Mike Williams v Carlos Rogers - a final conclusion, and more on our front office

[deejaydana]

This is a good post for the simple reason that, despite what many contend on this board, the draft is far from a perfect science. You are going to have hit and miss scenarios, stars as well as busts. That being said, ALL I want our organization to comprehend which it seems to have forgotten in recent years, is that we must hold onto our draft picks. It is the only proven way to build a winner over time and keep the team's spending money for the future. Good post though!

[Rskins06]

It's smart to stick to a plan that is working. It's stupid to stick to a plan that isn't.

If you think the current plan is working, then you will be in favor of sticking with it. But, the argument that we need to stick for the sake of sticking to it is bogus.

Sound plans make sense and usually show results right away. The Jets are duplicating the Patriots plan. They've made a quick turnaround. But even if they backslide, they'll stick with it because it makes sense and they're seeing results.

You are absolutely right, what we need to do is change the entire system again, bring in new players to add to a new system, and then next year when it flops, we can repeat the same process until we find one that works. How do you know a system isn't working when you only give it a year to work. This is the main problem, we didn't need to change the ENTIRE offensive system this year, Gibbs offensive system works, we only needed WR's to take the pressure off of Santana and they got 2 of them. That was a huge mistake and cost us the season.

[Riggins Seventy Chip]

This is a good post for the simple reason that, despite what many contend on this board, the draft is far from a perfect science. You are going to have hit and miss scenarios, stars as well as busts. That being said, ALL I want our organization to comprehend which it seems to have forgotten in recent years, is that we must hold onto our draft picks. It is the only proven way to build a winner over time and keep the team's spending money for the future. Good post though!

Right, there are hits and misses. That is why to maximize the hits, a team should do two things:

1. Value and keep their draft picks

2. Hire and give authority to a proven and successful draft analyist / GM

[Tastes Like Chicken]

Hindsight is 20/20. In the draft before last, maybe there was just a lot of fool's gold. We had a top 10 pick, and the guys I was interested in most were Mike Williams, Pacman Jones and Carlos Rogers. I'd say that I would probably be disappointed in any of those 3 right now. Rogers takes a lot of heat because he was such a high pick, but the draft is a crap shoot, pure and simple. This year's #9 pick may end up being a perennial Pro Bowler, or might be a bust (Williams) or might be serviceable (Carlos).

Believe you me, no one has been beating their head against a chair more than me when Carlos drops a sure INT or allows a 12-yard cushion on 3rd and 3. Our dancing CB may end up being no more than a #2 or #3 CB and we'll just have to live with that.

[Sebowski]

Isn't Merriman serving a steroids-induced suspension? He may be a force, but do you really want that distraction on your team?

It was a supplement. Chargers won all 4 games he missed, and his return game. I don't think they were very distracted.

[TheLongshot]

Sound plans make sense and usually show results right away. The Jets are duplicating the Patriots plan. They've made a quick turnaround. But even if they backslide, they'll stick with it because it makes sense and they're seeing results.

And how is that much different than our situation? The plan was good enough last year to get us into the playoffs.

Maybe the problem is that this year, we went off the plan a bit. Certainly, some of the decisions seemed to contradict each other. (Doing some things, like getting Duckett, that were aimed for going to the Super Bowl, while doing other things, like Saunders, that was about the future of the franchise.)

All I know is that until this year, Gibbs mostly made the right moves. That gives me the benefit of the doubt that, for the most part, Gibbs is leading us down the right path.

Jason

[Jimbo]

You can't really compare Mike Williams with Carlo Rogers because, after all, Williams IS in Detroit. There's no telling what his play would be like had he ended up with the Skins but I'mm 100% certain it would be a LOT better than it has been in the Motor City.

The draft simply isn't about taking the best athlete available anymore. With Free Agency alive and well and guys switching teams, the draft is about filling needs. If the pick wasn't Williams, we all pretty much KNEW it would be Rogers or Merriman. Rogers was the right pick at the time because we had a bigger need at that position.

Although we don't know how Merriman would have fit into Gregg Williams' scheme or how much playing time he would have had his rookie year (see Rocky MacIntosh), hindsight being 20/20 though, I'd take Merriman if we could do it all over again.

[Oldfan]

And how is that much different than our situation? The plan was good enough last year to get us into the playoffs.

The Jet's started with a 4-12 team, a salary cap problem, an aged roster, and lost key starters to free agency. They accumulated 12 draft picks in trades and built the O line with top picks D'Brick and Mangold. They are 7-6 now, but whether they make the playoffs or not this season is unimportant. They clearly have a good plan and are headed for success.

We are 21-26 in Gibbs 2.0, with only a few draft picks and a roster lacking depth due to a 'build through free agency' approach. A couple of injuries and our season is done.

I see a difference in the two situations.

[Bryan81]

Rogers wears yellow gloves - other then that is there anything cool about him?

[RedskinzOwnU]

The Jet's started with a 4-12 team, a salary cap problem, an aged roster, and lost key starters to free agency. They accumulated 12 draft picks in trades and built the O line with top picks D'Brick and Mangold. They are 7-6 now, but whether they make the playoffs or not this season is unimportant. They clearly have a good plan and are headed for success.

We are 21-26 in Gibbs 2.0, with only a few draft picks and a roster lacking depth due to a 'build through free agency' approach.

I see a difference in the two situations.

I agree. They are collecting a core of young really good players and we are not building for the future. We don't have any picks to even start that process this year.

