's absent. She keeps to her visitation schedule and I'm very liberal with it.. if she wants to take him on a different day or swap weekends, i'm fine with it.

Okay, I wasn't going to do this but I'll post one more time....

Respect Bang's posts. His comments obviously carry a lot of weight, maybe more weight than anybody else's.

Regarding Bang's first sentence above, I was not saying your daughter is the reason to stay. I was saying your daughter is the reason you MIGHT stay -- after counseling. I'm saying it may not be best to throw it all out the window without at least a little counseling.

Has a marriage ever been salvaged after someone cheated? I think so. Has a spouse ever been forgiven? I think so.

So, again, I'll ask: Is there a chance to salvage the marriage? If the answer is no, then stop reading my post now and ignore anything else I have to say here.

If the answer is maybe, then would it kill you to get some counseling? Your daughter is two years old.

That's my two cents, and, yes, I"ve got a couple daughters who are teenagers now, and very well-adjusted by the way.

Good luck to you.

[chomerics]

Some people keep on cheating and some people don't. My guess is that there's a much higher probability of cheating with someone's who done it before rather than someone who has never done it.

To some extent that is true, and to some extent, that is not true. People cheat for a variety of different reasons, some of them are sexual, but most of them are emotional. Women need to feel wanted, and needed. This is a basic core feeling they have, and as a male, you need to make sure that your woman needs to have those holes filled up. You need to make sure that they understand how beautiful you think they are, and how sexy you think they are. . .especially after they have a child.

I will also say that there are women out there who should not be married because they can't be tied down to one person, there are guys like that too. I don't believe this is the case with BK though.

[Bang]

Has a marriage ever been salvaged after someone cheated? I think so. Has a spouse ever been forgiven? I think so.

So, again, I'll ask: Is there a chance to salvage the marriage? If the answer is no, then see stop reading my post now and ignore anything else I have to say here.

If the answer is maybe, then would it kill you to get some counseling? Your daughter is two years old.

That's my two cents, and, yes, I"ve got a couple daughters who are teenagers now, and very well-adjusted by the way.

Good luck to you.

good points. and I realize that my situation isn't his situation. So it's up to you BK. (and her, of course,, if shec isn't willing to even try, don't supplicate yourself any further.)

But, recognize that emotion is guiding you right now, and when you make your decision as to how to proceed, bear that in mind.

What can you live with?

~Bang

[BKSkinsFan]

As far as her reasoning, it was due to the fact that I wasn't acting interested in her, didn't show her affection, didn't give her attention, and I will readily admit that those things she is saying are very much true.

We are talking at this point, and trying to be as brutally honest as possible, and she told me that it wasn't due to lack of physical attraction to me, or not having good sex with me. She said that she didn't actually orgasm any of the times that she cheated on me. Not that it makes anything better, but that question seemed to be asked previously. She is at this point weaning off of medications that are making her not feel anything. She has been taking Zoloft, Neurontin, Tramadol, and another one for a while to try to be a better person for me and my daughter. It's obvious that approach backfired.

[TheKurp]

BKSkinsFan,

Any of us who have lived long enough have gone through to some extent what you're experiencing now.

If I've learned anything it's that the ability to handle these types of events in our lives, and the determination to move past them, all boils down to how we feel about ourselves.

If we value ourselves, and know in our hearts that we have something to offer that is worth being treated with kindness, respect, and love in return, then finding the strength to accept nothing less becomes a manageable task.

While recognizing our faults is paramount to achieving greater character, sometimes we get lost in those negative thoughts and fail to pay attention to the things that makes us valuable to know, love, and respect.

I have two criteria for the people I allow in my life. Do they make me happy and do they make me a better person? The extent to which they do both determines the value I place on them and thus, the effort I put into treating them with the same kindness, love, and respect that I demand for myself because of how I view myself as a person.

Look up the Six Pillars of Character. Honestly assess and measure yourself against those six pillars. Then measure your wife. Does your character measure up against your wife's and does her's measure up against your's. If there is an inequity then either you don't deserve her or she doesn't deserve you.

Whatever you do in life do not sell yourself short. Never accept less than what you give, and never give back less than what you're given. You have but one life to live. You have but so many breaths in your lifetime. Do not waste those breaths, and do not waste your life.

[Kosher Ham]

BK, you said "any of the times". Does that imply more than one person ? Or simply more than one time ?

To me it wouldn't matter, but it's ultimately your decision to make.

