Walt Harris,Carlos, and The GW System

[Soup]

Seeing Walt Harris upgraded to the pro-bowl has lead me to beileve, It may be the system which is ruining the defense. Everyone can say Walt Harris was or is a better cover guy then Archy or most anyone on our team excluding Carlos and Springs. But, everyone also can see Carlos Rogers is a better talented then Walt Harris. Greg Williams systems is more of a team oriented squad but at the high cost of developing talent. Walt Harris may have been constricted in this Defense and never allowed to show his talents. Just like carlos Rogers maybe being withheld from reaching his peak. What I'm saying is, when will it be time to start yelling for a change in Defensive philosophy and let go Greg Williams? The defense HAS continued to fall each year. The team is letting go of star players for team rejects.

[H-O-G]

it hurts to read this because I know its the truith.

[Riggo#44]

Seeing Walt Harris upgraded to the pro-bowl has lead me to beileve' date=' It may be the system which is ruining the defense. Everyone can say Walt Harris was or is a better cover guy then Archy or most anyone on our team excluding Carlos and Springs. But, everyone also can see Carlos Rogers is a better talented then Walt Harris. Greg Williams systems is more of a team oriented squad but at the high cost of developing talent. Walt Harris may have been constricted in this Defense and never allowed to show his talents. Just like carlos Rogers maybe being withheld from reaching his peak. What I'm saying is, when will it be time to start yelling for a change in Defensive philosophy and let go Greg Williams? The defense HAS continued to fall each year. The team is letting go of star players for team rejects.[/quote']

What a difference a season makes. He was the next head coach 9 months ago!

I love how fickle fandom can be.

[CapitalDefense]

Sad, but there is some truth to this....

When a coach thinks his mastermind schemes and 25 packages are good enough to work reguardless of the talent he fields, you have a serious problem. When you listen to Greg Williams speak about his defense, he talks alot about the schemes of Dick LeBeau and Buddy Ryan.

GW you are not and never will be held in the same reguard as a Buddy Ryan. Like him or hate him, Buddy Ryan was a defensive mastermind, you are not!

[CapitalDefense]

What a difference a season makes. He was the next head coach 9 months ago!

I love how fickle fandom can be.

When Sean Payton can take a laughing stock franchise, replace 60% of the roster and make it to the NFC championship game in 1 year.

Thats todays NFL, like it or not!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

not sure i agree its our "system". harris was pretty bad last year if you guys remember, he got burned a lot and i think thats why he wasnt back. a system is a system, but theres no system in my memory that says "let this guy go past you" which is what harris did more often than not. and also, you guys are just looking at his numbers, 8 INTs. go look who he was picking off. his ints came in lumps, 3 against the worst offense and worst qb in oakland, 2 against an inexperienced rookie in Seneca wallace for Seattle, 1 against an over the hill brad johnson, and 2 were in the last game of the season, 1 from jake plummer who hadnt played in a month and isnt good to begin with, and 1 from young kid jay cutler who was under the pressure of trying to win one game to get to the playoffs.

so yes, 8 ints is good, but he wasnt picking off peyton manning or doing it consistently.

[ntotoro]

Greg Williams systems is more of a team oriented squad but at the high cost of developing talent. Walt Harris may have been constricted in this Defense and never allowed to show his talents.

That would be fine and dandy except that Walt was good two years ago and was injured at least half of the '05 season. He came along pretty well during and after his recovery, though.

Rogers' consistent drops of potential INT's and inability to cover a bowl of rice have nothing to do with the system.

