Teller Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think the "it was so great back in the day" stuff is a little exagerrated. Our present-day homicide rate is actually much lower than it was in the 80's or in the 20's. We have dropped almost to the lowest levels of the 60's. We have reduced typical kinds of murders and robberies, but perhaps that has pushed these kinds of sensational crimes more into the limelight.I'd also like to take a crack at this ... I really think all these symptoms (unwed mothers, divorces, religion, pragmatic education, patriotism) stem from a systematic emphasis on individualism and independence that is one of the great strengths of American culture but which also has a downside. Nobody wants to rely on anyone else for support these days, and it has become much more important to acquire the skills to get ahead in life than to get along with your neighbors. Being individually happy has become more important than keeping a family together. Independence has turned into selfishness. The communities used to be smaller. The country used to be more unified. Asking for help and receiving help used to be the norm, whether it was from extended family, from your neighbors, or your fellow countrymen. Now, if you need help from others, you're seen as a loser. So people don't ask for help anymore. They get lost, they become angry, and they lash out with violence. Agree completely. All too often, asking for help is looked upon as a sign of weakness, when in reality, I think it's a sign of great strength. IMO, it takes a bigger man to say, "Hey, I can't do this all on my own," than it does to try, and fail. What the hell are you doing in here, bringing in good conservative values? Dammit, this is supposed to be a gun bashing thread! Hey, the whole time I argued in the gay-marriage thread, I did so without a single mention of religion, so I figured I deserved a little slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Pablo Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Listen to all those hippies advocating love for everyone... Then, apply that to your children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I don't think so, I think that's just because we weren't around to see it. I mean, are we just excluding all the racial violence, church bombings, ect when deciding it was a simpler, less violent time?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fullerton_Library_Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe_Elementary_School_attack As you can see, it's not exactly a new phenomenon. Things just get lost and forgotten in history and there's ALWAYS the mentality that the times are worse than they've ever been. The "kids these days" syndrome, if you will. People are people, we haven't changed that much. Edit: Very astute observations, Dj. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Good calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 there are two things you can do. first option does not prevent the shootings as much as it just limits the casualties. second option may help, not sure. 1. allow guns on campus, if these shootings haven't been evidence enough, saying "no guns allowed" doesn't prevent someone with a death-wish from going on a rampage. if other people on campus had guns (even if you just limited it to teachers) you'd at least have a means of ending the terror instead of hoping for the best 2. stop the media coverage of the shootings. people see all the coverage it gets and some of those thinking about ending their lives might see all the attention these people get and think, "hey, if i shoot a bunch of people before i go, i'll be noticed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 *sigh* First, let me say that I agree with you on both points, PP. I'm just not sure how effectively we can implement either, unfortunately. For starters, I don't want every single drunk college kid on every single campus in the country carrying a .45. Do they deserve personal protection? Absolutely. But is having each of them packing opening up a whole new can of worms? I think so. Now, if you want to limit it to instructors, that's fine, IMO. Just remember 85% of them are flaming libs who wouldn't think about touching a gun, even if their life...well...you know. As to your second point, it's simple supply and demand. If we quit watching when networks broadcast events like these, they'll quit covering them. But as long as human beings continue to slow down on interstates to get a good look at accident victims, stories like these are a no-brainer for news directors. BTW, when I create my ideal country, you'll be invited for a state dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 BTW, when I create my ideal country, you'll be invited for a state dinner. Dude, just take over West Virginia. No one will notice, promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 *sigh*First, let me say that I agree with you on both points, PP. I'm just not sure how effectively we can implement either, unfortunately. For starters, I don't want every single drunk college kid on every single campus in the country carrying a .45. Do they deserve personal protection? Absolutely. But is having each of them packing opening up a whole new can of worms? I think so. Now, if you want to limit it to instructors, that's fine, IMO. Just remember 85% of them are flaming libs who wouldn't think about touching a gun, even if their life...well...you know. As to your second point, it's simple supply and demand. If we quit watching when networks broadcast events like these, they'll quit covering them. But as long as human beings continue to slow down on