jasimpson Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Seriously, I ADMIT that I am Sean Taylor homer, but how many threads have we had on him in the last month, damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veretax Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't think that a player's number matters at all, but Deion did make quite a name for 21. I can't realy think of anyone else with that number except for Smoot and Allen, and the latter wasn't even a DB. Ernest Byner wore 21 during our last SB run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsngibbs4life Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If my memory serves, we only got into the playoffs and only won our first playoff game because of Taylor's playmaking ability and returning fumbles for TDs. Man, if you think Taylor is a bust who do you think isn't? Players and coaches alike around the league say he is a great player, but again, what do they know compared to you? so now his whole season was a success just because of two plays? not saying they wernt good. I guess troy vincent had a pro bowl year with that block that he had that won the game against dallas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[[ghost]] Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I too am a Sean Taylor man-crusher. I love the guy to death. He's definately my idol. So perhaps I'm biased, but ST is FAR from a bust. Hell, Roy Williams in his Coverage Majesty isn't close to being a bust, and ST is head and shoulders above him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 so now his whole season was a success just because of two plays? not saying they wernt good.I guess troy vincent had a pro bowl year with that block that he had that won the game against dallas. Jeez, what would it take for you to be satisfied? You're just spouting "criticisms" without providing evidence or trying to see the big picture. I don't respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsngibbs4life Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Jeez, what would it take for you to be satisfied? You're just spouting "criticisms" without providing evidence or trying to see the big picture. I don't respect that. trying to see the big picutre? Isnt that what I was underlying in the previous post? jeez. Did I ever say he was bad in the post? no. I just said it is stupid to think he had a successful year from two plays. but hell, you want justification? 1) Is undiciplined 2) Below average in coverage 3)He takes horrible angles not only in coverage, but on tackles. 4)overpursues plays way to often In no way am I bashing his athleticism, desire, or will power. Hell, he has all the tools to be the greatest of all time. HOWEVER, some of his skills arn't up to par. And if you cant see him out there overpursuing, missing tackles, and taking bad angles, then I honestly dont know what I can tell you. Because I could find examples of all of these several times in every game this year(and yes, I made sure to watch what he was doing on virtually every play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregpeck99 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Taylor is a bust beacuse of what Skins...4Life says and for the further reason he has almost no interecptions in 3 yrs. and very few pass deflections. He is a safety and is supposed to cover ... he is a miserable failure at doing so ... Sometimes the truth is hard to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Taylor is a bust beacuse of what Skins...4Life says and for the further reason he has almost no interecptions in 3 yrs. and very few pass deflections. He is a safety and is supposed to cover ... he is a miserable failure at doing so ... Sometimes the truth is hard to take. Using your logic Ed Reed and Brian Dawkins were busts too. Reed's 1st year: 5 INT 7 Pass Def Dawkins' 1st year: 3 INT 6 Pass Def Taylor's 1st year: 4 INT 9 Pass Def Now lets also look at some other factors. Yes, Taylor's INT numbers have dropped off some in the last 2 years. In 05 he had 2 INT but 10 Pass Def. In 06 he had 1 INT and 6 Pass Def. Now let us look at his tackle numbers. In his first two years (when we had top 5 and top 10 defenses) he had totals of 78 and 70 tackles. This year (when we had a 31st ranked defense) he had 111 tackles. Quite a jump eh? So what does this tell us? Perhaps our defense couldn't stop the run to save it's life and he had to come up to make plays. What else happens when a FS has to come up to make plays that others miss? Well a couple of things. First, they have less INTs and Pass Def since they are forced to move up more as opposed to be ball hawks and second there is more of a chance of blown coverage since we also had sub par CB play much of the time and Taylor was trying to do both. That means he would have to watch for the run first, sometimes bite on play action, and then get back as fast as he could to help the CBs if it was a pass play. Lots of safeties wouldn't even be able to do that much. You see there is a direct correlation between the front 7 and the DB play. Lets look at Ed Reed again. The guy is an interception machine, right? He is obviously a great safety and you'll