[rdsknbill]

Well, I have been in a 12 year relationship and a 2 year one in the past 16 or so years. In the breaks I have gone out with various women, and I *gasp* actually listen to what they say. I went out, had a lot of fun, and as of now, I still have not found a woman that hits on all levels. I am looking for my intellectual equal, sexually equal (I have a high libido), physically attractive to me, and someone I would perceive as a great mother. When i find that woman I will marry her, but in the mean time, as I am looking, I will continue to learn the tricks of the trade and make women shake like they're having a seizure

Sorry bill if you think I am quoting Dr. Phil. . .I am just relating what my views are through experience, and understanding of women. There is nothing wrong with empathy and introspection, it actually gives you a better understanding of the world, and it reveals motives you never knew existed before.

Wait wait wait. You had a TWELVE year relationship and that didn't turn onto a marriage because? It sounds to me that you either refuse to give you heart to someone or just afraid of marriage.

I won't ask how or why the twelve year deal ended, but that sort of tells me that your VAST WEALTH of experience has done nothing for you and the fact that you are still single is by your own design.

It just seems to me that anyone that is scared of marriage and REAL long term commitment shouldn't be offering advice on women and relationships.

[Bang]

...

She said that she didn't actually orgasm any of the times that she cheated on me.

A key word.

Chom said above that it's easy to just throw her out and close off (it's not, but we get the gist).. and I think this word indicates exactly who threw it away. Never forget that, even if you try to reconcile.

I know this thread is painful for you. For my part in picking at this open wound, I'm truly sorry. I know you know that looking for feedback on this will be painful anyway, and in seeing some of the things written, I know it's got to be hard. I'm not apologizing for what I've said, just for knowing that it's got to be hard to read all of this.

~Bang

[BKSkinsFan]

There may be some argument over what to do for me in this position, but I'd say that at this point nobody here giving advice is wrong. It is good to hear different sides to this, and these differing opinions reflect my current state of mind. Only time will give me my true answer, but having things out there and in the open not only helps in the healing process, it helps me further realize what I truly want out of the situation.

Do I want to be a doormat and give in after being devastated? Absolutely not. Would I have trust issues if we were to work things out after she gets counseling, and we get couples counseling? Of course. Could I be willing to sacrifice myself and my happiness for a chance to have a family and be able to raise my child with her mother? That's definitely a possibility of why I'm wanting to get back. Did I make big mistakes in not being a good husband, while she in turn wasn't being a good wife? Yes, I fully admit that I gave her all indications that I was not in love with her. Until this week, I haven't told her I loved her and meant it. I can say, at this point even though I'm an emotional wreck, when I say it, it most definitely feels like I mean it.

[BKSkinsFan]

BK, you said "any of the times". Does that imply more than one person ? Or simply more than one time ?

To me it wouldn't matter, but it's ultimately your decision to make.

There were 2 people. The first was over a month ago, and was a 1 time thing. The second was this month, and happened like 5 times.

[chomerics]

Sorry Chom, but in a marriage, there is no excusing infidelity. It simply trumps all. Admitting where you erred is fine, but in no way does it excuse what she did.

No way shape or form.

And that point holds fast to the rest, as well.

Once that happens, that is it. She has annihilated trust, she has destroyed faith, she has trampled respect.

Yes, everything you say is true, I am not arguing with that. But it is not as absolute as you say. Heck I can think of a LOT of ways to rectify the situation he is in, and how to come to grips with what happened.

If you can somehow allow that and then say it was your fault.. I truly can't understand that mindset at all. I have no problem with being honest with yourself, and knowing you're not perfect, but again, it in no way excuses her actions. (in fact, knowing those things about yourself will serve to make your next relationship better.)

Here is the thing I think you are missing Bang. Looking back and seeing how things got to where they are, and understanding what you could have done better is not admitting you are at fault. It is trying to understand how they got from point A to point B.

At one point she was madly in love with him and never would have thought about cheating on him. What changed in her head? What actions or inactions were done in the time between when she cheated and when she was married. By looking back and examining your own behavior in these instances, you are not admitting fault, but instead, you are trying to rectify a situation so it doesn't happen again. In this relationship or in any other relationship. I think you agree with me here.

Again, this is not excusing her behavior by any stretch. It is doing nothing of the sort. What it is doing is acknowledging things you have to work on as a man to make her feel better. Not only in this relationship, but if it doesn't work out in future relationships as well.

No matter what the problems, she has a responsibility to try to resolve it without banging someone else.

