Does anyone know if Rogers ever worked with Green and Sanders

[Warpath11]

You also fail to realize that the guy getting blown off the ball was Lemar Marshall and Warrick Holdman.

Good analysis and all but this comment doesn't make much sense. Our LBs would not have been blown off the ball had our DTs (entire DL for that matter) occupied blockers in order to allow our LBs to make the plays. LBs should never (in an ideal situation of course, which, granted, does not happen all the time) be blown off the ball on a running play.

[Flycoach]

he was supposed to work with these two this offseason, i havent heard anything about it. if he did i hope they taught him how to catch better. damn i would write more but my wife is yelling at me to go.does anyone know if c rog ever really got some help from these two? I like rogers i just wish he could catch picks.

Grow a pair! Be a man! Tell your wife that YOU wear the....oops, gotta go, wife's coming.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

you guys who keep saying this must have long term memory problems. Rogers was bad last year in nearly all facets of being a corner. He was consistently giving up 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 4. He was getting beat deep consistently, and he could not catch.

It was only his second year, so I'm not giving up on the kid (especially since he had a very solid rookie campaign), but it is simply FALSE to argue that Rogers was anything better than below mediocre last year.

he played so far off the receivers because williams was well aware that we could generate no pressure, so he had to play soft coverage. if we had a real pass rush, guys could push up on receivers because quarterbacks wouldnt have all day to set and throw. rogers doesnt make his own calls on where he lines up. springs played way off of guys too on tons of plays. everyone in our secondary was below mediocre. any CB would suck with the "rush" we brought if you could even call it a rush. 19 sacks people. 19. thats like a good month for the ravens.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

you guys who keep saying this must have long term memory problems. Rogers was bad last year in nearly all facets of being a corner. He was consistently giving up 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 4.

This is what I was talking about. For some reason the issue of Rogers playing so far off the line being a result of what the coaches told him to do is irrelevant to those who insist Rogers played awful last season. Actual points brought up by those who think Rogers played decently never get addressed beyond the 'Did you watch the games last year'-type comments.

He was getting beat deep consistently, and he could not catch.

Can you show how many times he got "beat deep" last season? I don't really want your perception, I want something that keeps track of stats like these...

[Smoot Point Really]

Defending/knocking down a pass IS making plays.

I'd be happy to see your analysis... Defending/knocking down a pass IS making a play... However, the average of the top 50 CBs (by pass defensed... including Carlos Rogers) turns a PD into an INT 23% of the time. Carlos did it less than 6% of the time last year. Don't you think it would've made a difference to the Redskins if Carlos had 5 INTs instead of 1? We wouldn't be having this discussion if he converted 5 of those, and we might have won one or two games more last year.

Of the top 50, Carlos Rogers was the 6th worst in this category last year. Only the rookie, Johnathan Joseph, had a worse year among cornerbacks (20 PDs and 0 INTs... Joseph had more PDs, does that mean he had a better year than Carlos? BTW, safeties are mixed into the results). Champ Bailey, who I hope we can safely assume gets the ball thrown to him a LOT less than Carlos Rogers had 21 PDs and 10 INTs for close to a 50% conversion rate (best in the top 50... BTW, Dawan Landry was 2nd in this group... 11 PDs and 5 INTs).

[Califan007 The Constipated]

19 sacks people. 19. thats like a good month for the ravens.

:laugh:

[ncr2h]

So this thread was on topic for all of ONE reply. DID THE MAN PRACTICE WITH THOSE TWO OR NOT? Lordy.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

This is what I was talking about. For some reason the issue of Rogers playing so far off the line being a result of what the coaches told him to do is irrelevant to those who insist Rogers played awful last season. Actual points brought up by those who think Rogers played decently never get addressed beyond the 'Did you watch the games last year'-type comments.

