Bush now willing to compromise on S-CHIP program

[Sarge]

Would you rather the tax payers share the burden of 6.00 for antibiotics and a fifty dollar doctor visit or a six thousand dollar emergency room visit and a fifty thousand dollar stay and surgery?

No, I'd rather the parents pay for that as well

[twa]

I think the answer will become obvious. One could argue that it's unreasonable (and I'm sure many do) that all children get a free education, but that's generally accepted now and understood to be for the best for all. A healthier population is of benefit similarly. More, early prevention, possible with insurance, costs a heck of a lot less than emergency care which is already mandatory.

Would you rather the tax payers share the burden of 6.00 for antibiotics and a fifty dollar doctor visit or a six thousand dollar emergency room visit and a fifty thousand dollar stay and surgery?

My problem is it will be LIKE the education system,bloated,ineffective and another means of government interference in our lives.

Six dollar antibiotics and a 50.00 office visit on a government funded plan will be triple that. :2cents:

There are many ways preventative care can be made available cheaper and most likely more effectively....but preventive care is not really the goal,national health insurance is.

[Burgold]

I believe a healthier gene pool is of more value than a healthy population.

You know the one common trait the following have?

Mozart

Edison

Einstein

Martha Graham

Van Gogh

Hawking

Beethoven

by today's definition every single one of them would be considered disabled. Clearing away the gene pool from our riff raff will also eliminate a lot of genius and possibility from the world. Now, if you want to argue that without the struggle and obstacles they had to overcome that they would not have changed the world, I'd agree with you. But the cleaning of the gene pool might lead to more stagnation, than progress.

Edison was not only poor, he was told that he was too stupid to go to school because of his hearing disability. He was kicked out too at an early age.

Einstein had a well documented Math disability.

They discovered Van Gogh had a brain abnormality that made him both violent and also may have made him see the world through a greener tint which may explain his color useage.

Mozart at least had ADD and a number of othe issues.

Hawking is a paraplegic.

Martha Graham had a physical disability and by compensating for that helped to develop modern dance.

[Burgold]

My problem is it will be LIKE the education system,bloated,ineffective and another means of government interference in our lives.

Six dollar antibiotics and a 50.00 office visit on a government funded plan will be triple that. :2cents:

There are many ways preventative care can be made available cheaper and most likely more effectively....but preventive care is not really the goal,national health insurance is.

No, I'd rather the parents pay for that as well

Triple is still a helluva savings especially since we now must pay for emergency care regardless.

I disagree. I think the real goal is global health care, which hopefully has a good preventative component. My idealistic side wants that too for all Americans. My pragmatic side shares your concern about whether we can develop a system that does it well or effeciently. My guess is that it will clumbsy as heck and so bloated with confusing paperwork that the people who most needed the services will be thwarted.

[MrWill]

You know the one common trait the following have?

Mozart

Edison

Einstein

Martha Graham

Van Gogh

Hawking

Beethoven

by today's definition every single one of them would be considered disabled. Clearing away the gene pool from our riff raff will also eliminate a lot of genius and possibility from the world. Now, if you want to argue that without the struggle and obstacles they had to overcome that they would not have changed the world, I'd agree with you. But the cleaning of the gene pool might lead to more stagnation, than progress.

Edison was not only poor, he was told that he was too stupid to go to school because of his hearing disability. He was kicked out too at an early age.

Einstein had a well documented Math disability.

They discovered Van Gogh had a brain abnormality that made him both violent and also may have made him see the world through a greener tint which may explain his color useage.

Mozart at least had ADD and a number of othe issues.

Hawking is a paraplegic.

Martha Graham had a physical disability and by compensating for that helped to develop modern dance.

You, my friend, are talking about productive members of society......who, despite their physical deficiencies persevered and made history. Now take a look at the number of poor, non-participating adults/parents of three or four kids living off the government. THIS is poisoning the gene pool. THIS is a scourge on society. On average, how many children do parents on welfare have? And those who pay every dime needed to support their families, how many children do they have? Many of us live near big cities, and it is incredibly evident that this is going on. Why are there millions of poor people concentrated in the same areas of the country? I'll tell you why.....b/c the services are there. Please don't lump historical icons with the miles and miles of decadence that we see in this country.

