CNN: Tancredo: Threaten to bomb Muslim holy sites in retaliation

[SkinsHokieFan]

Well, how can it be provwed one IS a member of said org. w/o a trial?

Membership cards

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Well, how can it be provwed one IS a member of said org. w/o a trial?

Most of these whackjobs are more than willing to tell you that they're a member of these organizations. So far as I'm concerned that's an admission to the crime of Treason, for which the punishment is Death. Since they've been nice enough to admit their crime, no trial is necessary, so far as I'm concerned.

[ACW]

Most of these whackjobs are more than willing to tell you that they're a member of these organizations. So far as I'm concerned that's an admission to the crime of Treason, for which the punishment is Death. Since they've been nice enough to admit their crime, no trial is necessary, so far as I'm concerned.

Yes, 'cause nobody confesses under duress (or in this case, because they're delusional/want to feel like part of al-Qaeda when they're not).

[headexplode]

I don't think bombing Mecca will serve much good.

But what will?

Do we rule as an Empire, brutally and without concern for things like human rights?

Do we try to "convince" our enemies to like us by giving them candy bars and Big Macs?

Or is there some other way, some middle road that would allow us to have our cake and eat it, too?

These are valid questions, but knowing what we know about the human species, is there any reason to suggest that people will ever actually change in the end?

Personally, I think you're always going to have crazy people with crazy beliefs who want to kill other people with different beliefs. We're always going to have people who want to enslave and torture their "enemies" for the cause of "righteousness." We're always going to have governments and warlords and hierarchies and a whole host of subjects willing to unquestioningly obey.

Subjection of oneself to god, or to government, or to the scientific method, or to economic systems will ultimately lead one to sacrifice their fellow humans (and other animals) to those ideas or belief systems. The system becomes the ideal, regardless of what short-term suffering may be caused, because eventually it will all work out in the end. In short, what's good for the system is good for humanity. The muslims believe it, the christians believe it, the jews believe it, the americans, the french, the british, the taliban, no one is excluded from this phenomenon. They all believe they've found the true answer and anyone who questions this logic is dangerous to the system and must be neutralized.

We had over three thousand killed on 9/11. How many more have died since then, or badly maimed, both American and foreign, both civilian and military, in order to prevent another 9/11? How many weapons have been produced? How much profit has been made? And it ain't over. In fact, it will never be over. Perpetual war for perpetual peace is not an American ideal or creation, it's been the natural order of things since the origin of our species. America is not the only nation with blood on its hands. Ask France about Algeria and Vietnam. Ask England about India and, incidentally, Iraq itself (a country that they created). Look at almost every nation or state or tribe that has ever existed and you will see unnecessary violence, ignorance, treachery. You will also see an undue subjection to systems, or hierarchies, or the order of things.

The problem, as I see it, is not with muslim fundamentalists, or american neocons, or liberals, or religious hypocrites, but with the human species itself.

[PeterMP]

The problem, as I see it, is not with muslim fundamentalists, or american neocons, or liberals, or religious hypocrites, but with the human species itself.

***EDIT***

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Just trying to better understand what you think are the practical implications of your ideas.

****/EDIT***

So humans are inheriently evil, and we shouldn't do anything because the situation will never change?

[Vinnick]

I'm sorry but if you're an avowed member of an organization that has stated it's purpose is the destruction of the United States, I truly believe you've thrown away any/all right to a trial or any Constitutional protections.

Based on your sig. You already think the U.S. is dead.

I bet you'd feel differently if some mistake that had nothing to do with you, got you some waterboarding. Its easy for us to talk big about blocking up chunks of the planet online. But, you have no concept of humans and how they react. 9/11 led to a bump in our military recruits. Us being in Iraq did the same for Al-Queda. Pearl Harbor....etc.

You've learned nothing from history.

[headexplode]

So humans are inheriently evil, and we shouldn't do anything because the situation will never change?

No, I never said humans are inherently evil. And I never said we shouldn't do anything.

I think there can be change, but we would have to abandon the idea that systems are more important than our fellow human beings. I don't ever see that happening.

