Larry Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I swear, dude. If you're really 40 years old and feel the need for name calling when someone disagrees with your position, it's time for some SERIOUS self-evaluation. Says the guy who's entire position consists of labeling all poor people as lazy idiots who deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Says the guy who's entire position consists of labeling all poor people as lazy idiots who deserve it. If you have a child that you don't intend to, and that you can't afford, you're pretty stupid, yes. Without even thinking about it I can think of at least 5 affordable ways to prevent it. They're not difficult either, even if you're not the sharpest tool in the drawer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I honestly think it depends on what you mean by working harder. A lawyer may work 14 hour days constantly, but is he working harder than a miner? Does an Washington Redskin really work harder than a Marine serving in Iraq? Does Paris Hilton work harder than the guy cleaning up at McDonalds?Many of the poor work very hard all the time with practically no reward (at least financially) While I agree that each of us starts out equally, the opportunities, networks, and realities become very different, very quickly. The quality of education in a very poor area is worse. The nutrition is often worse. The network of people to learn and be inspired by is different. All these impact how you are able to function and attack the world. Studies have proven, if you are hungry you do worse in school. I suspect the same goes if you are weak from illness. Can that be overcome? Sure. I gave a list of world changers and geniuses, but the playing field is nowhere close to even. Should it be. Probably not. There is no such thing as equal or fair, but we can make it fairer. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a very loving middle class home. That gave me some advantages that I do not take for granted. Sarge's point is more honest. He's cheap and wants to keep his money for himself (sorry, Sarge) He doesn't see his fiscal responsibilitiy extending outwards. I just don't believe if we were able to look at every member of the "poor" we would find the majority being leeches. First of all, when I say 'working harder' I am taking into account the work that is done leading up to your career path. You can bet that lawyer worked his *** off getting to where he is now. I did not say that the harder you work, the more money you make however. One thing is for sure though....that McDonalds worker is earning a pay check.....and the woman he has children with is hopefully doing the same. In that set of circumstances, the children are covered by a slew of benefits that boost this family's survivability. For example, due to the low income, these kids will go to college basically for free. schools offer free/reduced price lunch. There is free day care, and section 8 housing. These are services I agree with, when the parents are contributing. But, I can assure you, this is not the most common case representing what is going on. On the other hand, the weight of ALL services is on our middle class shoulders. My kids will get NO financial aid outside of loans.....I pay huge day care bills......and my tax money goes to support poor families whether there are contributing members or not. What you seem to want to do here is disregard the LARGE percentage of the poor that DO take advantage.......then whimper and cry for the few poor families that are contributors to society. You say that not all school systems have equal education. Well, then, that means it is easier to rise to the top of your class by outworking your classmates. In this day and age we have even dumbed down the requirements to graduate with that wonderful NCLB act. This is founded on the idea that EVERYONE should have the opportunity to go to college (yikes). So, what do we do? We give 'Individual Education Plans' which essentially put children on an uneven playing field with respect to where they actually stand from an intelligence standpoint. All of these things weaken our society, and yes, poison the gene pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 It's right next to the part that says it's ONLY a reward for parents who deserve what they get because of their bad decisions. Aren't blanket declarations of the poster's opinion as proven, universal facts great? OK....so your position is to have a blanket law that not only helps the poor families that contribute to society.....but, also gives more of our money to those who do not contribute? You know, at one time I thought of myself as more democrat than republican. But, now, I can finally see the intense stupidity of both sides. The point is that we shouldn't jut be indiscriminantly throwing money to the poor. There should be requirements. People should be EARNING the handout in some way. A poor family where both parents work TAX PAYING jobs....help them out with my money. But, not EVERYONE that falls into that financial bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 This isn't about punishing bad parents, this is about guaranteeing that children have health coverage, something their parents can't/won't provide for them. But at who's expense? Those of us who pay taxes and provide for our own kids I presume? This will do nothing to discourage more out of wedlock births exasperating the problem in years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Are you really asking someone to prove that taking care of the country's children is good for the country? I am stating that IMO enlarging the welfare systems is not good for the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 But at who's expense? Those of us who pay taxes and provide for our own kids I presume? This will do nothing to discourage more out of wedlock births exasperating the problem in years to come. Unfortunately, this is all set in motion and can't be stopped. If all services were to simply halt right now, the homeless population would be astronomical, and people would be dying in the streets in record number. It is very much like feeding birds to the point where they stop flying south for the winter. Stop feeding them in mid-winter, and they are dead. This country is a mess, and anyone who disagrees.......well........there is no