[PokerPacker]

why does everyone seem to think that america needs to become a socialist country like european countries? if people want universal health care and other big social programs so much, why don't they just move to one of those socialist countries across the pond? i just want my america where the government stays out of my house and out of my wallet.

[PokerPacker]

You, my friend, are talking about productive members of society......who, despite their physical deficiencies persevered and made history. Now take a look at the number of poor, non-participating adults/parents of three or four kids living off the government. THIS is poisoning the gene pool. THIS is a scourge on society. On average, how many children do parents on welfare have? And those who pay every dime needed to support their families, how many children do they have? Many of us live near big cities, and it is incredibly evident that this is going on. Why are there millions of poor people concentrated in the same areas of the country? I'll tell you why.....b/c the services are there. Please don't lump historical icons with the miles and miles of decadence that we see in this country.

have you seen the movie Idiocracy? its a comedy by Mike Judge (Office Space, beavis and butthead, king of the hill) about the future where america has been reduced to bumbling mass of idiots because stupid people were reproducing like rabbits while everyone else restrained themselves. eventually all that was left in the country were stupid people.

[Burgold]

You, my friend, are talking about productive members of society......who, despite their physical deficiencies persevered and made history.

But how do you know who will emerge or from where... or are you saying that throwing away the diamonds is not worth working the ruff. I believe that great potential can emerge from anywhere... even amongst the downtrodden and forgotten.

Additionally, the genepool line of thinking scares me just because... 60 years ago, it was the argument of WWII (I don't think that's what you are saying) and 30 years ago, we practiced eugenics right here in the U.S.

I don't like the superiority argument. A) I don't believe it and I think it takes us down a very dark path.

[twa]

i just want my america where the government stays out of my house and out of my wallet.

Good luck with that...bend over and lube up

Personal responsibility is out of style,big brother government is gonna take care of all your needs and money.

[Burgold]

Good luck with that...bend over and lube up

Personal responsibility is out of style,big brother government is gonna take care of all your needs and money.

Meh... it's all on the emphasis of words.

Liberals emphasize United

Conservatives emphasize States

Shared responibility is more out of fashion than me-ism. I see me-ism being the primary drive of most.

Personal responsibility is only somewhat out of fashion. Greed ensures that it never is totally out.

[twa]

If you think greed figures into personal responsibility we OBVIOUSLY differ on the definition :laugh:

[Burgold]

I do or rather it is a motivator for people to be responsible. A number of people take responsibility in their job not solely for the purpose of doing a good job, but because they care about their reputation. They care about their reputation because they want others to appreciate their work. They want others to appreciate their good work because they want to get more work or keep working. They want to keep working because they want to satisfy their other needs.

Personal Responsibility is sometimes intrinsic, but often can be boiled down to wanting to meet an extrinsic goals or desires.

[MrWill]

have you seen the movie Idiocracy? its a comedy by Mike Judge (Office Space, beavis and butthead, king of the hill) about the future where america has been reduced to bumbling mass of idiots because stupid people were reproducing like rabbits while everyone else restrained themselves. eventually all that was left in the country were stupid people.

I did see it. It was the first comedy I had ever seen that might actually come to pass. What the narrator details at the beginning of the movie, is EXACTLY what is happening right now. 'Another kid?! I thought you were on birth control or some ****!'

[MrWill]

But how do you know who will emerge or from where... or are you saying that throwing away the diamonds is not worth working the ruff. I believe that great potential can emerge from anywhere... even amongst the downtrodden and forgotten.

Additionally, the genepool line of thinking scares me just because... 60 years ago, it was the argument of WWII (I don't think that's what you are saying) and 30 years ago, we practiced eugenics right here in the U.S.

I don't like the superiority argument. A) I don't believe it and I think it takes us down a very dark path.

