Did Gibbs' style hinder Portis?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

now that gibbs is gone and were switching to a WCO, you gotta wonder, is portis gonna go back to his denver days where he was a complete monster? in the WCO, i doubt we'll see anymore grinding out short yardage, and jumbo package business, and countless runs up the middle. i dont think portis was ever really built for this, even though he executed it as best he could and pretty well at times. but looking at runningbacks under joe gibbs for the 15 years he coached in total, its pretty telling. here are some stats for every running back under gibbs from 1981-1992, and 2004-2007.

(minimum of 200 carries, or highest attempt per season)

1981 (8-8) - joe washington - 210 attempts, 916 yards, 4.4 per carry

1982 (8-1) - john riggins - 177 attempts, 559 yards, 3.1 per carry

1983 (14-2) - john riggins - 375 attempts, 1347 yards, 3.6 per carry

1984 (11-5) - john riggins - 327 attempts, 1239 yards, 3.8 per carry

1985 (10-6) - george rogers - 231 attempts, 1093 yards, 4.7 per carry

1986 (12-4) - george rogers - 303 attempts, 1203 yards, 4.0 per carry

1987 (11-4) - george rogers - 163 attempts, 613 yards, 3.8 per carry

1988 (7-9) - timmy smith - 155 attempts, 470 yards, 3.0 per carry

1989 (10-6) - gerald riggs - 201 attempts, 834 yards, 4.1 per carry

1990 (10-6) - ernest byner - 297 attempts, 1219 yards, 4.1 per carry

1991 (14-2) - ernest byner - 274 attempts, 1048 yards, 3.8 per carry

1992 (9-7) - ernest byner - 262 attempts, 998 yards, 3.8 per carry

flash forward 12 years

2004 (6-10) - clinton portis - 343 attempts, 1315 yards, 3.9 per carry

2005 (10-6) - clinton portis - 352 attempts, 1516 yards, 4.3 per carry

2006 (5-11) - ladell betts - 245 attempts, 1147 yards, 4.7 per carry

2007 (9-7) - clinton portis - 325 attempts, 1262 yards, 3.9 per carry

joe gibbs has had lead rushers average over 4.5 yards a carry twice during his entire 16 year coaching career. even during gibbs first tenure there were plenty of running backs that would average over 4.5 yards a year, whereas most gibbs runningbacks had very low averages. im hoping now that gibbs is gone we can get away from this grinding running offense and actually use portis to the best of his abilities. people always debate whether portis had lost it or if he was injured. well he led the league in attempts last year and didnt end the season with any injuries. im hoping with the new WCO we run that portis can be as lethal as he was in denver.

i dont think hes lost a step, i think our offensive gameplan made his numbers look poor.

[stoney26]

Pretty compeling stats to back up your arguement. Maybe. We can only hope. You really dont like the shift button huh??

[HailSkinz1]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

[LiveStrongSkins]

Portis being in an offense thats more spread out suits him better. Not to mention his new perspective after losing his best friend and the fact that he is healthy and able to lift this off-season. I think he is going to be an absolute monster next season and come out on fire. A new coordiators best friend is an elite back like Portis.

[stoney26]

Portis being in an offense thats more spread out suits him better. Not to mention his new perspective after losing his best friend and the fact that he is healthy and able to lift this off-season. I think he is going to be an absolute monster next season and come out on fire. A new coordiators best friend is an elite back like Portis.

Portis is not elite.

[RAAZ227]

2006 (5-11) - ladell betts - 245 attempts, 1147 yards, 4.7 per carry

Betts is the man!

[RFK Lives]

Good post BLC. I think Portis (as well as the playcalling) was limited to running to one side this year due to the injuries on the line.

I am hoping Portis will be rested for next year. He didn't get too beat up, no glaring injuries to heal up but if he starts to stumble, it's time for Betts.

I think a fresh running back at the end of the year can be huge. I look at what the Patriots did with Maroney. I had him on my fantasy team this year so I got to watch him closely, closely do nothing all season. They used him sparsely and then unleashed him in the playoffs. I wonder if we could use Betts as more as a workhorse and then unleash a fresh Portis toward the end of the year.

[elkabong82]

From a purely statistical standpoint, it is very hard to argue that Gibbs' style did NOT hinder Portis. However, I think you have to look at the situation beyond the overall stats. For one, Gibbs helped Portis expand into an all-around RB. Instead of being just a speedy back, CP has all the elements you want in a RB, IMO. CP can still burn people with his speed, but he can also run right at you, grind out yards, he has evolved into arguably the best blocking RB in the league. CP can pass for a TD, he is still a receiving threat if used properly. Also, CP has the franchise records for rushing yards in a season, elevating him over other RBs in Gibbs' grind-it-out systems.

So while Gibbs system took away from CP's previous stas, the system did evolve him into a better, all-around back, IMO.

