is it me? (receivers routes JC vs TC)

[Morneblade]

NO, it's just that TC has the timing down and is able to hit the receivers as they break. JC is still learning and is passing AFTER the receivers break...which is leading to blown opportunites and INTs.

Correct. I read/heard an interview with Todd about the offence. It's a timing passing game much like the one San Diego ran back in the late 70's/early 80's. The ball was supposed to be thrown before the reciever made his break. Todd said he had some trouble adjusting to it early in his time with K.C, saying how it "felt" like you were throwng the ball too early, it was actually on time. And if you threw the ball when it "felt" right, it was already too late. But you have also add into the fact that Moss is healthy and not getting double teamed on every play, guys like Thrash, Caldwell and McKardell have stepped up and ARE has proven to be a real threat. That and guys are not dropping 4-5 easy catches per game anymore.

[Om]

Not sure why this continues to be such a mystery to people. For as long as Saunders has been here, we've talked about how receivers are getting open, but the QB's haven't always been able to get them the ball in rhythm. It's been confirmed over and over by those who go to the games and have the opportunity to see the plays develop.

TC has been masterful at making quick reads and releasing not only on time, but accurately.

As far as JC, the idea that he hasn't made significant progress just seems silly. The man has come a LONG way, and is going through the same learning curve and growing pains in crunch time that almost every QB who has ever played the game encounters.

I have seen nothing from him that discourages me about his future. In fact, I've seen enough to be VERY excited about seeing him with another full offseason of work on the scheme under his belt, back behind an OL not missing half its parts and having to patch something together on the fly, with the benefit of a healthy lead RB again, and the benefit of a healthy WR corps again ... on a team that has found its' confidence and swagger again.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

So what do you guys think of Le Batard's quote? Personally, I'm on the fence with Campbell. Sometimes he'll have a great game, and other times he'll do something where I think he's good but doesn't have "it" (like throwing three game-killing picks in two games). I would like to think that he'll progress like Collins has, and maybe one day we'll have the opportunity to see his canon of an arm throwing accurate passes, but part of me says he might always have trouble doing that. Considering the stats he put up between last year and this year, it doesn't seem like he's progressed that much.

I'm going to have to say Le Batard is wrong on this point. Didn't Saunders himself say it takes 3 years in the system to fully excel at it?

While I like listening to Le Batard on the radio down here, he jumps the ship on a lot of things. He has been to quick to judge and doesn't always have all the facts.

[Art]

this isnt a "oMg ToDd Is sO mUcH bEttEr" thread so dont worry.

but my question is, is it me, or do receivers over the past 4 games seem more wide open than they did with jason? im not sure ive seen collins thread a pass into a tight spot over this stretch, it seems that every completion he makes, dudes are wide open, and i just dont remember it seeming that way when jason was in. maybe the playbook is opening more, maybe this is a "real" saunders offense vs the hybrid some thought we were running with campbell, who knows.

all i know is, im seeing our receivers blatantly wide open a lot now and im wondering does anyone else notice this, or am i just being insane?

I've noticed the same thing. I keep shaking my head wondering where all these open receivers have been. We do need to understand on plays LIKE that Collins to Moss double-move bomb, there have been MULTIPLE things LIKE that with Jason that were missed. Against Tampa, Buffalo early, Philly early, Green Bay all day and some other games with Campbell, we also had a fluent, easy running offense with wide open receivers too. The problem was they either dropped passes, were sometimes missed, or, worse, Campbell would throw an interception that would end the game and you'd forget how efficient and amazing the offense looked for PARTS of the game.

Last night the offense essentially was put away in the second half after that bomb. We're not complaining because we won big, they never came back, and we didn't have a bad ending. Same thing in Minnesota. We ran on a long third before our last touchdown, which was a run. It worked, so we remember ONLY the good, as we should.

[zoony]

It's funny how when Romo sits to pee takes over for Bledsoe, all of a sudden Witten, TO, Glenn, etc. all play much better.

It's funny how Randy Moss can't run routes in Oakland but is a perfectionist when Tom Brady is throwing to him.

If you watch TC, he is getting rid of the ball as the WR makes the break. i.e. when he's SUPPOSED to get rid of the ball.