Can you show how many times he got "beat deep" last season? I don't really want your perception, I want something that keeps track of stats like these...

tally "2" on the "i agree with you" board. rogers doesnt choose where he lines up. why some people think otherwise is just beyond me.

and i can name 3 or 4 times he got beat deep. i know in the minny game he did, guy dropped the ball, not sure if he was covering on the one big completion. galloway slayed him on a failed 8 man blitz williams dialed up where no one got through, but remember, our dline is ok......., stallworth torched somebody during the iggs game in philly, not sure if it was him or not, and i think TO torched him and fox during the dallas game, but TO dropped the pass. i could be wrong on some of these, if i am please let me know. these are the only torchings i can think of.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I'd be happy to see your analysis... Defending/knocking down a pass IS making a play... However, the average of the top 50 CBs (by pass defensed... including Carlos Rogers) turns a PD into an INT 23% of the time. Carlos did it less than 6% of the time last year. Don't you think it would've made a difference to the Redskins if Carlos had 5 INTs instead of 1?

It would have made a difference if we had more sacks as well...

It would have made a difference if we could have scored an offensive TD against our division rivals while Brunell was behind center...

It would have made a difference if Betts could have held onto the ball better...

It would have made a difference if we didn't have three different placekickers throughout the season...

and on and on and on...

Besides, finding fault in Rogers "only" successfully defending a pass is a bit ridiculous. It's like faulting your cb for not returning any of his INTs for touchdowns lol...("Don't you think that if he could have returned 2 or 3 of those INTs for touchdowns it would have made a difference?"). I'm not sure why you're so intent on saying passes defended is a lousy way to determine a CB's play.

Of the top 50, Carlos Rogers was the 6th worst in this category last year. Only the rookie, Johnathan Joseph, had a worse year among cornerbacks (20 PDs and 0 INTs... Joseph had more PDs, does that mean he had a better year than Carlos? BTW, safeties are mixed into the results). Champ Bailey, who I hope we can safely assume gets the ball thrown to him a LOT less than Carlos Rogers had 21 PDs and 10 INTs for close to a 50% conversion rate (best in the top 50... BTW, Dawan Landry was 2nd in this group... 11 PDs and 5 INTs).

How did the defenses these CBs played on rank for the season, especially in terms of sacks and QB pressures? Yeah, that does play a part.

[Smoot Point Really]

Anyway, BLC... at least you and CF007 are much kinder to me that you should've been. Nice analysis, but I still disagree on a few points.

1) I think we can get at least one more year out of the current DL

2) Our pass rush should be better with the depth we've added at LB and DB

I agree that since Williams took over, I was expecting a higher level of actual play-making ability out of our defense. We do not have a very high conversion-rate and don't seem to make plays. If anything, we're more bend-don't-break and our defense hardly ever wins games for us like we'd like them to. We don't get enough sacks, interceptions or fumbles. When we drafted Rogers, he was supposed to be considered a playmaker (like Taylor). Somehow, this hasn't happened under Williams as you would expect.

I expect Carlos to get his hands on more balls this year (and hold onto them) and end this debate...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

tally "2" on the "i agree with you" board. rogers doesnt choose where he lines up. why some people think otherwise is just beyond me.

and i can name 3 or 4 times he got beat deep. i know in the minny game he did, guy dropped the ball, not sure if he was covering on the one big completion. galloway slayed him on a failed 8 man blitz williams dialed up where no one got through, but remember, our dline is ok......., stallworth torched somebody during the iggs game in philly, not sure if it was him or not, and i think TO torched him and fox during the dallas game, but TO dropped the pass. i could be wrong on some of these, if i am please let me know. these are the only torchings i can think of.

The problem is, do we know if Rogers was in man coverage on, say, the T.O. drop...was it zone...who's "responsibility" was he on that particular play...etc, etc.

Did he let his receiver go thinking he had safety help? Was he right to think he had safety help? Etc, etc...

We still have discussions on whether or not it was Taylor or Springs at fault for letting Crayton get behind them and score that TD with 30 seconds to go in 2004...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

When we drafted Rogers, he was supposed to be considered a playmaker (like Taylor). Somehow, this hasn't happened under Williams as you would expect.

