Did Gibbs' style hinder Portis?

[Mooka]

Our lack of a passing game hinders Portis. Put that on Gibbs if you want.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Weak opponents in '05? 3 of those "weak opponents" were division rivals in the toughest division in football that year. One of those opponents won the NFC East division, and another missed the playoffs by one game.

lets get real. we played, the arizona cardinals, a horrid team that season and we BARELY beat them on an antonio brown kick return after brunell tossed up 3 picks. we beat the rams who had their 3rd string QB playing, some guy from harvard, and the whole game all the announcers did was laugh at him for being from harvard. we beat a dejected cowboys team at home that wasnt that great, and we beat the eagles, whos season was over and had 2 backup QBs playing in the game. not to mention the TO fiasco ruined their whole year.

the giants were the one good team we beat, but to think we had a tough schedule down that stretch is a bit much.

The postseason win wasn't impressive as far as offensive production, but Brunell had been playing injured since the Giants game, and we were missing Thomas, not to mention Moss and Cooley were the only receiving threats. Tampa had the #1 defense that year, and we were limited on O due to injuries. The simple fact we were putting up 30+ points the last couple games, and then did that in the playoffs should tell you as much about the impact of injuries then.

if were gonna play the injury deal, its hard to argue. brunell didnt even play a lot of the giants game, ramsey did if you remember. either way, our offense was far from good in the playoffs, our defense stepped up huge for us and got us a lot of our points.

1500 yards isn't a big deal? How many backs rushed for 1500 yards this season? Oh, that's right, none..

and this was the first year since 1993 that nobody has gone over 1500. 1500 is a pretty common occurance in the NFL, it just so happens that in our grind offense, 1500 is pretty rare. like i said, portis had already done that twice in denver, which isnt even close to their record.

Yes Portis did more in Denver, but the fact he went to a new conference, in a new division, on a team with a completely different offensive and blocking scheme, and still put up a franchise record is pretty impressive.

I agree with you on Gibbs system being designed more for short yards and grinding it out.

i still think portis is impressive, 1500 is no easy feat, but for him and his talent level, 1500 should be pretty close to his average, considering how easy it was for him in denver.

[Cpt.Chaos47]

You have to figure Zorn will run a system similar to what is ran in Seattle. Look what Shaun Alexander did in that system and in my opinion Portis has way more natural ability than him. Alexander's production was way down the last 2 years, but thats because his ability has started to decline. I think Portis could thrive in this system.

[Gregpeck99]

I would trade Portis in a heatrtbeat for Ocho Sinko and steal a Rb in the second round (either Jamaal Charles or Kevin Smith).

[TankRizzo]

Gibbs not only hindered his production, but I'd also say he cut a few years off of his career as well.

[HailSkinz1]

i disagree, i think gibbs system is dated and weak. it took a 5 game miracle run against a string of weak opponents for us to get into the playoffs that year, where gibbs offense produced the worst post season numbers in a playoff win (and frankly, i cant imagine how much worse an offense could be, even in a loss). and 1500 for a franchise record isnt a big deal in my opinion, portis had already done that and more twice in denver two years in a row in the system were gonna be running now (or close to it) and he did it with far less carries.

the reason our rushing record was so low is exactly why i think gibbs hindered portis, his system is made for high attempts and low gains to wear defenses down, not homerun hitting running plays and 5.0+ averages.

If you want to compare Gibbs current (or recent) system to what Shanahan runs, then I agree - I like Shanahan's offense. But I don't think that's the point.

The fact that Portis and Moss both broke longtime Redskins records under Gibbs tells me that they were not hindered by the Gibbs system. When we went to the Saunders offense, that didn't work.

I will give you this though - the Gibbs offense is team-oriented designed to win, not individual-oriented designed to create Pro Bowlers. Super Bowls over Pro Bowls.