[The Full Monty]

not sure i agree its our "system". harris was pretty bad last year if you guys remember, he got burned a lot and i think thats why he wasnt back. a system is a system, but theres no system in my memory that says "let this guy go past you" which is what harris did more often than not. and also, you guys are just looking at his numbers, 8 INTs. go look who he was picking off. his ints came in lumps, 3 against the worst offense and worst qb in oakland, 2 against an inexperienced rookie in Seneca wallace for Seattle, 1 against an over the hill brad johnson, and 2 were in the last game of the season, 1 from jake plummer who hadnt played in a month and isnt good to begin with, and 1 from young kid jay cutler who was under the pressure of trying to win one game to get to the playoffs.

so yes, 8 ints is good, but he wasnt picking off peyton manning or doing it consistently.

those are all good points, BlloydChristmas, but we played Brad Johnson, the same Brad Johnson that Walt Harris picked off, the same one you pointed out, and couldn't pick him off, in Week 1. Rookie Vince Young, AT HOME, in his first start and couldn't pick him off. We played Tony Romo sits to pee in his first start and couldn't pick him off. We played Eli fricking Manning, Mr. INT, twice, and couldn't pick him off. We played Bruce Gradkowski, a rookie with far less talent than Vince Young, and couldn't pick him off. We couldn't pick off Michael Vick.

Great, we picked off Drew Brees and David Carr, wow. We might've picked off a few other guys, but whatever.

My point is that we played some shoddy QB's this year, QB's like the ones you point out for Walt Harris, and we couldn't do ANYTHING while other teams had a ball.

[RedskinInExile]

What a difference a season makes. He was the next head coach 9 months ago!

I love how fickle fandom can be.

Nine months ago, he was the architect of a defense that, while not as great as the year before, was still top ten, and good enough to propel any team with a modicom of offensive production into the playoffs. Nine months later, the Redskin defense is the second worst in the league and anyone we play against seems to have career days against us

If you were brought in on any job in the world to help complete a "three year plan" to restructure an organization, and under your direction, your department experienced a catastrophic collapse, you'd be fired, and if anyone suggested you be given a promotion to CEO, they'd immediately be taken away for psychiatric care.

[casey56]

I think the system works, as GW proved when he came here. I just think that we've had a drop off in talent since his first year and we've had injury problems. Playing half the year without Springs really hurt us this year, along with Prioleau being out the entire season.

The other thing may be that GW's attitude has alienated his players. Didn't the anonymous source in that ESPN article mention that? I think he said that players get tired of his hard-nosed attitude. I'm not sure I agree with that but that's what the guy said. Personally I think that statement makes the defense look soft.

[KingGibbs]

What a difference a season makes. He was the next head coach 9 months ago!

I love how fickle fandom can be.

So true. Give the guy atleast one more season for crying out loud. Give him the parts and he'll get that motor running again, hopefully. If we have a repeat next year, then yes, his scheme can be questioned.

[Riggo#44]

So true. Give the guy atleast one more season for crying out loud. Give him the parts and he'll get that motor running again, hopefully. If we have a repeat next year, then yes, his scheme can be questioned.

Consistancey right now is the answer. No major changes. Make a few moves, maybe one big FA. But that's it.

[KingGibbs]

Nine months ago, he was the architect of a defense that, while not as great as the year before, was still top ten, and good enough to propel any team with a modicom of offensive production into the playoffs. Nine months later, the Redskin defense is the second worst in the league and anyone we play against seems to have career days against us

If you were brought in on any job in the world to help complete a "three year plan" to restructure an organization, and under your direction, your department experienced a catastrophic collapse, you'd be fired, and if anyone suggested you be given a promotion to CEO, they'd immediately be taken away for psychiatric care.

In spite of our defensive woes a HUGE part of our problem was the lack of TO's because our whole damn defense had the case of Romo sits to pee hand's. Not to mention the amount of missed tackles. Not to mention the impact the injuries had on our defense.

Look, I think Williams can be a stubborn and arrogant ass, but if you were going to write him off after a setback, you could say the same about Gibbs.

[TheLongshot]

My point is that we played some shoddy QB's this year, QB's like the ones you point out for Walt Harris, and we couldn't do ANYTHING while other teams had a ball.

I think that all goes with not being able to stop the run. When the other team can run at will, it makes it a lot easier for the QB. Fact is, if you force the QB to make plays, he's more likely to make mistakes.

As for Harris, he had an up and down season last year. He had some bad games, but he was pretty solid for the first half of the season. I understand why the Redskins went the way they went, trying to get younger at CB while upgrading the position. Unfortunately, Wright wasn't an upgrade.