She chose to ignore that responsibility. She CHOSE to do it. And that choice, once made, can't be un-made.

No, the choice can not be unmade. She did it, I agree. it is pretty apparent from your post that there is no circumstance that you would ever take someone back who has been unfaithful. That is entirely up to you, and I can completely understand that point of view. At one time I used to think like that, now I think differently. Heck, at one time I voted for Mitt Romney, so it will give you an idea on how my opinions have changed over time

But here is the way I look at it. Life is not about absolutes, it not Manichean or as dualistic as many people think. It is more about the grays and the decisions that lead to the actions.

If it were me, and I was in his position, I would most likely talk to her, go to counseling and try to keep my family together. I would also need her to make atonement for what she did. This could be as simple as allowing a free night to go out and sleep with whomever, or a get out of jail free card. It could mean bringing another woman into the bedroom for a nice 2 on 1, who knows (but that could open up a whole new can of worms). Who knows what the correct solution would be, but it wouldn't be just forget and ignore, it would be more along the lines of you have a LOT of making up to do missy, and if you want to make this work, you better be on your best behavior for a long time. It would also mean that I would change some of my actions that may have helped steer her into the direction of another person. . . but in the end, it could mean that the marriage is that much stronger, and fulfilling.

The decision is up to BK, and him alone. I am glad that he has heard two different sides, and can see where people are coming from regarding infidelity.

i would love to see a woman't POV in this thread though, because they may have some inside information.

[chomerics]

BKSkinsFan,

Any of us who have lived long enough have gone through to some extent what you're experiencing now.

If I've learned anything it's that the ability to handle these types of events in our lives, and the determination to move past them, all boils down to how we feel about ourselves.

If we value ourselves, and know in our hearts that we have something to offer that is worth being treated with kindness, respect, and love in return, then finding the strength to accept nothing less becomes a manageable task.

While recognizing our faults is paramount to achieving greater character, sometimes we get lost in those negative thoughts and fail to pay attention to the things that makes us valuable to know, love, and respect.

I have two criteria for the people I allow in my life. Do they make me happy and do they make me a better person? The extent to which they do both determines the value I place on them and thus, the effort I put into treating them with the same kindness, love, and respect that I demand for myself because of how I view myself as a person.

Look up the Six Pillars of Character. Honestly assess and measure yourself against those six pillars. Then measure your wife. Does your character measure up against your wife's and does her's measure up against your's. If there is an inequity then either you don't deserve her or she doesn't deserve you.

Whatever you do in life do not sell yourself short. Never accept less than what you give, and never give back less than what you're given. You have but one life to live. You have but so many breaths in your lifetime. Do not waste those breaths, and do not waste your life.

Great words Kurp. . .

[BKSkinsFan]

A key word.

Chom said above that it's easy to just throw her out and close off (it's not, but we get the gist).. and I think this word indicates exactly who threw it away. Never forget that, even if you try to reconcile.

I know this thread is painful for you. For my part in picking at this open wound, I'm truly sorry. I know you know that looking for feedback on this will be painful anyway, and in seeing some of the things written, I know it's got to be hard. I'm not apologizing for what I've said, just for knowing that it's got to be hard to read all of this.

~Bang

Don't be sorry for anything you've said. I appreciate you bringing up painful memories in your past to try to help me through my present pain.

Sure it's painful, but dealing with this up front seems to me to be the best approach to move forward. Avoiding the pain just sets me on the path that I normally take when dealing with adversity, and is something I see as a flaw with myself and need to work on.

[Bang]

Until this week, I haven't told her I loved her and meant it. I can say, at this point even though I'm an emotional wreck, when I say it, it most definitely feels like I mean it.

I'd be very wary of this.

You're grieving.

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

This is the cycle of grief, and I can bet you're following right down the path. It sounds like you're in the bargaining phase.

~Bang

[BKSkinsFan]

I'd be very wary of this.

You're grieving.

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

This is the cycle of grief, and I can bet you're following right down the path. It sounds like you're in the bargaining phase.

~Bang

I am being wary, but I am also trying to be as honest as possible with my current feelings. I am not and will not act on any emotions that I feel for quite some time. I know I can't act on impulse given the fact that my emotions are all over the place.

[rdsknbill]

There were 2 people. The first was over a month ago, and was a 1 time thing. The second was this month, and happened like 5 times.

OK enough with arguing with Chom.

2 different guys?

5 times this month?

BK, I don't know man.