I would add, also, that systems are not inherently evil, but because they have been so adulated over the course of human history, and are so unduly adhered to and believed, that they take greater importance than the lives of our fellow humans, and naturally we do whatever it takes to protect our systems (or fictions, as Burgold called them), even if it means causing suffering on others.

[Die Hard]

I fear that the total war is inevitable anyway.

Stupid thing to say publicly, but not stupid to use in private channels.

I'd have to agree. I think it's coming.... and it's inevitable. Eventually, the US and Isreal are going to reach their threshold... and decide against attempting to come to dipolomatic solutions.

It'll be ugly... and then the world will move on.

Just my opinion... not sure if I'll see it in my lifetime but if I was a betting man, I figure I'll be alive for it.

[PeterMP]

No, I never said humans are inherently evil. And I never said we shouldn't do anything.

I think there can be change, but we would have to abandon the idea that systems are more important than our fellow human beings. I don't ever see that happening.

I would add, also, that systems are not inherently evil, but because they have been so adulated over the course of human history, and are so unduly adhered to and believed, that they take greater importance than the lives of our fellow humans, and naturally we do whatever it takes to protect our systems (or fictions, as Burgold called them), even if it means causing suffering on others.

This whole matter is another discussion for another time, but when you suggest that the problem is w/ the human species I think most people are going to read that as an inherient flaw we aren't capable of over coming (at least not on our own).

[PeterMP]

I'd have to agree. I think it's coming.... and it's inevitable. Eventually, the US and Isreal are going to reach their threshold... and decide against attempting to come to dipolomatic solutions.

It'll be ugly... and then the world will move on.

Just my opinion... not sure if I'll see it in my lifetime but if I was a betting man, I figure I'll be alive for it.

It depends on when we become independent of oil. No big war there until we are. After that, it could happen.

[headexplode]

This whole matter is another discussion for another time, but when you suggest that the problem is w/ the human species I think most people are going to read that as an inherient flaw we aren't capable of over coming (at least not on our own).

I think we could overcome it, I just don't think we will. I don't believe humans are inherently good or evil--they are made of both. Human beings are generally contradictory in almost every sense. Whether there is some natural need for humans to construct systems I don't know, someone else may be able to speak to that.

Not to say we shouldn't strive for better, but, you know, I don't think we'll ever get past the striving part.

(Granted, it's the not the most popular position I've ever taken.)

I should've probably just said I don't think bombing Mecca will deter terrorists from murdering innocent people.

[Vinnick]

If we became independent from oil. We know exactly what would happen.

The oil rich in that region all the sudden wouldn't be able to pay off the "terrorists" to attack others instead of them. The whole region would drop into a underfunded warzone. Dirty bombs, radicial religous waves like we've never seen. Maybe the area becomes glowing sand for a few decades. Maybe not.

Once the West, and China discover alt energies. The middle east is going to explode under its own pressure.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Based on your sig. You already think the U.S. is dead.

Yes I do, and I'm getting to a point where I don't think there are any resuscitive measures that will ever bring it back either.

I bet you'd feel differently if some mistake that had nothing to do with you, got you some waterboarding.

As I have repeatedly said.... if I put myself in a position where I can be accused of a crime and not have an immediate, ironclad alibi, then I (or anyone else) gets exactly what they deserve.

Its easy for us to talk big about blocking up chunks of the planet online. But, you have no concept of humans and how they react. 9/11 led to a bump in our military recruits. Us being in Iraq did the same for Al-Queda. Pearl Harbor....etc.

I have more of a concept of how humanity works than you think. I learned the true evil and decay inside human beings at a very young age. As I got older I began to see the same thing on the outside of most human beings as well. To be honest, I don't see that our entire species has any redeeming value at this point.

You've learned nothing from history.

Yes I have.... Always treat your enemies as your enemies and give them nothing more than the mercy of a quick and brutal death for they will give you nothing more than that if they are able.

[Predicto]

Yes I have.... Always treat your enemies as your enemies and give them nothing more than the mercy of a quick and brutal death for they will give you nothing more than that if they are able.

MSF Creed

[Vinnick]

Yes I do, and I'm getting to a point where I don't think there are any resuscitive measures that will ever bring it back either.