interstates to get a good look at accident victims, stories like these are a no-brainer for news directors. BTW, when I create my ideal country, you'll be invited for a state dinner. I know all too well, it would ideally work, but we're dealing with frickin' PEOPLE! i won't hold my breath on getting guns on campus, but i will say i'm doing my part with the media thing. I will not watch anything about the shooter himself, and for the most part won't even watch the coverage as its happening. oh, and if you have any positions open in your cabinet, i'd gladly take the part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 hmm... i think i pressed "back" instead of edit... damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Dude, just take over West Virginia. No one will notice, promise. Are you friggin' crazy? WV has more guns per household (OK, **** you, trailers :laugh: ) than PBRs in the fridge. And a 1997 study showed that the average WV home had 14 fulls and 38 empties. I know all too well, it would ideally work, but we're dealing with frickin' PEOPLE! i won't hold my breath on getting guns on campus, but i will say i'm doing my part with the media thing. I will not watch anything about the shooter himself, and for the most part won't even watch the coverage as its happening.oh, and if you have any positions open in your cabinet, i'd gladly take the part. Good on you for not watching. Now if we can just convince the other 300 million idiots to do so, we'll be all set. And yeah, I think I'll make you Secretary of TILIS -- Telling It Like It Is. Ken's gonna be my press secretary though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Ken's gonna be my press secretary though. wow, um, i'm not even sure what to make of that one. i can't tell if that's a genius move or a remarkably stupid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 wow, um, i'm not even sure what to make of that one. i can't tell if that's a genius move or a remarkably stupid one. Hey. I plan on becoming something of an evil overlord, so I'm gonna need some 'spiracy theories to cover my tracks. On those rare occasions that I DO want my minions to know the truth, that's when I'll break you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Hey. I plan on becoming something of an evil overlord, so I'm gonna need some 'spiracy theories to cover my tracks. On those rare occasions that I DO want my minions to know the truth, that's when I'll break you out. oh, i see, he can distract them with his jabbering about 9/11 and stuff while you do unthinkable acts no one would even think a conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blchizzleke Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 well the easiest way to stop school shootings is to just no longer have schools seriously though there probably is no real way to stop school shootings unfortunately. during my experience in high school it would have been easy to bring a hand gun into school and this im sure is the reality in most high schools. metal detectors and such are a step to make it less likely, however it really can not be stopped if someone is determined. im suprised there are not more to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 well the easiest way to stop school shootings is to just no longer have schools :laugh: why didn't i think of that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baculus Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Can we please stop the talk about "assault rifles"? This comes up every single time there is a shooting, and rarely is an actual assault rifle involved. A shotgun is not an assault rifle. A pistol is not an assault rifle. What needs to change is culture and our environment. We've had a well-armed society for years and never had these issues. And it isn't as if firearms are simply more abundant or advanced in design, but it's the internal process of some folks that seemed to have gone wrong. Could it be environmental, as in the pollutants in the air, water, and what we eat? Why about the connection between violent acts and drugs such as ritalin, especially concerning kids and young adults? And what about what we watch, in movies and TV, what we listen to in music, and how we spend our time in daily life? Things have changed from 50 years ago because the world has changed. It isn't about the guns, per se, but the people holding them and what's happening to their brains. And a lot of what I mentioned, I believe, has to do with changes in their bodies, probably chemical related in way or another, that is causing this irrational behavior. And then combine this with modern life, with fears of failure, with the preoccupation of self, "Why is everyone against me? Why is life so unfair?," with endless anxiety, and you have a powder keg waiting to explode. We can talk about all day about firearms, restricting them, how to control them...whatever. That isn't going to solve the root source of the problem and the reasons why some people are becoming violent, especially when they lash out against strangers in a school. Nor, most likely, will it prevent a determined person from finding a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 In more ways than we care to admit we are all animals. What makes us unique is that instead of claws and sharp teeth we have developed the rough equivalent in the form of firearms. Before that it was swords and spears. Before that......well you get the idea. That does not necessarily excuse these barbaric acts. But it does explain it. I suppose if we could remove those people who spend more time living as an animal and not a higher form of life from society, we