Now, I am also of the belief that CP has the potential to repeat, or at least come close to, his numbers in Denver. A greater emphasis on the pass game, which CP hasn't had since becoming a Skin, will free Portis up to actually get to the second level before having to shed a tackle (something that didn't happen very often this past season). Those doubting CP's receiving abilities need to take another look at his clips.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

i disagree, i think gibbs system is dated and weak. it took a 5 game miracle run against a string of weak opponents for us to get into the playoffs that year, where gibbs offense produced the worst post season numbers in a playoff win (and frankly, i cant imagine how much worse an offense could be, even in a loss). and 1500 for a franchise record isnt a big deal in my opinion, portis had already done that and more twice in denver two years in a row in the system were gonna be running now (or close to it) and he did it with far less carries.

the reason our rushing record was so low is exactly why i think gibbs hindered portis, his system is made for high attempts and low gains to wear defenses down, not homerun hitting running plays and 5.0+ averages.

[elkabong82]

Portis is not elite.

Really? His career stats thus far beg to differ.

[cronos190]

I read somewhere in this board that the WCO utilizes more of the 2 back system? If that's the case. We might get to see more of Portis & Betts on the field at the same time?

[S4L]

When you compare CP's stats in Denver to what his stats were here, it's obvious Gibbs' style did hinder him.

I admire the guy for sticking with it, bulking up and doing what he could to be a Gibbs' style runner. (ie. a ton of carries and low YPC) :logo:

[LiveStrongSkins]

Portis is not elite.

*Highest percetage of career touchdowns in nov/dec in NFL history

*Most rushing yards in NFL history to begin a career. (3 year span)

* Holds the all time single season Redskins record.

* Not even 27 yet

* One of the best in the NFL in pass protection

He's pretty elite to me. Watch what happens when he isnt running into brick walls and is in a more open attack.

[DCsportsfan53]

I think it did. For one thing, we were more obvious about our intent to run than most other teams. We ran it on first down at a higher rate than any other team. The passing game was always faltering, not taking the pressure off the running game. OL injuries hurt, too as Randy Thomas and his ability to pull is what really makes the running game work. Fabini and Kendall were atrocious in space all year. But I definitely think if the passing game improves and becomes more aggressive and the OL stays healthy, in a more modern scheme and play calling, I expect Portis' averages to back up around 5.0 per carry. There simply weren't many holes for him to run through this year.

[Aireskoi]

I think the mindset of Gibb's offense was to run when they know you are running. His backs take abuse from pounding it right at the stacked box. Other offenses will pass to set up the run, which abuses the back less. Higher YPC, but less carries.

I think Portis adjusted and gained weight for the pounding. He is a great back who is one tough dude. I have heard him called injury prone and I laugh. Who has carried the ball more in the last 6 years? Not many.

I am looking forward to seeing Portis run some of the plays that Brian Westbrook has been running. The idea is to spread you out and get the back into the open field. Portis is going to be a force. He has the hands to play the WCO and the power to still grind it out in December. Betts should be a great fit for the WCO also.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

From a purely statistical standpoint, it is very hard to argue that Gibbs' style did NOT hinder Portis. However, I think you have to look at the situation beyond the overall stats. For one, Gibbs helped Portis expand into an all-around RB. Instead of being just a speedy back, CP has all the elements you want in a RB, IMO. CP can still burn people with his speed, but he can also run right at you, grind out yards, he has evolved into arguably the best blocking RB in the league. CP can pass for a TD, he is still a receiving threat if used properly. Also, CP has the franchise records for rushing yards in a season, elevating him over other RBs in Gibbs' grind-it-out systems.

So while Gibbs system took away from CP's previous stas, the system did evolve him into a better, all-around back, IMO.

Now, I am also of the belief that CP has the potential to repeat, or at least come close to, his numbers in Denver. A greater emphasis on the pass game, which CP hasn't had since becoming a Skin, will free Portis up to actually get to the second level before having to shed a tackle (something that didn't happen very often this past season). Those doubting CP's receiving abilities need to take another look at his clips.

crazy, were on the same page again! have you been drinking?

but i agree in the long run that his time in this offense has toughend him up so to speak, so hopefully now that he is more of that complete running back, he can do some real damage. i really hope in this new offense he can bring himself back to elite status.

[RFK Lives]

*Highest percetage of career touchdowns in nov/dec in NFL history

*Most rushing yards in NFL history to begin a career. (3 year span)

* Holds the all time single season Redskins record.

* Not even 27 yet

* One of the best in the NFL in pass protection

He's pretty elite to me. Watch what happens when he isnt running into brick walls and is in a more open attack.

Good points, I just wish we could get away from the one I bolded. If Betts and Sellars could get better at this, it may extend Portis' career.

Hard to believe he is still that young.

[Stew]

Portis is not elite.

Portis is an elite back, Id still give him somewhere in the top ten, and thats after a few hard fought, injured seasons here in Washington. I hope Zorn sees Portis as a weapon and has a plan to shove him down other teams throats. Portis is the complete back. he has quickness, flat out speed, and excels where lots of other backs dont. He is one of the best blockers for a RB that I have ever seen, and he has incredible vision, Betts has neither good vision or the ability to block well. How many times has Betts just run the ball directly into the pile and just pushed for extra yardage. Portis sees seems crating and will make cuts for daylight before throwing himself into the pile. Im not trying to start another Portis vs. Betts thread, but saying Portis isnt elite is like saying Chad Johnson isnt elite. By the way, I hope we dont trade Portis for Johnson.