Jason

[The Full Monty]

So true. Give the guy atleast one more season for crying out loud. Give him the parts and he'll get that motor running again, hopefully. If we have a repeat next year, then yes, his scheme can be questioned.

Count me as a Williams backer, but it's entirely legitimate to question why we tried stopping the run with our safeties playing a deep cover 2. Worst instance was in Giants Game 2, even Collinsworth could see the futility of the scheme we were using.

[da#1skinsfan]

UGH. The SYSTEM didnt get its ankles broken consistently. The SYSTEM didnt get burnt on posts.

The SYSTEM didnt make Walt Harris any less of a physical player to get dominated by larger receivers.

Why does there always have to be blame on the Skins with you people? Do you think maybe, MAYBE, credit should be given to Walt Harris? That he worked hard in the offseason, improved his game, and performed?

[RedskinInExile]

In spite of our defensive woes a HUGE part of our problem was the lack of TO's because our whole damn defense had the case of Romo sits to pee hand's. Not to mention the amount of missed tackles. Not to mention the impact the injuries had on our defense.

Look, I think Williams can be a stubborn and arrogant ass, but if you were going to write him off after a setback, you could say the same about Gibbs.

I'm defintely not writing him off-- he did take a crap defense when he came aboard and remade it into the 3rd ranked D out there. But, after such an ambysmal season, all eyes will be on him. He better spend every waking hour of the offseason figuring out where he went wrong and how to correct it.

As he's already demonstrated, he can be a great defensive coordinator. The test will be next season. If he can show that last season was a fluke/injuries/bad luck, he'll win back a lot of supporters. But if not, its time for us to part ways before we do something stupid and give him the keys to the franchise

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

. When you listen to Greg Williams speak about his defense, he talks alot about the schemes of Dick LeBeau and Buddy Ryan.

GW you are not and never will be held in the same reguard as a Buddy Ryan. Like him or hate him, Buddy Ryan was a defensive mastermind, you are not!

Out of curiosity would you rather have Gregg Williams quoting Steve Spurier on how a defense should work.

Williams may not be as good as Buddy Ryan or Dick LeBeau, but he is certainly good enough to copycat em, which he did to with success in 2004 and 2005.

I don't think it is fair to rip Williams despite this years abysmal defense. Firstly ou #1 CB and our best cover saftey both went down. 2nd our LB corp included Warrick Holdman as a starter and a severely undersized Lemar Marshall at MLB. 3rdly on the D-Line Salavae went down with injury and was hampered all season long. While big Joe isn't a pro-bowl DT, he was an excellent run stuffer in 2005. And finally it took quite a while for new acquisition Andre Carter to find his groove but once he did he excelled.

Williams had at least one major issue in each unit on defense. He may not be the defensive genius needed to protect 3or 4 weaknesses on D, but with the right personnell he has shown he can shine.

[Riggo#44]

GW you are not and never will be held in the same reguard as a Buddy Ryan. Like him or hate him, Buddy Ryan was a defensive mastermind, you are not!

It's easy to be a mastermind when you are coaching the likes of Mike Singletary, Richard Dent, Dan Hampton, Mark Carrier (in his prime), Reggie White, Clyde Simmons, Seth Joyner, etc...

[CBass1724]

GW needs to realize he needs players to make his system work. Just because he had "no name" players execute his defense, did not mean they weren't good players. They were just unheard of.

As soon as he realizes this then he will be golden. Unfortunately he never will because his ego is too large.

Once he gets a good D-line with a great pass rush, then he can do whatever he wants as far as his "packages" and blitzes.

[deejaydana]

Why do so many posters on this board never mention that the Niners defense was one of the worst in the league? It's easy to be a star when you're surrounded by schmucks. I think the biggest loss of Walt Harris' departure was his professionalism and not really what he did on the field for us (as much). In his last season with the Skins he was burned continually folks.