That has been the knock on Campbell since day 1. And I've said it too many times in the past. JC waits for the receiver to get open, THEN he throws. That's not gonna cut it in Al Saunder's offense... or the NFL for that matter.

Also, TC is seeing the field much better than JC ever did. Anyone remember the replays throughout the season where we saw a wide open Moss or ARE streaking that Campbell missed entirely?

...

[Art]

Zoony,

You're partially right. Ramsey could NOT throw the ball until the receiver's route was fully developed and presented. Campbell CAN. Against Tampa he was on time and precise. Throwing well early. In fact, SOOOOOOO early, it led to that one undercut INT by Barber before the last INT.

What makes a QB elite is anticipation. The ability Collins has to throw so long before the route is developed is amazing -- and it's dangerous with his arm strength . Collins doesn't just throw as the cut's made. He throws steps before it is. Collins is clearly further ahead of Campbell in this area and as Collins has said in articles, it was constant drilling that got him to do that because it feels so unnatural. Campbell is still early in the drilling. He really did improve on that though as this year went on.

So while we clearly benefit from it with Collins, we don't know yet that Campbell can't do it.

[SearchHorizon]

A WR gets the greatest separation just after the WR makes his break.

If the QB waits just a bit too long, the defense closes in very fast.

[Bacon]

this isnt a "oMg ToDd Is sO mUcH bEttEr" thread so dont worry.

but my question is, is it me, or do receivers over the past 4 games seem more wide open than they did with jason? im not sure ive seen collins thread a pass into a tight spot over this stretch, it seems that every completion he makes, dudes are wide open, and i just dont remember it seeming that way when jason was in. maybe the playbook is opening more, maybe this is a "real" saunders offense vs the hybrid some thought we were running with campbell, who knows.

all i know is, im seeing our receivers blatantly wide open a lot now and im wondering does anyone else notice this, or am i just being insane?

No, I agree with you, actually. Moss totally BURNED that Cowpoke on the 4th quarter TD catch, Cooley was wide open on his TD catch against the Vikings, etc.

[zoony]

Zoony,

You're partially right. Ramsey could NOT throw the ball until the receiver's route was fully developed and presented. Campbell CAN. Against Tampa he was on time and precise. Throwing well early. In fact, SOOOOOOO early, it led to that one undercut INT by Barber before the last INT.

What makes a QB elite is anticipation. The ability Collins has to throw so long before the route is developed is amazing -- and it's dangerous with his arm strength . Collins doesn't just throw as the cut's made. He throws steps before it is. Collins is clearly further ahead of Campbell in this area and as Collins has said in articles, it was constant drilling that got him to do that because it feels so unnatural. Campbell is still early in the drilling. He really did improve on that though as this year went on.

So while we clearly benefit from it with Collins, we don't know yet that Campbell can't do it.

For the record, I'm not saying Campbell can't do it... just that he hasn't so far. And you're right, there have been flashes... but nothing resembling any type of consistency.

Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to see Campbell develop this part of his game. Because I think he's there in most other areas. Also, he needs to see the field better, but I think that just comes with more experience

[SearchHorizon]

It's funny how Randy Moss can't run routes in Oakland but is a perfectionist when Tom Brady is throwing to him.

This is a very different case.

The success that R Moss has is mainly predicated on his speed.

The QB in this case has a much easier job, because only thing the QB has to see is the WR beating out the CB and the safety. Most people are so in love with Brady that they don't understand this.

[Art McDonough]

Most NFL players will tell you the hardest adjustment they have to make coming out of college is the speed of the game at the pro level. That's what I think JC lacks at the QB position right now. He's slow to make decisions, slow in his reads, slow in his release, and to top it off, I hear he telegraphs his throws. The problem for Gibbs next year is that JC can't improve in any of those areas sitting on the bench, yet is the offense well served without the best executing QB on the field? That appears to be TC.

[Gigantor]

So while we clearly benefit from it with Collins, we don't know yet that Campbell can't do it.

Art, that also means that we don't know that Campbell CAN do it, atleast consistently. So how is it that many here conclude that JC is "the future"?

It seems premature to be making such claims.