I can tell you this. For every 1 person that comes from a family with role models that leach from the government, and are lazy, but still find a way to make a difference.......there will be 1,000 (conservative estimate) that make a difference coming from a family that instills the value of an honest days work for an honest days pay. Children who a) have the genetic makeup of their societally dependent (unfit) parents, and grow up seeing that they can take the easy road to survival (which our government happily offers), are at an extreme disadvantage....and will likely perish if their support system is taken away. This is survival of the fittest. The Lance Armstrongs of the world FIND A WAY to survive.

[PokerPacker]

I can tell you this. For every 1 person that comes from a family with role models that leach from the government, and are lazy, but still find a way to make a difference.......there will be 1,000 (conservative estimate) that make a difference coming from a family that instills the value of an honest days work for an honest days pay. Children who a) have the genetic makeup of their societally dependent (unfit) parents, and grow up seeing that they can take the easy road to survival (which our government happily offers), are at an extreme disadvantage....and will likely perish if their support system is taken away. This is survival of the fittest. The Lance Armstrongs of the world FIND A WAY to survive.

exactly, the ones that do grow up to become functional members contributing to society are the ones that overcome the obstacles set before them without help.

[Fergasun]

Don't worry... the more informed people who are against socialistic programs like this and don't buy into the BS all these liberal rags talk about with "women and children hurt worst"... the more we'll be able to grasp control away from the Democrats and Republicans when the time comes...

Taking care of other people's children is okay... but at some point it gets ridiculous. I'm all for taking care of them enough so that they won't be spreading dangerous diseases... but let's just face it, our government will become insolvent if these "built on the taxpayer mandates" continue. If they could do it in the land of fairytales and make believe where I didn't pay a shiny dime more than I do now... great... but everyone should have to not pay a shiny dime more.

I'm sure there are some government programs that can be cut the f' back to pay for this... why can't the government cut some of their failing entitlement programs? This is BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS... always expand never contract BS BS BS BS BS... bribes to poor people to get in office BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS... BS... Go Redskins!

[Burgold]

Well... just to nitpicky :laugh:

You can't tell me this... you can predict that or guess it... but, I don't think that we have records recording people's worth and effort on a quantifiable scale anywhere. Now, if we're talking about historically important achievers. The ratio of those amongst the rich and prosperous are also exceedingly low. There just aren't that many world changers out there?

However, if you are talking about people who try to work hard and do what they can to make a better life for them and their loved ones... I think you are basing your assumptions on stereotypes. There are far more busting their butts trying to figure out a way to make it, than simply lying on the sofa sorting crack and waiting for that welfare check.

Just ask yourself, does Paris Hilton contributes more to society than a junkie? (The answer is yes, because Paris keeps all those paparazi, psuedo journalists, and other industries alive by her antics... but certainly not by the sweat of her brow or the inspiration from her noggin'

[Sarge]

Here' a way to gauge response and willingness to help the poor children.

Make it a voluntary payroll deduction

Who here, instead of paying for this via taxes, is willing to write a check every month for say, 50 bucks?

Don't lie

I, for one, am out

[Burgold]

I've done it before, so I guess I'm in. Well, to be completely forthright, it was a company pooling of resources and I got to write it off, but yes, I have voluntarily given like that.

[Teller]

I've done it before, so I guess I'm in. Well, to be completely forthright, it was a company pooling of resources and I got to write it off, but yes, I have voluntarily given like that.

I think we've all given to causes we support, Burg. And personally, I think that's part of the beauty of the American people. We're thoughtful and generous, and when we have extra resources we can share, we take the initiative on our own to do it.

But to answer Sarge's question, count me out. My charity should be my choice.

[MrWill]

Well... just to nitpicky :laugh:

You can't tell me this... you can predict that or guess it... but, I don't think that we have records recording people's worth and effort on a quantifiable scale anywhere. Now, if we're talking about historically important achievers. The ratio of those amongst the rich and prosperous are also exceedingly low. There just aren't that many world changers out there?

