Did Gibbs' style hinder Portis?

[ffxfinest]

Betts is the man!

Our record was 5-11. He's the man alright...

Portis will have better numbers if the offense looks more like what Denver runs...

[RedskinzOwnU]

Gibbs' style hindered the entire offense. No matter who is head coach next year, we're gonna see some things we didn't THINK we could do before.

[cmorina69]

Portis is not elite.

Neither are you, Mr NNT. CP= Monster

[Redskins4ever]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

Agreed. Clinton Portis had a good carry average in Gibbs system, especially in 2005 when he broke Stephen Davis rushing record. Plus his first carry as a Redskins resulted in a 64 yard TD. He had a run that long in Denver also.

[MikeBass]

I noticed during the end of the year (exempting the playoff game) that Portis had some moves. He looked good avoiding tackles and didn't try to play the power running game. He's not a power back, he's not Riggins and some fans in here need to stop living in the past.

You do not have to be Riggins nor a power back to be able to break tackles. A lot of it is about determination and the will to get that extra yardage.

Most of the tougher backs even today are not considered power backs but you often see them breaking through tacklers and getting the long run. Defenses are not going to give you anything and the holes you can drive a truck through are very rare. 90% of the time and it is going to be up to the runner to have what it takes to get the extra yards.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I think a lot of Portis' problems stemmed from Byner. I believe Byner altered Portis' run style and in doing so made him less dangerous as a home run hitter.

[JimmyConway]

I think a lot of Portis' problems stemmed from Byner. I believe Byner altered Portis' run style and in doing so made him less dangerous as a home run hitter.

I think Portis altered his own style.

I did think riding CP was a good idea but we definitely need to think about keeping him healthy and fresh. I'd like to aim for about 275-310 carries a year. With the rest of those carries becoming short throws (WCO) or plays for Betts.

IMO Portis will benefit the most from Zorn and the WCO. I'm confident we'll see him put up a better average and possibly more yards on less carries.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I don't think Portis altered his own running style. If you look at how Betts and even Sellers run, they both run in a similiar fashion. That leads me to believe that it's the coaching. Before contact they lean forward and lower their shoulders. For a fullback, that running style is fine. You run him in short yardage situations and leaning forward will undoubtedly garner you a couple of extra yards.

However, when you make a guy like Portis lean forward before contact, you limit his ablility to use his athleticism to break/avoid tackles and keep going. By having him lean forward you don't let him keep his legs under him to make the moves he is able to make. It's really evident if you look over his Denver days and watch his running style. He didn't lean forward near as much before contact. He make a lot of cuts and even spin moves and broke through a lot of would-be tackles that way. Contrary to popular belief, Portis didn't always have huge lanes in Denver. He made a lot happen on his own.

[chipwhich]

I think a lot of Portis' problems stemmed from Byner. I believe Byner altered Portis' run style and in doing so made him less dangerous as a home run hitter.

Nope, it was all Gibbs....talk about a waste of Portis primary talents.

[mvisit1]

Portis broke the Redskins single season rushing record under the Gibbs offensive system (2005). And Moss broke the Redskins single season yards receiving record (2005), so no, Gibbs did not hinder anyone. Had we stuck with the Gibbs system, we'd have been fine.

Hail,

H

NOT!

Gibbs' System: Get a lead 1st half and sit on it 2nd half.

Our record could have been even better this season if we called the same plays 2nd half that put us ahead going in at the end of the 1st. 3 runs up the middle and punt it back to the opposition is what kept oppenents close and led to all of those 4th quarter meltdowns. It's how we got to the 5-7 point of the season.

I'm not saying that Gibb's System is bad, I'm saying that it obviously did not work with our current personnel. He should have seen that this style of play was not suited to our personnel and changed it up after the 2nd time it lost us a game. Not the 7th.

Remember the Buffalo game? We have the lead. It's the 4th and we've already had the 2 minute warning. The Bills have NO MORE TIME OUTS. Run on 1st, run on 2nd. We have 3rd and 8. All we have to do is convert this 1st and then we can kneel out the clock and WIN!!! 3rd and 8...Guess what? Another run! You all remember the rest.

[Ty Garcia]

Portis is not elite.

So i am wondering who you think is elite and I think that Portis is top 4

[turbodiesel#44]

You do not have to be Riggins nor a power back to be able to break tackles. A lot of it is about determination and the will to get that extra yardage.

Most of the tougher backs even today are not considered power backs but you often see them breaking through tacklers and getting the long run. Defenses are not going to give you anything and the holes you can drive a truck through are very rare. 90% of the time and it is going to be up to the runner to have what it takes to get the extra yards.

As good of blocker that he is, Portis does not have the mass to plow through 280-300 lb lineman. He weighs 215lb +/-. His abilities are far leaning towards evasion in the open field.

Gibbs could always bet the farm on Riggo for 4th and ones. The odds were in his favor even on 4th and two. He gave up even trying to use CP on those type plays years ago. It just didn't work.

[MikeBass]

As good of blocker that he is, Portis does not have the mass to plow through 280-300 lb lineman. He weighs 215lb +/-. His abilities are far leaning towards evasion in the open field.

