Does anyone know if Rogers ever worked with Green and Sanders

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The problem is, do we know if Rogers was in man coverage on, say, the T.O. drop...was it zone...who's "responsibility" was he on that particular play...etc, etc.

Did he let his receiver go thinking he had safety help? Was he right to think he had safety help? Etc, etc...

We still have discussions on whether or not it was Taylor or Springs at fault for letting Crayton get behind them and score that TD with 30 seconds to go in 2004...

very good points as well. i was under the assumption that williams dialed up tons of man coverage, but maybe not this year, we dont know for sure. either way, hopefully our LB/DB blitzes this year and hopefully more pressure from the front four will allow our guys to play straight man and be effective, im not gonna hold my breath just yet.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

See, this is the types of comments I was talking about.

He played 10 yards off the ball because the coaches TOLD him to play 10 yards off the ball.

And why do you suppose they were asking him to play 10 yards off the WR? I have the answer if you want it

[Smoot Point Really]

And why do you suppose they were asking him to play 10 yards off the WR? I have the answer if you want it

I was just about to post how illogical it was for people to defend Carlos Rogers by saying it was the coaches fault because they told him to line up 10 yards off the LOS... Of course, you stole my thunder. Nice catch.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Because it's relative to the number of balls thrown your way... It doesn't account for the number of times you allowed a player to catch a ball 5 yards underneath your coverage. It would be a worthwhile stat if it was accompanied by a "thrown at" stat. It is a bit subjective, but they can score it like they do "errors" in baseball. I think the "football scientists" are the only group that collects valuable statistics on CBs, but I don't have a subscription. I hear they did this type of analysis on Rogers and he rated poorly last year... Oddly, Macklin rated fairly high and I hear they think we got a pretty good deal for a nickle/dime guy.

just so you know, here are the number of balls thrown peoples way. rogers was one of the tops.

1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- 100

2. Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens -- 97

3. Charles Tillman, Chicago Bears -- 96

4. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins -- 96

5. Rashean Mathis, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 95

6. Quentin Jammer, San Diego Chargers -- 94

7. Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings -- 89

8. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- 87

9. Antrel Rolle, Arizona Cardinals -- 86

10. Fred Smoot, Minnesota Vikings -- 86

11. Fred Thomas, New Orleans Saints -- 86

12. Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- 85

13. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- 84

14. Samari Rolle, Baltimore Ravens -- 83

15. Dre' Bly, Detroit Lions -- 83

16. Brian Williams, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 82

17. Asante Samuel, New England Patriots -- 82

18. Drayton Florence, San Diego Chargers -- 81

19. Daven Holly, Cleveland Browns -- 80

20. Will Allen, Miami Dolphins -- 80

bailey was thrown at 65 times just for good measure.

so if rogers had 18 passes defended (1 int, 17 PD), and he was thrown at 96 times, thats 1 PD every 5.3 times. so for around every 5th pass thrown, rogers was getting in front of one. he played in 15 games, so he was thrown at on average 6.4 times per game. so lets say 6 for good measure, he was defending around 1 pass a game. thats far from horrible.

comparing him to charles tillman, who was thrown at the same amount of times, the numbers are pretty close. tillman had 19 PD (5 ints, 14 PD). his numbers are almost identical to rogers, except rogers couldnt hold on to some balls. if he learns how to catch, we sing a different tune about Los.

these come from joyners numbers from his scientific football book, i really wish he had posted the yards per completion against said receivers, im interested to know how many yards los gave up per completion. that would tell us a lot.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

And why do you suppose they were asking him to play 10 yards off the WR? I have the answer if you want it

ill take "our dline gets no pressure whatsoever and couldnt sack the quarterback if he was stephen hawking" for 1000 alex.

........ANSWER THERE IS THE DAILY DOUBLE!!!!!

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

BLC, I commend you for your tracking of stats... But stats don't always tell the whole story.