point in debating with a moron I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I don't see many check writers here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I agree that this country is a mess. I actually also really like your bird analogy. I think what it boils down to is hope and empathy versus logic. Spock would agree with you, McCoy would not. Kirk would probably side with the children. :geek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Additionally, can anyone name just ONE government program that works well? ANd what makes anyone think this will be so much better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 School lunch program seems to work pretty well. Marines work pretty well (don't know if you'd call them a program, but they're a government entity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I agree that this country is a mess. I actually also really like your bird analogy. I think what it boils down to is hope and empathy versus logic.Spock would agree with you, McCoy would not. Kirk would probably side with the children. :geek: LOL....I do see where you are coming from. My wife worked for homeless service up here in MA for years. We would debate about this all the time. And, I know, her side always boiled down to having compassion. I, on the other hand, am more interested in improving society as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Unfortunately, this is all set in motion and can't be stopped. If all services were to simply halt right now, the homeless population would be astronomical, and people would be dying in the streets in record number. It is very much like feeding birds to the point where they stop flying south for the winter. Stop feeding them in mid-winter, and they are dead. This country is a mess, and anyone who disagrees.......well........there is no point in debating with a moron I guess. I agree 100% on this. Nothing can change overnight, but instead of more big government (tax payer) solutions IMHO we need to go the opposite way to better privatize health care which through increased competition will bring down the cost of health care down to make it more affordable to all. One example that comes to mind is the laser eye surgery. It is one of the few procedures not covered by most insurance companies so folks that elect to get this procedure are paying out of their pocket vice the govt or the insurance company paying for it. Notice the prices for laser eye surgery keep falling while most other healthcare (paid for by government and big insurance companies) are skyrocketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I agree 100% on this. Nothing can change overnight, but instead of more big government (tax payer) solutions IMHO we need to go the opposite way to better privatize health care which through increased competition will bring down the cost of health care down to make it more affordable to all. One example that comes to mind is the laser eye surgery. It is one of the few procedures not covered by most insurance companies so folks that elect to get this procedure are paying out of their pocket vice the govt or the insurance company paying for it. Notice the prices for laser eye surgery keep falling while most other healthcare (paid for by government and big insurance companies) are skyrocketing. This is EXACTLY what needs to be done. However, who do you think has more clout with the politicians......health care officials, or the average joe who can barely afford insurance, let alone laser eye surgery. To be honest, I think the country needs to be saved from the politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 LOL....I do see where you are coming from. My wife worked for homeless service up here in MA for years. We would debate about this all the time. And, I know, her side always boiled down to having compassion. I, on the other hand, am more interested in improving society as a whole. i dunno, even though spock was logical and all, he wasn't very good with understanding primal instinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 This is EXACTLY what needs to be done. However, who do you think has more clout with the politicians......health care officials, or the average joe who can barely afford insurance, let alone laser eye surgery. To be honest, I think the country needs to be saved from the politicians. I agree, what we need are some real LEADERS in congress, and the presidency. Not politicians that continue to pander to the people now to get elected/re-elected putting this country deeper and deeper in debt. I'm not holding my breath for this to happen anytime soon if ever though.:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I agree, what we need are some real LEADERS in congress, and the presidency. Not politicians that continue to pander to the people now to get elected/re-elected putting this country deeper and deeper in debt.I'm not holding my breath for this to happen anytime soon if ever though.:doh: Mark my words......the only way this happens is with a revolution. However, we are nowhere near the critical mass that would be required for such an endeavor. In the beginning, people were interested in what was best for the country.......now it is about what is best for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Mark my words......the only way this happens is with a revolution. However, we are nowhere near the critical mass that would be required for such an endeavor. In the beginning, people were interested in what was best for the country.......now it is about what is best for ourselves. God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Fantastic quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskingluvr Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 No retired vet is without health care. Period. No vet on disabilty is without health care either That is not true sarge. IN Va and Md your statement is correct, otuside of there and it is mostly false. The disabled individual gets medicare which still leaves the person with a huge bill to pay. Their kids and spouses used to qualify for the program Bush is describing or one like it, but due to change in benefit amounts and maximum income amounts for those people they WERE left without healthcare. If they live near a veterans hospital they can get emergency care, but not their kids or