Gibbs could always bet the farm on Riggo for 4th and ones. The odds were in his favor even on 4th and two. He gave up even trying to use CP on those type plays years ago. It just didn't work.

With Power (momentum) equaling Mass times Velosity, with Portis coming from 5 yards out, with his size/speed, a D-lineman already being occupied by a O-lineman and Portis' ability to see a crease he should actually have the upper hand on the "280-300 lb linemen" on short yardage downs.

As far as the "open field" goes he has to get there first and then he should be facing guys of his own physical stature.

[turbodiesel#44]

With Power (momentum) equaling Mass times Velosity, with Portis coming from 5 yards out, with his size/speed, a D-lineman already being occupied by a O-lineman and Portis' ability to see a crease he should actually have the upper hand on the "280-300 lb linemen" on short yardage downs.

As far as the "open field" goes he has to get there first and then he should be facing guys of his own physical stature.

Well, if you could run with your feet planted, your scientific analysis would be correct. Unfortunately for CP, players are not clacker balls suspended by strings.

[dinzelwashington]

even ray charles could see it... gibbs its a man of the o-line.. he believes with a great o-line, he can get 3.5 yards per carry every series and get that first down. it clearly shows.. its not a chest match for him. the defense will know hes going to run, and he wil run run run.... thats how we lose.. once in a while he calls that play action, it works, but ahem someone overthrows it... but back to the hinder.. it is obvious gibbs is old school. its new school. that stuff dont work...anymore

[MumboSauce]

I think it hindered him somewhat..he made the best of it, but his skillset imo is better suited for a spread offense, with zone blocking and faster lineman that can get downfield to the next level. Only Randy Thomas can really do that with our line. Let him pick a gap and hit it, allowing cutback etc. Trying to make him a between the tackles guy 80% of the time isn't his game(just a figure, not sure how much he actually ran there)

[JimmyConway]

I don't think Portis altered his own running style. If you look at how Betts and even Sellers run, they both run in a similiar fashion. That leads me to believe that it's the coaching. Before contact they lean forward and lower their shoulders. For a fullback, that running style is fine. You run him in short yardage situations and leaning forward will undoubtedly garner you a couple of extra yards.

However, when you make a guy like Portis lean forward before contact, you limit his ablility to use his athleticism to break/avoid tackles and keep going. By having him lean forward you don't let him keep his legs under him to make the moves he is able to make. It's really evident if you look over his Denver days and watch his running style. He didn't lean forward near as much before contact. He make a lot of cuts and even spin moves and broke through a lot of would-be tackles that way. Contrary to popular belief, Portis didn't always have huge lanes in Denver. He made a lot happen on his own.

Good points. I guess we'll be able to find the answer this upcoming season with EB coming back. Let's hope it was Gibbs.

[ballin86]

yes

portis isn't riggins

[MikeBass]

Well, if you could run with your feet planted, your scientific analysis would be correct. Unfortunately for CP, players are not clacker balls suspended by strings.

Yeah OK, like scientist actually spent their time and knowledge because they wanted to really see what happens when "clacker balls" come together.

The only defense to Portis not being able to get necessary yardage is if that our O-line was not able to open up holes which would create mass1 (both the offensive and the defensive linemen) being far greater than mass2 (Portis alone)which is like Portis trying to run through 2 linemen and would send mass2 (Portis) in the opposite direction. If this is not the case, Portis either can't find holes created or he's not a strong enough runner to get past D-linemen in order to advance.

[Chris0894]

imo byner hindered portis...he got him running the same style he ran the ball rather than teaching him to run to his ability

[ddub52]

im surprised this didnt turn into a betts vs portis thread

[skins fan1010]

i dont think hes lost a step, i think our offensive gameplan made his numbers look poor.

Cracker, please.

[Truant]

Does Bugel play a role in this?

I believe that it all starts up front and while the coaching philosophy will dictate when and how much we run, I tend to place responsibility on the big guys up front.

I hope that Gibbs had the mind set of, let's just line up against you and out execute you, because that gives us hope for the future. Frankly, back in the day, we were better than most teams and we had to just play our game. With parity, that's not really a viable option anymore.

(response to other NFC East backs...)

Sure, Tiki and Westbrook break (broke) more than their share of tackles, but that's their game. If you get a shifty back into the secondary with some built up speed, they are going to make some big plays. If Portis hits the open field he can still make guys miss. Look at the dump off against the Bears or Dwight Smith getting embarrassed in Minn.

As far as running with power... Portis can be called out for a few things, but playing/running with too little aggression isn't one of them.

When was the last time we saw a massive hole behind this line? It seems like a freaking miracle to see a RB pick up 20+ yards for us on a carry. I don't think we've been surprising many teams and hopefully Zorn will bring in an attack that is less predictable.

Was it Gibbs' fault? Injuries hurt. The passing game didn't develop for many reasons. But I'm pretty certain that he put the handcuffs on Saunders and that proved to be a limiting factor for this offense.

[Clinton Portis # 26]

Made him a hell of a blocker, I'll give Gibbs that.

[Roborob132]

For me, regardless of what offense we use, PORTIS ran his buttocks off and gained over 1000 yards every year but one when he missed time due to injury. He is a complete back.