[HigSkin]

TC is throwing to a spot and JC is throwing to a receiver!

[thehogs]

Art, that also means that we don't know that Campbell CAN do it, atleast consistently. So how is it that many here conclude that JC is "the future"?

It seems premature to be making such claims.

Have to agree with this. In other circumstances we would probably be looking at a dead-end season but with the expectation that JC will be better next year etc. Collins has laid down a very definite line in the sand that JC has still to cross. Maybe Collins wont maintain it over time but we cant get away from what he has shown the team can do when it clicks. JC could have a problem next year if some of the issues this year arent ironed out (and if Collins keeps winning!). A winning QB and the play-offs - when did we last have such a 'problem' on our hands!

[DanDan]

You can bet Jason is getting a big dose of timing while watching all this.

I have no doubt he really wants to be the Redskins QB for several years.

Standing over on the sideline and watching someone hit the same receivers you were missing has really got to be HUGE for Jason.

There are no if's or an's here. He's doing it with the same players and scheme you weren't getting it done with. Granted on a few occasions they haven't dropped a dead center pass but this is still the same crowd you were playing with.

No doubt in my mind that Jason is over there listening to the plays being called in and feeling that rythem he needs to have.

If he isn't he's not going to have a starting job long next year.

It is true the NFL stands for NOT FOR LONG and now that is pretty obvious we have the players to make it work they won't give him forever to get it right.

I think Jason is taking a HUGE learning lesson with all this and will be ready to play next year or if he somehow is called later this year.

DanDan :helmet:

[GOSKN5]

the difference is that when TC hits the guys they are open... JC hadnt gotten the timing down yet... he was a split second late on a lot of throws... he was getting it to them after their breaks...

this will get better with time... Jason will get it worked out..

[JWB]

The Dan "Laid a terd" answer is the most rediculous post of the year! I am not even going to respond to it. The guy is such a jerk.

Here are my thoughts:

- TC knows the system

- TC knows when to throw the ball (10 years of experience)

- TC knows how to go thru the progressions

- TC knows where the secondary receivers are instead of trying to find them, then look to see where the defenders are and then to think if he should throw or not

- Defenses are not blitzing as often because he will pick them apart

- Defenses are playing back which is opening the way for the running game

- Receivers are confident that they will get the ball if they are open

- TC is getting all 700 pages because he knows all 700 pages

As Jason gains more experience over the off season, he too will be able to master this offense. Just like Warner , Green and now Collins

[skinsfan3880]

I agree with the fact T.C. has a faster release and is more steeped in the offense. i think he needs consideration for the gig next year especially if he gets us past the divisonal round of the playoffs.

[Touchdown Redskins]

Despite my prior post on being on the fence about JC, he has shown that he can get the ball to receivers well enough. I think a bad case of the drops was hurting JC's statline earlier in the year, and now the receivers aren't dropping balls that often. This brings up another point: we all say TC has a much weaker arm than JC, but is there something to be said about TC throwing a much more "catchable" ball? Do you think the Skins receivers have a hard time catching JC's bullets, especially after they were catching softer passes from Brunell for a while there?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Despite my prior post on being on the fence about JC, he has shown that he can get the ball to receivers well enough. I think a bad case of the drops was hurting JC's statline earlier in the year, and now the receivers aren't dropping balls that often. This brings up another point: we all say TC has a much weaker arm than JC, but is there something to be said about TC throwing a much more "catchable" ball? Do you think the Skins receivers have a hard time catching JC's bullets, especially after they were catching softer passes from Brunell for a while there?

if thats the case we need new receivers. QB is supposed to rocket the ball in there, these guys are paid millions to be able to catch the ball. if our guys are accustomed to catching floating brunell ducks, we need better receivers.

i doubt this is the case however.

[skins/hokie_fan]

:applause:

I just think it comes down to familiarity with the offense. One thing I noticed yesterday at the stadium was the way Collins was anticipating the breaks and throwing the ball at the perfect time. On plays where he would hit Moss on a square in, he would look his way, wait for the exact time he made his break, and throw the ball before the defender could catch up. I think Campbell lacks that sort of decisiveness and might tend to throw the ball a little later when the receiver either runs into more coverage or allows the DB to catch up.