could rid ourselves of this problem. Exactly how you do this in a democratic society is beyond me short of total authoritarian control of our population. Are we willing to live in fear of our military so that we may no longer fear the disturbed individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 And really. What makes a school shooting more tragic than any other shooting. Aside from the ratings the media can deliver by sensationalizing the issue to an extreme. A murder is a murder. Does the media rush to every inner city gang bang that occurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_cavalierman Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I agree...Crazy will find a way no matter your precautions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Erase the name of the person that does it. Never show their face, their name or have it spoken ever. These people want their names put out there.. end that, you end 90%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldysknzfn1 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I'm all for closing the gunshow loophole but laws are just for the people who choose to abide by them. There are tons of laws on the books that get broken every day...laws prevent little crime imo. Murder is against the law..yet...my son was still killed. So while I understand the want for stricter gun laws and I do think there needs to be some revamping...it will not stop these types of shootings. I believe the majority of shootings are not the work of legal gun owners. With that said..I have no idea how to stop school shootings. It's sad and seems so hopeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 more abortions lesser access to guns lesser glorification of violence more after school programs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe Jam Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I don't think so, I think that's just because we weren't around to see it. I mean, are we just excluding all the racial violence, church bombings, ect when deciding it was a simpler, less violent time?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_University,_Fullerton_Library_Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cologne_school_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe_Elementary_School_attack As you can see, it's not exactly a new phenomenon. Things just get lost and forgotten in history and there's ALWAYS the mentality that the times are worse than they've ever been. The "kids these days" syndrome, if you will. People are people, we haven't changed that much. Edit: Very astute observations, Dj. Good point. But you can't say that teen violence is not on the rise. I think teen violence is probably happening now more than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDRedskinsFan Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 "If nobody has guns then nobody gets shot."Seriously though.. There need to be stricter laws. Period. The second amendment supporters need to realize when that amendment was written. 200 years ago. Do you think they envisioned a world that would be this screwed up? Highly doubt it. Stricter laws. Those who don't want stricter laws can get over it. Why should it matter to you? What do you have to hide? You see, more laws restricting the purchase of guns sounds like a great idea, until we realize that the people committing these acts are not law-abiding citizens. No matter how many laws you enact, the only people abiding by them are already upstanding citizens. Criminals will always be criminals. The only thing that should be tightened is the background investigations that occur before you purchase a gun. In fact, I don't even think permits are necessary for different types of guns. It should be simplified: If you pass a rigorous background investigation and mental evaluation, then you should be allowed a permit. If not, then no permit. I'm talking a 6 month evaluation to determine suitability to owning a gun, that allows some time to observe the subject's behavior. The permit holder should be reevaluated every 3 years and one slip up, they lose their permit. Also, there should be mandatory gun training classes for all citizens when they turn 21, that way every single person that is permitted to own a gun should know how to use it. If you walked into a public place knowing the chances that a few people have concealed weapons, would you light the place up with bullets? Probably not, but even if you did, you wouldn't get far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 more abortionslesser access to guns lesser glorification of violence more after school programs Socialist , though I would support removing some people from this world. Restrict access on campuses Better security Better screening for troubled students Allow qualified individuals to carry on campus Perhaps lock the door? Just removing guns will not work since there are many ways to inflict mass casualties.( my daughters friend was brewing up napalm ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speardog1 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I remember in undergrad. my abnormal psychology professor would talk about this situation. His answer was simple. The media needs to stop covering these shootings or suicides. Suicidal people see this on television and see the attention it gets and want to do the same. Same thing with serial killers, and especially young high school kids that hang themselves or whatever. You don't cover it on the news, there's less likely to be a copycat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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