[Aireskoi]

I read somewhere in this board that the WCO utilizes more of the 2 back system? If that's the case. We might get to see more of Portis & Betts on the field at the same time?

That would be cool, but I think they mean fullback and RB. I think they definitely could design some red zone plays with these two in there (Betts and Portis), they can both catch well. Linebackers nightmare.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I think the mindset of Gibb's offense was to run when they know you are running. His backs take abuse from pounding it right at the stacked box. Other offenses will pass to set up the run, which abuses the back less. Higher YPC, but less carries.

I think Portis adjusted and gained weight for the pounding. He is a great back who is one tough dude. I have heard him called injury prone and I laugh. Who has carried the ball more in the last 6 years? Not many.

I am looking forward to seeing Portis run some of the plays that Brian Westbrook has been running. The idea is to spread you out and get the back into the open field. Portis is going to be a force. He has the hands to play the WCO and the power to still grind it out in December. Betts should be a great fit for the WCO also.

this is what im looking forward to as well. i see a guy like westbrook, great in space, shifty as hell, and has incredible averages. trouble with him is that he cant take abuse, and portis can and thats what excites me about the change in offensive philosophy. portis is everything westbrook wishes he was, but hes nowhere near as brittle. sans one season where he had some freak injuries, portis has been one of the most durable backs in the NFL.

[elkabong82]

i disagree, i think gibbs system is dated and weak. it took a 5 game miracle run against a string of weak opponents for us to get into the playoffs that year, where gibbs offense produced the worst post season numbers in a playoff win (and frankly, i cant imagine how much worse an offense could be, even in a loss). and 1500 for a franchise record isnt a big deal in my opinion, portis had already done that and more twice in denver two years in a row in the system were gonna be running now (or close to it) and he did it with far less carries.

the reason our rushing record was so low is exactly why i think gibbs hindered portis, his system is made for high attempts and low gains to wear defenses down, not homerun hitting running plays and 5.0+ averages.

Weak opponents in '05? 3 of those "weak opponents" were division rivals in the toughest division in football that year. One of those opponents won the NFC East division, and another missed the playoffs by one game.

The postseason win wasn't impressive as far as offensive production, but Brunell had been playing injured since the Giants game, and we were missing Thomas, not to mention Moss and Cooley were the only receiving threats. Tampa had the #1 defense that year, and we were limited on O due to injuries. The simple fact we were putting up 30+ points the last couple games, and then did that in the playoffs should tell you as much about the impact of injuries then.

1500 yards isn't a big deal? How many backs rushed for 1500 yards this season? Oh, that's right, none.

Yes Portis did more in Denver, but the fact he went to a new conference, in a new division, on a team with a completely different offensive and blocking scheme, and still put up a franchise record is pretty impressive.

I agree with you on Gibbs system being designed more for short yards and grinding it out.

[Aireskoi]

this is what im looking forward to as well. i see a guy like westbrook, great in space, shifty as hell, and has incredible averages. trouble with him is that he cant take abuse, and portis can and thats what excites me about the change in offensive philosophy. portis is everything westbrook wishes he was, but hes nowhere near as brittle. sans one season where he had some freak injuries, portis has been one of the most durable backs in the NFL.

I think Portis is a little more physical and Westbrook is a little shiftier. I am always impressed watching Westbrook though, he is an amazing back. He can break your ankles like Barry Sanders used to.

The more I think about it, the more I like the WCO. I just expect the offense to struggle for a while more. Starting over again.

[Old Bay]

I don't think it's necessarily his style, because it's not a zone blocking scheme that he excelled with in Denver. But I don't think it held him back either. This year he had the most carries and was 6th in the NFL in yardage. Even a 3.9 average isn't that bad, considering the injuries on the line.

[Smurf85]

Portis is not elite.

Well John Madden thinks different and I will take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

[Skins n' Bones]

this is what im looking forward to as well. i see a guy like westbrook, great in space, shifty as hell, and has incredible averages. trouble with him is that he cant take abuse, and portis can and thats what excites me about the change in offensive philosophy. portis is everything westbrook wishes he was, but hes nowhere near as brittle. sans one season where he had some freak injuries, portis has been one of the most durable backs in the NFL.

I agree. During the 4 game run, when he didn't have great rushing yardage, he was catching more passes, so his total yards were up there in more of a Westbrook type role. I also expect more of that.

And those that may be afraid that we will be too pass-happy in the WCO, remember that Alexander was the rushing leader a couple years ago (and had 3 1400+ yard years in a row). Zorn wasn't the coordinator, but he was there, so he should recognize the benefit of a high quality RB, no matter what system you're in. And Portis is better than Alexander.