And I know you and I disagree on this one BLC, but JC did more to hinder Portis than anyone. They stacked the box with JC in the game (video tape proves that). Once JC was out of the lineup, the entire offense improved. Instead of blaming Gibbs, blame the players in the game, especially JC. You have a theory that Gibbs hindered Portis - I have video evidence and statistics that indicate JC hindered Portis, despite what you and others said before this season started that Portis would be huge with JC under center. I told you then that would not be the case, and I was right.

Hail,

H

[Stricknine]

Ive been saying all this for a couple of weeks. Right when I first got the idea wed be running a WCO. And I agree with Rizzo above me, Gibbs took years off Portis' career. You gotta love the way he turned himself into more of what Gibbs wanted. And whoever said Portis isnt elite needs to be shot.

[Aston]

Anyone from the "Gibbs Didn't Hinder Portis" camp care to explain these two categories?

[APBT]

Ofcourse Gibbs' style hindered Portis?

His biggest weakness was that he didn't go into many passing formations to run the ball. We never surprise teams. We never forced teams to make safeties play deep.

In fact we would only hope so we could audible. Gibbs never dictated and teams knew it. Keith Bullock was asked on the Sirius Radio, what scheme did you guys use to beat the Redskins and he said " We didnt really, because they take what you give them and we werent giving them nothing." "We let the play come to us"

BTW, We put 3 TEs with an additional Lineman out there and expect teams not know we are going to run the ball??

We need to scheme to the abilities of the talent, not the other way around.

[Hiro]

Well John Madden thinks different and I will take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

And don't forget Smurf, Clinton Portis is Troy Aikman's favorite player!

If the WCO we implement uses the zone blocking schemes that Clinton thrived in while in Denver, I think we could see a very scary rushing attack come this September!

[Cooool...E]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

I think he broke the attempts record that year as well. Avg. it is about avg.

[Popeman38]

First of all, for the gazillionth time, comparing Portis in Denver and in Washington is stupid. Different offensive philosophies and different blocking schemes.

Second, Portis is an elite back based on the only thing that matters: statistics. Look at his career numbers to this point. Compare those numbers to the all-time greats and you will see a very favorable comparison. To say he is not elite (based on stats) is the same as saying Emmitt Smith wasn't great because his o-line was sooo good.

Third, Joe Gibbs philosophy is a heavy dose of the RB. His offense is not designed for 60 yd runs. It is designedto be very physical on 4 yd runs on 1st and 2nd down, setting up a very managable 3rd down situation. Hence why it is very predictable.

That is all, for now!

[Monk4HOF]

To answer the question...Yes. It took CP more carries to achieve results similar to what he had in Denver. He is the man but I think he would be greatly helped with diff. blocking schemes. Here's to hoping that will happen with a new staff and CP will make it to Hawaii next year!

HTTR!

[Rskins06]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

Agree 100%. Honestly, the biggest mistake I have seen in JG II was bringing in AS and changing the offense. The offense was 1 WR short of being extremely dangerous.

[Popeman38]

You have to figure Zorn will run a system similar to what is ran in Seattle. Look what Shaun Alexander did in that system and in my opinion Portis has way more natural ability than him. Alexander's production was way down the last 2 years, but thats because his ability has started to decline. I think Portis could thrive in this system.

Zorn didn't run a true WCO in Seattle. In a true WCO, you have split backs behind the QB. In our case, that would mean having Betts/Sellers and Portis split behind Campbell. Of course, there will be variations on this that hve a FB and RB set up in the I. The true WCO will allow Portis to absolutely THRIVE, contrary to some posters on this board who think he is gone. It wouldn't be out of the question to have 2 1,000 yd rushers in the near future, if Zorn is given the freedom to impliment a true WCO.

[Pedro]

Portis is good enough to be a feature back i.e. we play to suit his strengths. Sure he changed his physique to be more of the bruiser Gibbs needed but it wasn't using his strengths. Instead of picking up a blitzer and having a couple of seconds more to release the ball (assuming your OL doesn't get beat...) isn't as good IMO as having Portis be an easy dump off where he may make 2-60 yards. Much like Westbrook is used.