Was he really?...I only remember hearing about how much sturdier he would be than Smoot and that he would be great in run support, tackling and sacks....which was supposed to be the thing that made him a better fit in Williams' schemes than someone like Smoot, who may have gotten more INTs but might injure easily and had questionable tackling skills.

I expect Carlos to get his hands on more balls this year (and hold onto them) and end this debate...

I expect the whole damn defense to pay us back for putting us through the 2006 season lol...

[Smoot Point Really]

I'm not sure why you're so intent on saying passes defended is a lousy way to determine a CB's play.

Because it's relative to the number of balls thrown your way... It doesn't account for the number of times you allowed a player to catch a ball 5 yards underneath your coverage. It would be a worthwhile stat if it was accompanied by a "thrown at" stat. It is a bit subjective, but they can score it like they do "errors" in baseball. I think the "football scientists" are the only group that collects valuable statistics on CBs, but I don't have a subscription. I hear they did this type of analysis on Rogers and he rated poorly last year... Oddly, Macklin rated fairly high and I hear they think we got a pretty good deal for a nickle/dime guy.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Because it's relative to the number of balls thrown your way... It doesn't account for the number of times you allowed a player to catch a ball 5 yards underneath your coverage.

But the thing is, that's often dictated by the coach and the play/package/scheme being used or called. It's not solely the result of good or bad CB play.

It would be a worthwhile stat if it was accompanied by a "thrown at" stat.

I think it exists somewhere...seem to remember someone bringing it up a year or two ago in connection to Bailey (who, during his first year with the Broncos absolutely sucked in the catagory of being beat deep...wish I could find that analysis, it was pretty enlightening).

It is a bit subjective, but they can score it like they do "errors" in baseball. I think the "football scientists" are the only group that collects valuable statistics on CBs, but I don't have a subscription. I hear they did this type of analysis on Rogers and he rated poorly last year... Oddly, Macklin rated fairly high and I hear they think we got a pretty good deal for a nickle/dime guy.

Macklin took less money to play here, and to play here in a nickle/dime capacity. That can't be anything but good...

[Justsomeguy]

Well I think Carlos will be leaps and bounds better than last year. Just my opinion though.

[cmorina69]

Doesn't matter.

There is no help for Carlos "No D" Rogers.

Some one is a hater , hes a good CB he just needs to come into his own.

[Smoot Point Really]

So this thread was on topic for all of ONE reply. DID THE MAN PRACTICE WITH THOSE TWO OR NOT? Lordy.

Who cares? He needs to practice with Lester Hayes and stick 'em...

[NavyDave]

Rogers should improve in his 3rd year since I did hear he is working on his mechanics and hands.

Now just put a credible pass rush along the defensive line for him and the entire secondary wlil look great.

The idea/opinion that he is done after his sophmore season doesn't mean posters are cowpoke fans just that their opinions are stupid.

[TheLongshot]

you guys who keep saying this must have long term memory problems. Rogers was bad last year in nearly all facets of being a corner. He was consistently giving up 10 yard cushions on 3rd and 4. He was getting beat deep consistently, and he could not catch.

It was only his second year, so I'm not giving up on the kid (especially since he had a very solid rookie campaign), but it is simply FALSE to argue that Rogers was anything better than below mediocre last year.

See, this is the types of comments I was talking about.

He played 10 yards off the ball because the coaches TOLD him to play 10 yards off the ball. He wouldn't be consistantly doing it if the coaching staff didn't sign off on it. So, there were reasons for it.

I wouldn't say he was getting beat deep "consistently". Yeah, he got beat a few times. No more than the average corner, tho. Course, considering how safety coverage struggled most of the year and the guy on the other side being a useless appendage for half the games, I doubt that Rogers was the worst guy out there.

Fact is, the whole defense was pretty mediocre last year. Given that, outside of the stuff individually that we can point out (like his drops), it is really hard to judge Rogers. For all we know, he was mostly doing everything right and the failures were because of other players.