On a side note, as soon as I saw this thread I knew for a fact you'd be all in it.. :laugh: :laugh: You and I have squared off on this topic many times before, pretty funny how it keeps coming up.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

BLC, I commend you for your tracking of stats... But stats don't always tell the whole story.

On a side note, as soon as I saw this thread I knew for a fact you'd be all in it.. :laugh: :laugh: You and I have squared off on this topic many times before, pretty funny how it keeps coming up.

its the offseason, what else do we have to talk about? haha

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

ill take "our dline gets no pressure whatsoever and couldnt sack the quarterback if he was stephen hawking" for 1000 alex.

........ANSWER THERE IS THE DAILY DOUBLE!!!!!

XXX (Family Fued) A chance for the Slobberknocker Family to steal

Sorry, but like I've argued with you before... I've watched the tape over and over.... Rogers got burned on plays where the QB didn't have much time to sit in the pocket. I'm talking timing routes, pressures, etc. I never once considered when he was thrown to and burned when the QB had all day to throw the football. I only looked at the routes that were designed in rhythm and pressures and he was still mediocre in coverage. Yea he got lucky a few times, but it was very evident out of our top 2 CB's he was the weakest link.

Edit: The reason I say top 2, is because anything we had underneath Rogers was absolute garbage.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

XXX (Family Fued) A chance for the Slobberknocker Family to steal

Sorry, but like I've argued with you before... I've watched the tape over and over.... Rogers got burned on plays where the QB didn't have much time to sit in the pocket. I'm talking timing routes, pressures, etc. I never once considered when he was thrown to and burned when the QB had all day to throw the football. I only looked at the routes that were designed in rhythm and pressures and he was still mediocre in coverage. Yea he got lucky a few times, but it was very evident out of our top 2 CB's he was the weakest link.

teams started doing those quick routes the second they saw we were lined up far back. williams had no choice, i actually feel bad for him because he was so crippled all season by what he had on the field. we literally couldnt stop ANYTHING this season. i cant think of a single thing we exceled at on the defensive side of the ball.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

teams started doing those quick routes the second they saw we were lined up far back. williams had no choice, i actually feel bad for him because he was so crippled all season by what he had on the field. we literally couldnt stop ANYTHING this season. i cant think of a single thing we exceled at on the defensive side of the ball.

True, but even when he was up in bump and run coverage he was still getting his tits lit. The fact of the matter is that you can make all kinds of excuses for Rogers's play last year. But the bottom line is that he was mediocre at best no matter what scenario you put him in. That's why I'm hoping he's improved leaps and bounds this offseason or we are going to start to hear the Merriman talk again.

It's about the 3rd or 4th season where a CB usually defines what type of player he's going to be in his career. Let's cross our fingers and pray we have something special in Rogers.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Coaches tell a guy where to lineup in HS and maybe in college. I think when they get to the Pros, most coaches figure a professional player knows where to line up and he tells him to either cover a man, or cover an area. I don't buy this "blaming the coach" that a player lines up 10 yards off the line of scrimmage. A coach can't see a Wide Receivers eyes and certainly can't tell a player how to adjust to motion or changes by the QB at the line of scrimmage... A cornerback must read the play and line up based on how he reads the play.

So then, Rogers kept lining up far away from the LOS and kept getting beat...and the coaches never told him to stop doing so? You realize that still makes it the coach's fault, right? lol...

Besides, I remember vividly seeing Shawn Springs waving Rogers back away from the LOS right before the snap...only to then see Rogers backpeddle out of the camera's view. Springs saw him doing something he was NOT supposed to be doing (lining up close to the LOS), and corrected him, told him to move back from it...

[Smoot Point Really]

Again, this goes back to the Front Office. We've had a depth problem at Cornerback for years and we've been patching this position without really fixing it.

1) We had Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, and Deion Sanders... With Green and Sanders on the brink of retiring, we add Fred Smoot to replace two aged HoFers... Fred Smoot is forced into action his rookie year and does well. Even after Deion leaves, we have Champ Bailey, Darrell Green, and Fred Smoot...