When we line up with two backs both guys need to be able to run/catch/block to make it harder to read what is coming. Having a rubbish blocker lined up with CP on two back formations kind of defeats the point... hopefully Betts isn't as bad a blocker next season as he has the rep for or we need to offload him. Going along that train of thought wouldn't the shifty Marcus Mason be a good fit in a WCO?

[Robbnva]

Anyone from the "Gibbs Didn't Hinder Portis" camp care to explain these two categories?

:notworthy and to seeing him do that when we run the WCO. I read the WCO allows RBs like Portis to be more successful and we do not have to rely on our OL as much as the system we were currently running. Who knows if that is true or not but i am sure portis AND Betts are happier and hopefully BOTH players can get 1000 yard season like some other teams with 2 good RBs

[elkabong82]

If you want to compare Gibbs current (or recent) system to what Shanahan runs, then I agree - I like Shanahan's offense. But I don't think that's the point.

The fact that Portis and Moss both broke longtime Redskins records under Gibbs tells me that they were not hindered by the Gibbs system. When we went to the Saunders offense, that didn't work.

I will give you this though - the Gibbs offense is team-oriented designed to win, not individual-oriented designed to create Pro Bowlers. Super Bowls over Pro Bowls.

And I know you and I disagree on this one BLC, but JC did more to hinder Portis than anyone. They stacked the box with JC in the game (video tape proves that). Once JC was out of the lineup, the entire offense improved. Instead of blaming Gibbs, blame the players in the game, especially JC. You have a theory that Gibbs hindered Portis - I have video evidence and statistics that indicate JC hindered Portis, despite what you and others said before this season started that Portis would be huge with JC under center. I told you then that would not be the case, and I was right.

Hail,

H

Yeah, cuz an oft-injured Todd Wade, a tackle playing guard Fabini, and an undrafted rookie Heyer had nothing to do with other teams stacking the box. It was all JC and his ability to throw the ball deep that kept defenders stacked in the box.

You want statistical evidence? Look at the absurd amount of fumbles we had this year. Even Todd Collins fumbled a couple times because of our injuries to the O-line. Your evidence only shows the box stacked, JC is a pretty poor explanation as to why that box was stacked, especially since he can get out of the pocket and can throw the ball deep.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If you want to compare Gibbs current (or recent) system to what Shanahan runs, then I agree - I like Shanahan's offense. But I don't think that's the point.

The fact that Portis and Moss both broke longtime Redskins records under Gibbs tells me that they were not hindered by the Gibbs system. When we went to the Saunders offense, that didn't work.

I will give you this though - the Gibbs offense is team-oriented designed to win, not individual-oriented designed to create Pro Bowlers. Super Bowls over Pro Bowls.

And I know you and I disagree on this one BLC, but JC did more to hinder Portis than anyone. They stacked the box with JC in the game (video tape proves that). Once JC was out of the lineup, the entire offense improved. Instead of blaming Gibbs, blame the players in the game, especially JC. You have a theory that Gibbs hindered Portis - I have video evidence and statistics that indicate JC hindered Portis, despite what you and others said before this season started that Portis would be huge with JC under center. I told you then that would not be the case, and I was right.

Hail,

H

im not sure it was JC as much as teams pretty much knew exactly what we were gonna do. APBT posted that keith bulluck claimed that he knew what the skins would be running and they just had to stop them, vs actually creating some deception on offense. when we run 3 TEs out there, the ball is going to be run. thats not deception. when you put 4 WRs out there, then run the ball, thats deceiving, and we all know how good is in open space.

my question would be to you, why would teams stack the box on jason? is it because teams thought he was a bad quarterback? or because teams knew exactly what was coming on any given play because we ran a predictable offense? arguments can be made for both sides, i just think campbell wasnt grasping the offense that well and we were way too predictable.

i also think our offense was gibbs vs saunders in an epic battle of old school vs finesse.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

and i also agree with elkabong (again!), our line was so banged up at times, defenses would stack the box because they knew they could get constant pressure on our pourous line. and it worked, because campbell fumbled like 59 times (13 i think).