Jason

[[[ghost]]]

When you drop the ball when it hits you squarely in your hands, INT's are definately more important.

Of course they are. But that doesn't mean you should discount the Defended Passes altogether. I'll take somebody who regularly bats down balls, as compared to a guy who takes chances and gets burned half the time. Consistancy with out the huge prize if far more valuable than the homerun threat whose just as likely to be the guy giving up the homerun.

Don't get me wrong, Carlos NEEDS to work on his hands like no other person in the world, but he's still a good corner. Now, if GW will tell him to stop playing 20 yards away from the WR, we'll hopefully see some improvement.

[TSO]

Really, the only thing that was glaringly wrong about Rogers was the fact that he couldn't hold onto the ball. Considering he's a CB and not a WR, that isn't a killer.

Everything else is harder to focus on, because it is harder for us laymen to actually nail down where failures happen because we don't know what the defense was trying to do. For example, a lot of people put the blame on Rogers for playing off the ball, but that's part of the scheme of the defense and until you can understand that, it is hard to say that that was part of the problem, especially if the failure was elsewhere.

Jason

I remember last season in the 4th Quarter during the Jacksonville game when Byron Leftwich was leading his team on that final FG drive. If you recall, they were around our 40 yard line and still had time to move down the field. They got into field goal range, and were even trying to go for the win with a TD. I remember Carlos Rogers lining up far off the reciever as he was usually told to do, and I remember the Jaguars trying to attack that side. LeftWich threw an out route which would've been completed had the reciever not lost his footing disrupting the timing of it. Carlos was covering him, and probably would've got beat had he not had that fortune happen to him.

Now... that point of this is that right after the play, I saw Carlos flip his hands up in the air in clear frustration towards the sidelines, as if saying "Let me play up on the WR!". It's clear Carlos believes in his abilities, and also believes the team knows it too. Otherwise he wouldn't have vented his anger this way. He would've just accepted it. The problem was we were too scared we would get beat deep with our lack of good Corner play and Safety play(and no, not from ST). So Carlos was simply forced into this position so as to be sort of another safety.

One thing that amazed me about his play though was that even though he was forced into this situation he NEVER allowed the opposing offense to make a play on him when trying to take advantage of the distance he lined up in. What I mean is those quick passes designed to beat the corner lined up far from the reciever. Almost every team would try to do it once a game against us, and Carlos pretty much always made the play. He was extremely quick to sniff the play out, run towards the WR at full force, and make the tackle as soon as the WR got the ball in his hands.

[TSO]

Rogers should improve in his 3rd year since I did hear he is working on his mechanics and hands.

Now just put a credible pass rush along the defensive line for him and the entire secondary wlil look great.

The idea/opinion that he is done after his sophmore season doesn't mean posters are cowpoke fans just that their opinions are stupid.

I thought they were synonymous?

[terpfan]

He's still VERY young. He didnt have a good year last year... but I'm not giving up on him yet.

He will never be a shutdown CB, but I still think he can be a solid starter.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

Come on, man. Carlos clearly improved last year, and has played pretty solidly his two years here. Sure he got burned at times, but so did our entire defense. He will have a nice year, I'm sure.

Carlos didn't improve last year.. If anything he took a step backwards. How easily we forget how bad he was last year. I DVR'd all the games, and I've been watching them all offseason to hold me over until this season starts. Let me tell you, every team we faced went after him because they knew he wasn't very good last year.

Now, I'm not saying he can't get better. He just had an off year, hopefully this offseason he's made some adjustments to turn his game around. He better or the ghost of Merriman will haunt us forever.

[Smoot Point Really]

Coaches tell a guy where to lineup in HS and maybe in college. I think when they get to the Pros, most coaches figure a professional player knows where to line up and he tells him to either cover a man, or cover an area. I don't buy this "blaming the coach" that a player lines up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. A coach can't see a Wide Receivers eyes and certainly can't tell a player how to adjust to motion or changes by the QB at the line of scrimmage... A cornerback must read the play and line up based on how he reads the play.