get no argument from me, but take a look at the front 7 his team has had during his tenure there. He doesn't have to do the stuff Taylor has had to this year because he can simply sit back and ball hawk; he lets the front 7 handle runs for the most part because he knows they can. He had 59 total tackles this year; about half as many as Taylor...again what does that tell you? Another thing to keep in mind is that, as we have all read, Williams was trying to use a Cover 2 but also defend against the run with it even though it is usually only used in pass situations unless you have the personnel all over to use a Tampa 2 or Cover 2 in that way like the Bears. The Skins simply didn't have good enough talent at many positions to do that but he refused to change it, and as a result certain players had to try and take up the slack for others. Again, I am not claiming he is perfect or that he didn't sometimes overplay the ball or make mistakes...every player makes mistakes, no matter who they are. But looking at all that I have presented and watching him in action and then calling him a bust is simply silly. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregpeck99 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 The alarming thing about Taylor is he seems to be regressing ... not improving. He's had 3 full seasons under his belt and his production trend is going in reverse. This year should have been his breakout year ... in the Rams and Giants games he played ike a deer stuck in the headlights with total loss of confidence. Did he mail it in? Perhaps ... Does he have a "tude"? probably ... Will he implode? Who wants to find out. In my book, his selection over Winslow was a collossal mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 The alarming thing about Taylor is he seems to be regressing ... not improving. He's had 3 full seasons under his belt and his production trend is going in reverse. Please see above. My post was pretty long, I doubt you could have missed it completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 In my book, his selection over Winslow was a collossal mistake. Go ahead and compare Winslow's stat's to the TE we got that year in the 3rd round. Cooley beats him out in almost every major category: TDs, Avg yards, YAC, 20+ yard plays, 40+ yard plays. Thanks but I think I'll stick with taking Taylor and then Cooley in 04. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregpeck99 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I'm sorry Mistertim ... I don't buy the excuse that Taylor's lack of performance was due to others performing badly around him ... he simply does not execute as an NFL safety should ... and I don't see objectively without burgundy-colored eyes how you can paper it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I'm sorry Mistertim ... I don't buy the excuse that Taylor's lack of performance was due to others performing badly around him ... he simply does not execute as an NFL safety should ... and I don't see objectively without burgundy-colored eyes how you can paper it over. So you dispute the notion that a horrible front 7 can dramatically affect DB play? Lack of performance? He led the team in tackles...as a FS. Do you dispute the numbers I showed and their logical implications? If my logic is flawed please tell me what the changes in certain numbers in relation to others means as opposed to just saying "I don't buy it". And please, don't talk about "papering it over" as though I suddenly brought up stats out of the blue. You were the one who started that by talking about how him not having enough INTs and Pass Def showed that he was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 So you dispute the notion that a horrible front 7 can dramatically affect DB play? Lack of performance? He led the team in tackles...as a FS. Do you dispute the numbers I showed and their logical implications? If my logic is flawed please tell me what the changes in certain numbers in relation to others means as opposed to just saying "I don't buy it". And please, don't talk about "papering it over" as though I suddenly brought up stats out of the blue. You were the one who started that by talking about how him not having enough INTs and Pass Def showed that he was bad. It's because he can't dispute it with facts...I've said as much throughout this thread. Dawkins' 3rd year he had 59 tackles, 1 FF, 2 INTs, 7 PDs Reed's 3rd year? (8 games), 34 tackles, 1 FF, 4 INTs, 7 PDs Both of them had the benefit of playing on much better defenses...with teams that didn't decide to jettison all their impact defensive players off the team. Noone said he played up to his capability...but he played closer to his, than the defense did as a whole. It wasn't like he was a contributing factor as to why the Skins were the 2nd worst defensive team in football in '06. Without his 4 turnovers which accounted for 1/3 of our defense's total takeaways...we would've easily been worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregpeck99 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 A horrible front 7 can actually enable terrific dbs to stand out because of all the action they get. Taylor stood out by not making the plays he should have ... he simply does not make enough plays ... big or otherwise ... to command the adulation he gets on this site. BTW, if the Skins had taken Winslow ... they would not have taken Cooley (whom they traded up for) ... it is purely speculative as to whom they would have taken instaed ... so I won't go there. At the time of the 2004 Draft ... I through a brick thru my TV when Taylor was selected and events have not proven me wrong. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 A horrible front 7 can actually enable terrific dbs to stand out because of all the action they get. Taylor stood out by not making the plays he should have ... he simply does not make enough plays ... big or otherwise ... to command the adulation he gets on this site. BTW, if the Skins had taken Winslow ... they would not have taken Cooley (whom they traded up for) ... it is purely speculative as to whom they would have taken instaed ... so I won't go there. At the time of the 2004 Draft ... I through a brick thru my TV when Taylor was selected and events have not proven me wrong. Sorry. A horrible front 7 can enable elite shutdown CBs to stand out when they are one on one since they can showcase their abilities. But who cares about that if you are giving up big runs or other big plays whenever the QB, who has 7 seconds to pick a receiver, throws to someone else? Safeties are another matter, especially when you're talking about zone schemes. Pretty much any team with a horrible front 7 is going to give up a good amount of big plays. Why? The exact reasons I talked about before. Can't stop the run so safeties have to come up and help with that (hence our FS having 111 tackles this year) and that also causes the safeties to play closer to the LOS to support the run meaning that when there is a pass play the safeties are at an immediate disadvantage since they are by default in situation of playing catch-up. Part of this was also the scheme, as I said before as well. GW was trying to use a Cover 2 to play the run and the pass, but we didn't have enough talent in many positions to do that and he seemingly refused to accept that. Tell me what you'd like to have seen Taylor do. You complain about him not having many INTs, etc so do you want him to just hang back ala Ed Reed? Sure, he would have more INTs that way, but then who would have made all of those tackles when a RB broke through our front 7? That would probably make it a 20 yard run as opposed to a 5 yard run. You need to pick your poison. Do you want a FS who gets lots of tackles because he comes up to support a terrible front 7 or do you want one who just sits back and waits for the ball to be thrown up so he can log an INT, no matter what happens with the run game? Taylor isn't that kind of player. He isn't going to just sit there and decide to focus on one thing at the expense of another. As so many people have said, he had to do a lot this year and even though he had a subpar year he did pretty well considering. As for him not being a playmaker I think most coaches and players would likely disagree with you. But, again, you know more than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emor09 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 A horrible front 7 can actually enable terrific dbs to stand out because of all the action they get. Taylor stood out by not making the plays he should have ... he simply does not make enough plays ... big or otherwise ... to command the adulation he gets on this site. BTW, if the Skins had taken Winslow ... they would not have taken Cooley (whom they traded up for) ... it is purely speculative as to whom they would have taken instaed ... so I won't go there. At the time of the 2004 Draft ... I through a brick thru my TV when Taylor was selected and events have not proven me wrong. Sorry. i guess u dont like beating tampa in th playoffs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megared Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 You must mean plays like stripping Marion Barber in a crucial 3rd quarter stretch...giving your offense the ball on the Dallas 30 down only a TD? Or intercepting Jake Delhomme at the end of the Carolina game to seal it? No mention of him returning the blocked FG kick 30 yards versus Dallas? You aren't being honest with yourself. A horrible front seven is going to make a FS look better? All it gives them is more tackles (which he got). You'd rather have a guy that made a boneheaded decision that cost himself 2 years (- 2 games) of his football career? Bottomline is, all you're looking at are the mistakes, and miscues and dumping them all on his shoulders...when some of those plays he had to fly from his responsibility just to miss a tackle...why not talk about those LBs that didn't even succeed in slowing down the RB so that he isn't hitting the hole fullspeed? Or the fact that (with Springs out) Taylor had the role of playing a deep half of the field AND run support? Because you know it'd be inconvenient to your flawed logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey56 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 A horrible front 7 can