As I have repeatedly said.... if I put myself in a position where I can be accused of a crime and not have an immediate, ironclad alibi, then I (or anyone else) gets exactly what they deserve.

I have more of a concept of how humanity works than you think. I learned the true evil and decay inside human beings at a very young age. As I got older I began to see the same thing on the outside of most human beings as well. To be honest, I don't see that our entire species has any redeeming value at this point.

Yes I have.... Always treat your enemies as your enemies and give them nothing more than the mercy of a quick and brutal death for they will give you nothing more than that if they are able.

So, all those years growing up in different parts of the world have taught you a lot, eh? You know so much about different cultures, that you know EXACTLY what will happen if we turn that desert into glass.

[Doozinbrah]

So, all those years growing up in different parts of the world have taught you a lot, eh? You know so much about different cultures, that you know EXACTLY what will happen if we turn that desert into glass.

Man, I am a big fan of art glass. I bet that would be pretty in the desert! :laugh:

[Prosperity]

So many god damn nuts... there isn't going to be total war, Mecca isn't going to get bombed...it's nothing but fear mongering by short sighted and uneducated people.

But hey... that segment of the population votes as well as any other right? Well I doubt it helps him in the long run, but for the GOP primary it probably gives him some sort of boost... probably very small.

bombing Mecca would be ironic though.. the US has already taken care of two historical enemies of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Baathist regime, and the Taliban, the House of Saud would do well for the triple crown.

[Brave]

I'd have to agree. I think it's coming.... and it's inevitable. Eventually, the US and Isreal are going to reach their threshold... and decide against attempting to come to dipolomatic solutions.

It'll be ugly... and then the world will move on.

Just my opinion... not sure if I'll see it in my lifetime but if I was a betting man, I figure I'll be alive for it.

I also agree. I've been saying for the last few years that I see things shaping up East vs. West in my lifetime, or perhaps in my childrens' lifetime. I can imagine a large war sparked by East vs. West culture clash, which then becomes a true World War as those in between (China, India, etc.) are forced to take sides for their own interests.

And I don't think it will wait until we are no longer dependent on oil. It may be our very dependence that pushes us toward a larger war.

I suppose that's a pessimistic view, but I don't see much to make me change my mind. A few more 9/11 style attacks ... or even a lot of smaller attacks (as in Israel) and you'll see how quickly we stop letting our PC ways make us vulnerable. When it's the very survival of our way of life on the line, we might just get as nasty as we have to in order to effectively win a war.

Sad to think ...

[PeterMP]

I also agree. I've been saying for the last few years that I see things shaping up East vs. West in my lifetime, or perhaps in my childrens' lifetime. I can imagine a large war sparked by East vs. West culture clash, which then becomes a true World War as those in between (China, India, etc.) are forced to take sides for their own interests.

It won't happen anytime soon, and I doubt ever the way you describe it. First, at least what I percieve to be your concept of the West is not valid. Western society is no longer a united entity. Many Western European countries no longer even claim to really practice capitilisim, while many of the residents identify as Christian, they aren't by any means even a mainstream Christian here would recognize, their idea of how to deal w/ terrorism is polar opposite of the majority here (see the fact that they've never invaded a SINGLE country over a terrorist attack and completely rejected the reasoning behind going to war w/ Iraq), and lastly they have an already relevant and growing Muslim/African population that would prevent them from acting in the way you describe unless they themsleves were subject to some real debilitating attack, and there is a reason there haven't been any real terror attacks in France, Germany, and others lately.

In addition, a war w/ the "East" while we are dependent upon them for oil would be a disaster for us. Any intelligent politician and military person realizes this. Where do you think the fuel comes from to run the tanks, air planes, and boats that run our military? If some flash point occurred and our "allies" in the ME fall to the "extremist" (in some cases the majority of the populace would probably fall into what some here would identify as extreme), they would quickly shut off the flow of oil. Our economy would pretty quickly be in smitherens, and a large number of our military would be stuck in Muslim countries, surrounded by enemies w/ real limitations on what we could do to withdraw them because we would need fuel, which we would be of limited supply and the ports, which would be surrounded by and controlled by those enemies. I don't think any President wants to go on tv and announce that he is using nuclear weapons to blast a path to safety for our troops in Afganistan to withdraw through.