2) Champ Bailey leaves in trade with Denver (we send an additional pick... or was it 2? with Bailey)... We add Shawn Springs who is not as good as Bailey, and has never been completely durable. Still, we don't have 3 very competent CBs... Rashad Bauman (who we drafted a few years earlier) and David Terrell leave.

3) In 2004, we add Walt Harris to replace Bauman and Terrell (who weren't that good to begin with). Our dime backs are Garnell Wilds, Ade Jimoh, Todd Franz, Pat Dennis and Rufus Brown (pick your poison)... Springs teams with Smoot to have one of his best years as a Pro recording 6 sacks and 5 INTs.

4) In 2005, we get rid of the Wildses and Dennises of the group and our Dime backs are Jimoh and Christian Morten... We lose Fred Smoot to Free Agency and draft rookie Carlos Rogers to fill the void of a very popular player who had 16 INTs in 4 years. Walt Harris is promoted to starter for most of the year.

5) In 2006, Walt Harris departs and we replace him with Kenny Wright. Springs gets injured, forcing Wright to be a starter for nearly half the year.

This team has been skating on thin ice for about 5 years at the Cornerback position. In 2001, our nickle/dime back was Darrell Green... in 2006, we started Kenny Wright and behind him was Ade Jimoh!

This should've been fixed. Bringing back Fred Smoot and adding Dave Macklin is exactly what this team needed. However, if we let Springs go... We are back in the same spot we've been in since 28 retired. I like Macklin, but I prefer him as a nickle/dime guy... Not as one injury away from being a starter.

[TheLongshot]

This should've been fixed. Bringing back Fred Smoot and adding Dave Macklin is exactly what this team needed. However, if we let Springs go... We are back in the same spot we've been in since 28 retired. I like Macklin, but I prefer him as a nickle/dime guy... Not as one injury away from being a starter.

I think it is hard to collect three high quality corners on your team and keep them around. Fact is, the guy who is #3 is either going to have issues, will soon be #2 or #1 or will be on another team eventually.

A lot of the turnover out there has to do with all the silly money getting passed out to CBs. Quality guys are getting ridiculous sums. Most teams can only afford one, which forces teams to depend on young players or lesser talents. Given that situation, you are lucky to get two quality starters, much less three.

Jason

[McD5]

he was more productive than shawn springs.

:laugh:

You have serious issues. Springs could be in a total body cast....and still be more productive than Rogers.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

:laugh:

You have serious issues. Springs could be in a total body cast....and still be more productive than Rogers.

gotta love those 2 interceptions over the past 2 years. im more partial to his lack of playing time myself. like remember when we went to the playoffs for the first time in how many years? and remember when shawn springs missed the bucs game (the only playoff game we won)? we held them to 10 points with "horrible" carlos rogers covering galloway. but those are back in the day when our defense generated "turnovers" and got "pressure", all foreign concepts to us redskins fans.

and be careful what you wish for, springs is very close to being in a full body cast.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

just so you know, here are the number of balls thrown peoples way. rogers was one of the tops.

1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- 100

2. Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens -- 97

3. Charles Tillman, Chicago Bears -- 96

4. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins -- 96

5. Rashean Mathis, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 95

6. Quentin Jammer, San Diego Chargers -- 94

7. Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings -- 89

8. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- 87

9. Antrel Rolle, Arizona Cardinals -- 86

10. Fred Smoot, Minnesota Vikings -- 86

11. Fred Thomas, New Orleans Saints -- 86

12. Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- 85

13. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- 84

14. Samari Rolle, Baltimore Ravens -- 83

15. Dre' Bly, Detroit Lions -- 83

16. Brian Williams, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 82

17. Asante Samuel, New England Patriots -- 82

18. Drayton Florence, San Diego Chargers -- 81

19. Daven Holly, Cleveland Browns -- 80

20. Will Allen, Miami Dolphins -- 80

bailey was thrown at 65 times just for good measure.