At the end of the day you have to do what is best for you and your daughter. Emotionally and legally. If there is a chance of reconciliation, I would persue it very cautiously.

[Kosher Ham]

There were 2 people. The first was over a month ago, and was a 1 time thing. The second was this month, and happened like 5 times.

Maybe I missed this part. But how exactly did you find out ?

I went to a wedding last year where the woman had been with the guy for 10 years. However she had been cheating and lying for 7 months, sleeping with a married man. He found out only 2 months after they got married, and its over. I want my money back.

Another guy I know just got engaged to a girl that cheated on him twice (with the same guy) just weeks prior to him popping the question. Everyone knows and yet no one wants to be the jerk to say something to the guy. It's a shame really. If he asked me I would say something but he hasn't so I mind my business. This wedding I won't be attending.

[BKSkinsFan]

Maybe I missed this part. But how exactly did you find out ?

This past weekend I started getting suspicious. She had confided in a friend what she was doing, and I called that person who in turn confirmed my suspicions.

[Kosher Ham]

This past weekend I started getting suspicious. She had confided in a friend what she was doing, and I called that person who in turn confirmed my suspicions.

Brutal. Bro, good luck.

If you want to be with her, take her on Moment of Truth. If she refuses she has a lot more skeletons to hide.

[BKSkinsFan]

Brutal. Bro, good luck.

If you want to be with her, take her on Moment of Truth. If she refuses she has a lot more skeletons to hide.

I have thought about that actually, to get a polygraph. At this point, she's not sure if she can be back with me. She wants to get off the meds and see how she's truly feeling. She doesn't want to try to make it work again if her heart's not completely in it, because she feels so bad that she hurt me, and would never let it happen again or have things get to the unloving stage that they were at before she did this.

[chomerics]

She has been taking Zoloft, Neurontin, Tramadol, and another one for a while to try to be a better person for me and my daughter. It's obvious that approach backfired.

Dude she was on zoloft??? Anything that messes with your serotonin levels is bad news IMO, and Zoloft falls in that category. How long has she been on the drug? Do you understand what it does? It inhibits the uptake of serotonin levels in the body, something that can wreck havoc with your ability to reason. It also effects your libido to some extent. It still does not exclude the behavior by any stretch, but it will to some extent make sense of a horrid situation.

As an antidepressant, it removes some of the conscious thought of guilt, remorse, and pain by increasing serotonin levels. It causes people who have a normal and rational behavior pattern to do things out of context. Prozac does the same thing. It removes the reasoning part of people's consciousness.

I would first take her off the drug as a start.

Is there anyone who knows more about Zoloft? I have a bunch of experience with people on Prozac, and I have seen how people's behavior patterns become far FAR extreme when on the drug, I was wondering if anyone knew if Zoloft had similar type effects. . .

[chomerics]

I have thought about that actually, to get a polygraph. At this point, she's not sure if she can be back with me. She wants to get off the meds and see how she's truly feeling. She doesn't want to try to make it work again if her heart's not completely in it, because she feels so bad that she hurt me, and would never let it happen again or have things get to the unloving stage that they were at before she did this.

Dude, first things first, get her off the meds to find out how she truly feels. Give it time, and continue to talk to her. She sounds rational, and understanding, as well as remorseful, but she needs to be away from the drugs to see how she truly feels.

[BKSkinsFan]

There's another thing I'm going to add to this, not sure if I mentioned it previously or not. She had a few tattoos when we got married, and I was fine with them. Recently she has gotten several more, knowing that I didn't want her to get them. At first she'd state they she figured I didn't care, yet knew I'd be mad that she got them. Then she'd say, if you truly love me, it shouldn't matter, it's just ink. However yesterday she went and got 2 more. After all of this, she's decided to further do something I don't like, and said she did it because I had been telling her I'm proceeding with the divorce.

[Kosher Ham]

Ok BK, someone has to say it.

Grow a pair and cut this chick loose.

She is playing you and has been. She is not happy and you groveling and begging for her back isn't going to change anything, except that you lose your dignity. F' that.

You did nothing wrong, she is the one that should be on your "package" like you had the anecdote in it.

No way should you feel guilty about not talking to her if anything it should be the opposite, thats how she should be feeling. She refused to come to you with her issues and instead went into the arms and beds of other men. Walk away with your head up and you pride and dignity in tact. As I said in my initial response; keep an amicable relationship with her only for your daughter, otherwise send that woman packing and tell her she is now free to do who she wants, as are you.