[e16bball]

I guess the Bears and Colts need to have their systems evaluated as well, because Walt never made the Pro Bowl with them either. In fact, he never had more than 5 INTs in his entire NFL career, even when he was a full-time starter.

The guy apparently played well this season, and I'm glad for him. But to say that the fact that he came up with 8 picks this season is a condemnation on GW's system seems like a pretty drastic step.

[Bang]

So why do these dumbass threads totally ignore the REST of Walt Harris' career?

He went and made the Pro Bowl one time in TWELVE seasons.

One in TWELVE.

Put him in the damn Hall of Fame already.

Hey, he was playing for Mike Nolan and Norv Turner! They used to be here, too! Maybe we should have kept them!

God, we're so stupid!

~Bang

[Stew]

those are all good points, BlloydChristmas, but we played Brad Johnson, the same Brad Johnson that Walt Harris picked off, the same one you pointed out, and couldn't pick him off, in Week 1. Rookie Vince Young, AT HOME, in his first start and couldn't pick him off. We played Tony Romo sits to pee in his first start and couldn't pick him off. We played Eli fricking Manning, Mr. INT, twice, and couldn't pick him off. We played Bruce Gradkowski, a rookie with far less talent than Vince Young, and couldn't pick him off. We couldn't pick off Michael Vick.

Great, we picked off Drew Brees and David Carr, wow. We might've picked off a few other guys, but whatever.

My point is that we played some shoddy QB's this year, QB's like the ones you point out for Walt Harris, and we couldn't do ANYTHING while other teams had a ball.

No matter what anyone says rationally, it wont please you. The system creates oppritunities to make INT's, the system doesnt grab the ball and close the DB's hands. No system in the world can correct the catching ability of Carlos "hands like feet" Rogers. We picked off Drew Brees, who is a lot better then any of the QB's you bring up but you disregard it by saying "Whatever". Springs was hurt, PP was hurt, Rogers cant catch, Kenny Wright sucks. Its that simple. Please stop blaming the inabilities of the players on the defensive coach. 2004 and 2005 he had a top ten defense, last season injuries hurt us and there was instability in the defense. Walt Harris is not the reason we had a top ten defense both of those years. :laugh: How many pick/6's did Rogers drop? Did you look that stat up? Who were the QB's that he dropped the INT's from? So if Rogers had caught those INT's you wouldnt have a leg to stand on. The defense was bad because we had underperforming players like Rogers, and Holdman, and Arch, and Wright, ect. Now these are players, they wernt concieved and born from a system. Ill bet you loved GW as long as he was producing stellar seasons, but the first time in his tenure here he doesnt have a top flight defense and you throw him under the bus!?! WTF!?! Christ, is GW the cause of global warming and the hole in the ozone layer too? Maybe it was GW that started the Iraq war... or was that Danny and Cerrato's fault?? :doh:

[Canadian Hog]

It's amazing how all of a sudden a bad year defensively makes so many people have a bad memory.

I seem to remember a few guys who made strides under a Williams' coached defense....Joe Salave'a, Marcus Washington, and Lemar Marshall just to name a few. We were all giving praise to guys like this during our playoff run two seasons ago and marvelling at what a great job they were doing within the system. Heck, Shawn Springs was being dogged in Seattle and being tagged as "burned toast" by their fans. He comes over to Washington, puts together two strong years and Williams got so much credit from us. We were even singing praise to the progress and pleasant surprise given to us by guys like Demetric Evans during the playoff year. Throw in the nice rebound year made by Phillip Daniels two years ago....Williams got some credit for that one too I suspect.

Let's keep in mind that when Williams first arrived, everybody crapped their pants going into that season fearing that our defense would be a major crippling point. If memory serves me correct, we were pleasantly surprised and everybody started to pay attention to our defensive capabilities around the league.

Winning is hard in this league. Establishing consistency in today's NFL in even harder.

Williams had passed with flying colours in two of three years here. He has earned the right to stay on board. Players have shared responsibility in last year's fiasco on defense as well.

I'd be willing to bet that the same people who want Gregg gone are many of the same ones who cry because we have lacked consistency in coaching over the years.