so if rogers had 18 passes defended (1 int, 17 PD), and he was thrown at 96 times, thats 1 PD every 5.3 times. so for around every 5th pass thrown, rogers was getting in front of one. he played in 15 games, so he was thrown at on average 6.4 times per game. so lets say 6 for good measure, he was defending around 1 pass a game. thats far from horrible.

comparing him to charles tillman, who was thrown at the same amount of times, the numbers are pretty close. tillman had 19 PD (5 ints, 14 PD). his numbers are almost identical to rogers, except rogers couldnt hold on to some balls. if he learns how to catch, we sing a different tune about Los.

these come from joyners numbers from his scientific football book, i really wish he had posted the yards per completion against said receivers, im interested to know how many yards los gave up per completion. that would tell us a lot.

the only problem with saying that this supports your analysis is that the 'skins do not assign one corner to one receiver. KC Joyner made the point of saying that a lot of these "shutdown" corners were routinely handed the job of stopping the best wr on the other team. that is not the case with Rogers. We were playing (at least through last year) a left and right corner. And the fact that he got picked on 96 times, does not make me think he's good.

[McD5]

gotta love those 2 interceptions over the past 2 years. im more partial to his lack of playing time myself. like remember when we went to the playoffs for the first time in how many years? and remember when shawn springs missed the bucs game (the only playoff game we won)? we held them to 10 points with "horrible" carlos rogers covering galloway. but those are back in the day when our defense generated "turnovers" and got "pressure", all foreign concepts to us redskins fans.

and be careful what you wish for, springs is very close to being in a full body cast.

Lack of playing time? Another myth. That is just absurd.

2004: 15 games

2005: 15 games

2006: 9 games

With the exception of last year.....the guy has hardly missed a game. What are you smoking over there???

And Portis is much closer to a body cast than Springs is. Geez.

[Smoot Point Really]

just so you know, here are the number of balls thrown peoples way. rogers was one of the tops.

1. Anthony Henry, Dallas Cowboys -- 100

2. Chris McAlister, Baltimore Ravens -- 97

3. Charles Tillman, Chicago Bears -- 96

4. Carlos Rogers, Washington Redskins -- 96

5. Rashean Mathis, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 95

6. Quentin Jammer, San Diego Chargers -- 94

7. Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Vikings -- 89

8. DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Falcons -- 87

9. Antrel Rolle, Arizona Cardinals -- 86

10. Fred Smoot, Minnesota Vikings -- 86

11. Fred Thomas, New Orleans Saints -- 86

12. Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Buccaneers -- 85

13. Dunta Robinson, Houston Texans -- 84

14. Samari Rolle, Baltimore Ravens -- 83

15. Dre' Bly, Detroit Lions -- 83

16. Brian Williams, Jacksonville Jaguars -- 82

17. Asante Samuel, New England Patriots -- 82

18. Drayton Florence, San Diego Chargers -- 81

19. Daven Holly, Cleveland Browns -- 80

20. Will Allen, Miami Dolphins -- 80

bailey was thrown at 65 times just for good measure.

so if rogers had 18 passes defended (1 int, 17 PD), and he was thrown at 96 times, thats 1 PD every 5.3 times. so for around every 5th pass thrown, rogers was getting in front of one. he played in 15 games, so he was thrown at on average 6.4 times per game. so lets say 6 for good measure, he was defending around 1 pass a game. thats far from horrible.

comparing him to charles tillman, who was thrown at the same amount of times, the numbers are pretty close. tillman had 19 PD (5 ints, 14 PD). his numbers are almost identical to rogers, except rogers couldnt hold on to some balls. if he learns how to catch, we sing a different tune about Los.

these come from joyners numbers from his scientific football book, i really wish he had posted the yards per completion against said receivers, im interested to know how many yards los gave up per completion. that would tell us a lot.

These are good stats... I trust what I've seen of Joyner's analysis. I agree he needs to yards/completion.