Why do you think they are so careful w/ Pakistan? If Mushareff fell and that spread to throughout the ME and N. Africa, we'd be in big trouble really quickly, especially if it happened in a time frame that prevented us from safely repositioning our troops that are over there. Any idea what China or Russia would give for some US military hardware?

[Die Hard]

In addition, a war w/ the "East" while we are dependent upon them for oil would be a disaster for us. Any intelligent politician and military person realizes this. Where do you think the fuel comes from to run the tanks, air planes, and boats that run our military?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1157172,00.html

"The U.S. buys 1.5 million barrels of oil from Venezuela each day at full price," says Fattah.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_11/b3924086_mz058.htm

The U.S. depends on Venezuela for 15% of its oil imports

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1157172,00.html

"The U.S. buys 1.5 million barrels of oil from Venezuela each day at full price," says Fattah.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_11/b3924086_mz058.htm

The U.S. depends on Venezuela for 15% of its oil imports

You think Chavez wouldn't cut off the flow of oil as well?

[PeterMP]

You think Chavez wouldn't cut off the flow of oil as well?

You beat me to it, but more importantly, they aren't just going to turn the oil off to us. They won't be able to. They will turn the oil off to essentially everyone. Now, we get 15% of our oil from Venezuala, but if there is little to no Arab oil, that oil then has to stretch all over the world. Do you think that China is going to voluntarily (they'd probably have to some due to price) decrease their oil consumption because we are at war w/ the ME?

[SUSkinsFan]

LOL. You are kidding, right? WE DON'T HAVE ANY ALLIES IN THE ARAB WORLD. Take a look at where the Sept. 11 bombers came from.

You have NO idea what you're talking about. The Saudi terrorists on September 11th came from a region of the country that HATES the Saudi government for its ties to the United States, so stop acting like Saudi Arabia sponsored their actions. Also, remember that 18 people do not represent an entire country, that is the same as assuming that all members of the United States armed forces are inhuman because of Abu Ghraib. People like Osama bin Laden represent Islam and the Middle East the same way the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity and America.

[Die Hard]

You think Chavez wouldn't cut off the flow of oil as well?

No, I'm pretty sure he'd see that as quite the opportunity.

[The Sisko]

Wow. Lots of foolhardy opinions to refute in this one....where to start, where to start. OK, how about with the low hanging fruit, i.e. MSF.

OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that we actually do "carpet nuke" the Arabian peninsula. First of all, how will we and the world replace the largest proven oil reserves in the world that are now buried under all that radioactive glass?

But wait, figuring out how to fuel our economy and war machinery is the easy part. What's more difficult is how then do we handle the rest of the world's Muslims who will undoubtedly be more than a little P.O.'d at what we've done? Just out of curiosity, please answer the following. What is the world's most populous Muslim country. (Hint, it aint Saudi Arabia;) )

Now, let's move on to all the talk of major cataclysmic war with the M.E. This is great stuff for the "Left Behind" series of novels and such. However, for thinking people it's pretty silly. Think about it. We haven't even been able to subdue Iraq and Afghanistan and our military is stretched to the limit. Israel, arguably unfettered by the same type of humanitarian concerns as our military, wasn't able to destroy Hezbollah last summer. What then makes you think we're going to be able to subdue the whole M.E. by ourselves? Answer, not gonna happen. The reality is we can't beat them and they can't beat us. A classic stalemate.

The longer we exhaust ourselves actively fighting them militarily, the more we lose. Think about it. We spend a few million bucks to take out three or four of them with a missile or other high-tech ordnance. In response, they simply replace these combat losses with an inexaustable supply of cannon fodder.

Therefore, our best policy would be to pursue a lukewarm and/or cold war (as appropriate) and wait them out until they realize that Islamic extremism won't work any better than communism, pan-Arabism or any of the other "isms" that they've latched onto over the years. In the end, time and truth will erode Islamic extremism just as it eroded communism.