actually enable terrific dbs to stand out because of all the action they get. Taylor stood out by not making the plays he should have ... he simply does not make enough plays ... big or otherwise ... to command the adulation he gets on this site. BTW, if the Skins had taken Winslow ... they would not have taken Cooley (whom they traded up for) ... it is purely speculative as to whom they would have taken instaed ... so I won't go there. At the time of the 2004 Draft ... I through a brick thru my TV when Taylor was selected and events have not proven me wrong. Sorry. You keep talking about his lack of big plays, but how many big plays has he prevented? A lot. I agree that sometimes he looks lost out there but come on, he's made some gave-saving plays for us. And just about every safety in the league gives up big plays from time to time. It happens. Pass coverage breaks down. Remember that MNF Dallas game? The much-heralded Roy Williams gave up those 2 TD's to Santana. It's easy to criticize when something goes wrong, but how about focusing on the good things that ST does? He causes fumbles, he returns fumbles, he won't let anyone come across the middle, and he hits the bejesus out of people. When he has the ball in his hands, although rare, his playmaking ability shines through. Most teams would kill for a safety like that, even if he did give up the occasional big play. Also judging by the amount of ST supporters on here, don't you think he must be somewhat decent? Remove any personal bias you have for him (whether it's because he's from Miami or because you just don't like him) and you may see what an amazing athlete he is. I get mad when he screws up too, but I also remember that he could easily make a great play the next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emor09 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 i'd like to see him at RB (i know its not possible) but when he gets the ball and is running around, you can tell he knows what he is doing. He set the Florida record for td's in a season with 44....i heard he had the choice of safety or rb at the u and he chose safety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aghar Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 If my memory serves me Aghar ... Taylor was also given a pass in 2005 ... but the magical mystery win streak of "6 in a row under Brunell" obscured all the criticism. In 2006 Taylor played to form ... lousy. His fans are so blinded by his physical talent and UM press ... they just can't acknowledge that he is a bust. Wow. I guess fans here either love him or hate him. Then again, those, like myself, who believe he is a good player that has his great moments and also his mental letdowns are stuck in the middle. Personally I think that the opinion of him being a "bust" is just as wrong as calling him the "best safety in the game today". :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riggoraider Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Wow. I guess fans here either love him or hate him. Then again, those, like myself, who believe he is a good player that has his great moments and also his mental letdowns are stuck in the middle. Personally I think that the opinion of him being a "bust" is just as wrong as calling him the "best safety in the game today". :2cents: Well said Aghar as I am one of the fans who are on the fence concerning his play. I think that most people are looking at the hard hits rather than the blown opportunitites. I think that some of those hits could have been turned into interceptions if he would have been concentrating on the pick instead of trying to kill the guy and I like what he does when he has the ball in his hands. Interceptions plus the hits probably would turn the tide from him being just a very good safety into one of, the if not THE, best safety in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 One thing I noticed this season on some plays this past season was a possible affect Taylors presence had on receivers that resulted in the receivers catching the ball. Oops. Dropped it. Oh. His play did seem to drop off at times this past season, but in no way do I believe that made him a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsngibbs4life Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 One thing I noticed this season on some plays this past season was a possible affect Taylors presence had on receivers that resulted in the receivers catching the ball. Oops. Dropped it. Oh. His play did seem to drop off at times this past season, but in no way do I believe that made him a bust. You sure those plays you saw wern't only against T.O.? because then I would have to say it was just T.O. not being to catch a football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Sack Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 What upsets me most about the past season was the fact that in the video you watch a bunch of Redskins miss tackle and ST finishing. And he finishes like he WANTS to win games. It's ashame the rest of the team doesn't play that way. A real shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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