Carlos actually had 17PDs total (including INTs)... I always include INT with PD because what we care most about are how many times a guy made a play, not how many times a guy forced simply an incompletion.

You see from the 96 times thrown to that Carlos was one of the most contested CBs in the game, and while he got in the way of just fewer than 1 out of every 5 balls thrown his way, he only caught 1 out of 96. We wouldn't be talking about this if it were 5 out of 96... I like the guy and hope he turns it around.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

BLC, here's the problem with this constant argument you are making.

You are acting as if no one realizes that the entire defense stunk last year. We all know that there was no pressure on the quarterback, and that the d-line was horrible and lb's were horrible in coverage, and that generally the whole D failed. Gregg's schemes werent **** either.

We all know that.

But for some reason, you decided somewhere along the lines, that Rogers was not responsible for any of the problems. And at the same time, you decided that Springs is not valuable to the defense.

Yet, we are all basing our opinions on what we saw with our own eyes last year. If I had time (maybe I'll look tonight) I would do statistical research on the completion % v. rogers, and the yards per completion and yards per attempt that he gave up. I'm sure they are all miserable. But you will attribute that to the rest of the defense, and somehow absolve him.

Here's a thought for you: if we could TRUST rogers on an island out there, we may have actually been able to blitz. But GW learned early last year that Rogers could not cover a corpse by himself. So we were forced to drop back into coverage and force qb's to beat us by making the right decisions.

So, if you want to keep saying that the defense was bad year, that's fine... it was. IT SUCKED. but last time I checked, Rogers was on that defense. And the pass defense sucked too. And Rogers was a cornerback. THEY ALL SUCKED last year.

And just for the record, Springs was not on the field for about 8 games, so you can't sit here and say that it was his fault. Blame the guys who were on the field and couldnt stop a pee-wee team from moving the ball 80 yards by land, air, sea or whatever means of conveyance the opposing team sought fit to drive on us.

And please, stop this same argument over and over again about Springs sucking and Rogers being good.

[TheLongshot]

Here's a thought for you: if we could TRUST rogers on an island out there, we may have actually been able to blitz. But GW learned early last year that Rogers could not cover a corpse by himself. So we were forced to drop back into coverage and force qb's to beat us by making the right decisions.

Somehow, I think Arch and whoever was playing at the other CB position (Either Wright or Rumph) are higher on that list than Rogers. That, and the fact that the Safeties has to worry about the run a lot more because of the subpar play of the LB corp most of the year.

I'm actually wondering if the reason why Rogers was playing off the ball so much was because they were rolling coverage over to the other side, leaving Rogers mostly one-on-one.

In any case, I don't think any of us is trying to say that Rogers is free from problems. What I'm saying, at least, is that without the proper information, it is hard to judge anyone's individual performance. Certainly, I can talk about a group of players with an amount of certanty as to their performance, but when you talk about an individual in a team sport, there are usually other factors that affect play.

No, Rogers didn't have a great season last year. No defender did, really. But, I don't think he was crap either.

Jason

[jimmd83]

Did anyone ever asnwer the question, jesus. And dont say it doesnt matter, bc i dont see anyway that learning from two of the greatest cbs of all time cant help him.

[BigCountry22]

From what I saw this past weekend at the Palms in LV he was not very concerned with interceptions.

[ceviker]

Doesn't matter.

There is no help for Carlos "No D" Rogers.

He's a second year player last year, for ****'s sake. Corners take time to develop. I think he has all the tools to be a great number 1 in the league, he just needs to fight hard for it.

[Washington53fan]

u saw cr in vegas? hows he look like as far as in-shape?

[Stew]

Did anyone ever asnwer the question, jesus. And dont say it doesnt matter, bc i dont see anyway that learning from two of the greatest cbs of all time cant help him.

Well, Smoot learned under D. Green while he was playing, Dion Sanders AND Champ Baily. Smoot has the best learning pedigree of them all.