spouses. Bush isnt a socialist he is just diong the responsible thing. I personally know alot of folks who were disabled in service or as contractors for the DOD who have spent the entire last year with no insurance. As well folks who were either born with disabilities or were injured and disabled thru any means are in teh same and an even worse situation, they don't even get to use the VA hospital, neither do the ex contractors. Folks on disability qualify for medicare, part A sux and leves you with bills anyway might as well not have it, part B costs $70/mo, almost what quality health insurance costs and most cannot afoord it, and if they can afford it the coverage still leaves them with huge bills. Having worked in hospitals I have seen the papers they have to sign to pay up for what medicare won't cover before they are allowed to be admitted for emergency care. So not to insult you, but your information is a little lacking there sarge, altho on most topics I heartily agree with your viewpoints on this one I dont becuz I have seen the reality those families have to endure. As for the poor who just won't work, that's a seperate issue to me and not the one Bush is trying to cover. He knows that group who has faithfully served or who r disabled is out there and he is looking out for them, if some folks take advantage of that that is another issue. Their abuse of the system does not justify hanging good folks out to dry. Here in Pr is a large number of vets from nam and also disabled folks from industrial accidents who were born stateside, unless they are first veterans and second can travel to a veteran's hospital, they have no care. Alot of nam vets came here after the treatment they got stateside and just never left. I guess the bags of dog crap and spit still affect them inside and they dont wanna go back. Right now none of their kids have insurance. Many of them have lost limbs and ability to function. They are under almost every bridge trying to panhandle for money to pay for medical care. But hey screw them. Let's use the money instead for weathy children of minorities to get master's degrees so they can be rich and insult those people. If you feel my insults were immature, then perhaps I might suggest your heart is hard towards those who are the victims of the whiney beetchesand their college educations. You certainly seem to have no problem insulting me or people groups you don't even know a thing about.(that isn't directted at you sarge but towards the gentlemen who feels my comments were immature or rude). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskingluvr Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Also, imo, gov. subsidized education loans should go before health benefits for folks, if our taxes won't cover it or we don't wanna pay it. That system is more corrupt and wasteful than the health care system. Why should I pay for your kids to attend college and get master's degrees when there r kids out there without basic heealth care needs met???? So I recommend cutting ALL governement student loans, subsidies, and grants beyond high school level. Let's make it really fair, and so the fittest really survive. If that's how u wanna play it. I bet half the whiners in here will have to forfeit their college degrees and their kids as well in that scenario, which means they won't be able to afford their kids anymore so they should lose them to the government. By the way, paying for a kid's health care costs a thousand or two a year, putting them into a home or foster care costs about $350k a yr per kid. Most of that money corrupt social program overseers and lawyers get, who never even say hi to the kid. And the kid suffers the lifelong trauma of losing it's parents and we get to pay for the counseling they need later too. So that's a brilliant solution, NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Also, imo, gov. subsidized education loans should go before health benefits for folks, if our taxes won't cover it or we don't wanna pay it. That system is more corrupt and wasteful than the health care system. Why should I pay for your kids to attend college and get master's degrees when there r kids out there without basic heealth care needs met???? So I recommend cutting ALL governement student loans, subsidies, and grants beyond high school level. Let's make it really fair, and so the fittest really survive. If that's how u wanna play it. I bet half the whiners in here will have to forfeit their college degrees and their kids as well in that scenario, which means they won't be able to afford their kids anymore so they should lose them to the government. By the way, paying for a kid's health care costs a thousand or two a year, putting them into a home or foster care costs about $350k a yr per kid. Most of that money corrupt social program overseers and lawyers get, who never even say hi to the kid. And the kid suffers the lifelong trauma of losing it's parents and we get to pay for the counseling they need later too. So that's a brilliant solution, NOT! A subsidized loan is a far cry from free money for the poor. You actually think that LOANS are the same as Welfare/free health care for the poor? You are definitely deluded to some degree if that is the case. Yeah...let's keep all middle class kids that come from two parent families (relationships that actually worked) from having continued education. That is who you are targeting with no LOANS for college. Honestly, I know you can't possibly be that dumb. So, I will write this one up as you wanting to press your point by responding in kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I call unsportsmanlike conduct. Tailgating during a Redskins game? Who does that! I'm sniffing someone who hates America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUSkinsFan Posted October 7, 2007 Author Share Posted October 7, 2007 I call unsportsmanlike conduct. Tailgating during a Redskins game? Who does that! I'm sniffing someone who hates America. I was tailgating during commercials only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWill Posted October 7, 2007 Share Posted October 7, 2007 Don't think I am down to one window open. I am all over: the Skins bashing the Lions....and my two fantasy teams scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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