We may not be able to quantify it......but you and I both know it is true, whether or not we choose to admit it. Those who work harder, have a greater chance at survival. This is true for you and I, just as it is true for a ****roach in a rundown apartment complex. The only difference is that the ****roach can't apply for government services because they are too lazy to hunt for scraps.

However, if you are talking about people who try to work hard and do what they can to make a better life for them and their loved ones... I think you are basing your assumptions on stereotypes. There are far more busting their butts trying to figure out a way to make it, than simply lying on the sofa sorting crack and waiting for that welfare check.

I think you are grossly underestimating how many people in this country have habitually failed to understand the value of working to survive and therefore become hustlers rather than workers. Some take disability insurance despite their clear ability to be productive in some way......some await their welfare checks every month while pumping out child after child that they cannot provide for. Certainly many of them always have excuses, and place blame for their situations (like, 'I'm a minority, so I don't get the same opportunities'...etc, etc). However, one thing rings true always.....everyone has a chance in this life from the start. No matter where you come from, you have access to public education, and a chance to continue your education and better your situation.

Just ask yourself, does Paris Hilton contributes more to society than a junkie? (The answer is yes, because Paris keeps all those paparazi, psuedo journalists, and other industries alive by her antics... but certainly not by the sweat of her brow or the inspiration from her noggin'

Paris Hilton may be dumb as a rock......but she found her niche, and therefore is a survivor for the time being. How long that lasts for her is anyone's guess.

[twa]

I, for one, am out

As should be your right. :2cents:

I on average give much more than you requested(not to the friggin government though) both in money and services directly to those in need.

I like seeing the benefits firsthand and have had the benefit of others provide a helping hand to my family in times of need.

However it is a personal choice based on both seeing a need and repaying kindness from others....Not a mandate from the Feds.

[MrWill]

Here is a nice example for all of you to consider. I have been working since I was 15 years old. My estimated Social Security benefits, should something happen to me which would prevent me from working, are at about 1500$ per month. Would it make sense to you all if I found a psychiatrist, told him/her that I am depressed and can't work anymore (anyone can do this by the way), and then leached from SSI for the rest of my days while sitting on the couch watching Jerry Springer? This is something that I could legitimately do in this society. Why do I not make that decision? I have pride. I WANT to be a productive member of society. I say this knowing full well that there will be no SSI for me when I retire. So, pardon me if I do not share in the pity for the 'downtrodden' that seems to be prevalent in this thread.

[Burgold]

We may not be able to quantify it......but you and I both know it is true, whether or not we choose to admit it. Those who work harder, have a greater chance at survival. This is true for you and I, just as it is true for a ****roach in a rundown apartment complex. The only difference is that the ****roach can't apply for government services because they are too lazy to hunt for scraps.

I honestly think it depends on what you mean by working harder. A lawyer may work 14 hour days constantly, but is he working harder than a miner? Does an Washington Redskin really work harder than a Marine serving in Iraq? Does Paris Hilton work harder than the guy cleaning up at McDonalds?

Many of the poor work very hard all the time with practically no reward (at least financially) While I agree that each of us starts out equally, the opportunities, networks, and realities become very different, very quickly.

The quality of education in a very poor area is worse. The nutrition is often worse. The network of people to learn and be inspired by is different. All these impact how you are able to function and attack the world. Studies have proven, if you are hungry you do worse in school. I suspect the same goes if you are weak from illness.

Can that be overcome? Sure. I gave a list of world changers and geniuses, but the playing field is nowhere close to even. Should it be. Probably not. There is no such thing as equal or fair, but we can make it fairer.

I was fortunate enough to grow up in a very loving middle class home. That gave me some advantages that I do not take for granted. Sarge's point is more honest. He's cheap and wants to keep his money for himself (sorry, Sarge) He doesn't see his fiscal responsibilitiy extending outwards.

I just don't believe if we were able to look at every member of the "poor" we would find the majority being leeches.

[Larry]

Where in the article does it say this is ONLY for disabled and veterans? It doesn't.

It's right next to the part that says it's ONLY a reward for parents who deserve what they get because of their bad decisions.

Aren't blanket declarations of the poster's opinion as proven, universal facts great?