[cyfar]

Portis is not elite.

You're so silly.

[ibarramedia]

Zorn didn't run a true WCO in Seattle. In a true WCO, you have split backs behind the QB. In our case, that would mean having Betts/Sellers and Portis split behind Campbell. Of course, there will be variations on this that hve a FB and RB set up in the I. The true WCO will allow Portis to absolutely THRIVE, contrary to some posters on this board who think he is gone. It wouldn't be out of the question to have 2 1,000 yd rushers in the near future, if Zorn is given the freedom to impliment a true WCO.

The Seahawks ran a lot more split backs than other WCO teams. All the WCO teams of today including the Seahawks run out of the I formation or they go one-back. Teams simply get more production out of the I formation as far as power running.

[ibarramedia]

now that gibbs is gone and were switching to a WCO, you gotta wonder, is portis gonna go back to his denver days where he was a complete monster? in the WCO, i doubt we'll see anymore grinding out short yardage, and jumbo package business, and countless runs up the middle. i dont think portis was ever really built for this, even though he executed it as best he could and pretty well at times. but looking at runningbacks under joe gibbs for the 15 years he coached in total, its pretty telling. here are some stats for every running back under gibbs from 1981-1992, and 2004-2007.

(minimum of 200 carries, or highest attempt per season)

1981 (8-8) - joe washington - 210 attempts, 916 yards, 4.4 per carry

1982 (8-1) - john riggins - 177 attempts, 559 yards, 3.1 per carry

1983 (14-2) - john riggins - 375 attempts, 1347 yards, 3.6 per carry

1984 (11-5) - john riggins - 327 attempts, 1239 yards, 3.8 per carry

1985 (10-6) - george rogers - 231 attempts, 1093 yards, 4.7 per carry

1986 (12-4) - george rogers - 303 attempts, 1203 yards, 4.0 per carry

1987 (11-4) - george rogers - 163 attempts, 613 yards, 3.8 per carry

1988 (7-9) - timmy smith - 155 attempts, 470 yards, 3.0 per carry

1989 (10-6) - gerald riggs - 201 attempts, 834 yards, 4.1 per carry

1990 (10-6) - ernest byner - 297 attempts, 1219 yards, 4.1 per carry

1991 (14-2) - ernest byner - 274 attempts, 1048 yards, 3.8 per carry

1992 (9-7) - ernest byner - 262 attempts, 998 yards, 3.8 per carry

flash forward 12 years

2004 (6-10) - clinton portis - 343 attempts, 1315 yards, 3.9 per carry

2005 (10-6) - clinton portis - 352 attempts, 1516 yards, 4.3 per carry

2006 (5-11) - ladell betts - 245 attempts, 1147 yards, 4.7 per carry

2007 (9-7) - clinton portis - 325 attempts, 1262 yards, 3.9 per carry

joe gibbs has had lead rushers average over 4.5 yards a carry twice during his entire 16 year coaching career. even during gibbs first tenure there were plenty of running backs that would average over 4.5 yards a year, whereas most gibbs runningbacks had very low averages. im hoping now that gibbs is gone we can get away from this grinding running offense and actually use portis to the best of his abilities. people always debate whether portis had lost it or if he was injured. well he led the league in attempts last year and didnt end the season with any injuries. im hoping with the new WCO we run that portis can be as lethal as he was in denver.

i dont think hes lost a step, i think our offensive gameplan made his numbers look poor.

Do you have the same kind of statistics for running backs under Norv Turner in Washington?

[TotalRecall]

It was Portis' size that hindered him. He's more built as a Marshall Faulk, not a power rusher.

[TheItalianStallion]

What does the term "zone blocking" mean, and how does it differ from Gibbs' scheme? Thanks.