[Buck812]

As has been proven, it was not Brunell's fault that the offense and this team were/are so bad.

Ah Brunnell..... Nothing but a bad memory

[cphil006]

worst move of them all:

Trung Canidate signing.

at least he didn;t get a huge deal.

[TheLongshot]

The Jet's started with a 4-12 team, a salary cap problem, an aged roster, and lost key starters to free agency. They accumulated 12 draft picks in trades and built the O line with top picks D'Brick and Mangold. They are 7-6 now, but whether they make the playoffs or not this season is unimportant. They clearly have a good plan and are headed for success.

We are 21-26 in Gibbs 2.0, with only a few draft picks and a roster lacking depth due to a 'build through free agency' approach. A couple of injuries and our season is done.

I see a difference in the two situations.

I also see one difference in the situation: Mangini inherited a better team than Gibbs did. Sure, they were 4-12 last year, but for the 4 years previously, they had a winning record. Why is that?

For the same reason why this season isn't a disaster for the Jets: getting Chad Pennington and Coles back into form. Granted, they haven't been perfect, but they are a big reason why they are where they are.

Sure, they drafted a lot of players. But, other than Mangold and Ferguson, how are they contributing? They certainly aren't starting. Most of them are the vets that were left over from the Edwards days or free agents. Who knows if those other draft picks will turn out to be good players?

Meanwhile, the roster Gibbs inherited from three different coaching staffs over 4 years was a complete mess. How many of those players are left from when he took over? Less than half, I'm sure. The Skins are a far bigger rebuilding job than the Jets are, and it was pretty amazing he was able to get this team up to playoff calibur last year.

Despite what you think, I do think that Gibbs is building this team for the future. The front office just has different ideas of how to do that. I don't think there is one "right" way of building a team. It is all about finding the mix of stuff that works for you.

Jason

[lovetoaster]

It was a supplement. Chargers won all 4 games he missed, and his return game. I don't think they were very distracted.

Don't get me wrong, Merriman is a hell of a football player. But, unless I am wrong, he tested positive for Nandrolone, which is an injectible steroid. I don't really buy the supplement excuse.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

Did we just have to have Rocky that bad last April, that we needed to give up that 2nd rounder to move up and get him? He hasn't been on the defense save for a handful of times this year. That 2nd round pick is going to be a high 2nd rounder, and would've given us a quality player this year.

[cphil006]

Don't get me wrong, Merriman is a hell of a football player. But, unless I am wrong, he tested positive for Nandrolone, which is an injectible steroid. I don't really buy the supplement excuse.

I agree with you there. That is a potent steriod. No supplement sold at GNC or legally anywhere has that in it.

He was trying ot BS his way out of it. He backed down realizing he would not win and would rather serve the suspension sooner than later during a playoff run.

If his play drops off we will know why

[jbooma]

Who cares about Rogers we should have drafted Merriman, you know the kid from DC and played ball in MD a little bit up the street from here :doh:

[Oldfan]

Despite what you think, I do think that Gibbs is building this team for the future. The front office just has different ideas of how to do that. I don't think there is one "right" way of building a team. It is all about finding the mix of stuff that works for you.

I agree there is not just one right way. But, whatever you do has to make sense. If we had a plan that was working, we wouldn't be hearing Joe talk about the "huge offseason deal here" trying to fix the mistakes they've made.

If you build through the draft, you only have to hit at a good average. Your mistakes aren't costly. If you make mistakes in free agency, they hurt.

[TheLongshot]

I agree there is not just one right way. But, whatever you do has to make sense. If we had a plan that was working, we wouldn't be hearing Joe talk about the "huge offseason deal here" trying to fix the mistakes they've made.

Whenever you have a season where you don't do nearly as well as you expect, you are going to reexamine everything you have done during the season, including the players you aquired, and maybe you had some needs that you didn't realise you had.

But, when you hear Joe talk, you don't hear any regret about the players he has aquired. He seems quite happy with the team he's put together so far, and is determined to make it work. Now, the offseason could say something else, but I'm not expecting a whole lot of turnover in the guys we have, or that much of a change in philosophy. (It would surprise me at all if we figure out a way to trade into the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round to pick up another player, for example.)

If you build through the draft, you only have to hit at a good average. Your mistakes aren't costly. If you make mistakes in free agency, they hurt.

If you constantly make mistakes in the draft, they hurt as well. I mean, look at Detroit, who picked WR 3 straight times in the draft and managed to hit just once. Look at all the lackluster drafts Casserly had in the Norv years.

I think Gibbs had hit a lot more than missed with FA. When you come right down to it, the only misses in FA he's had have been Barrow and Arch, and the book isn't nessicarily done with Arch either.

Most of the problems Gibbs had had to deal with are problems he inherited from his predecessors. Champ wanting out, Coles not being happy, Lavar being, well, Lavar, amonst others.

Jason

[Chump Bailey]

I agree with you there. That is a potent steriod. No supplement sold at GNC or legally anywhere has that in it.

He was trying ot BS his way out of it. He backed down realizing he would not win and would rather serve the suspension sooner than later during a playoff run.

If his play drops off we will know why

Just my .02, but I have heard very much to the contrary - now these prohormone supplements are nowhere near as potent as the real deal (and I am speaking from some experience, not claiming to be an expert or anything, but I have done a couple of cycles) they likely can lead to a positive result in a drug test. The 19 diol's (I have heard) can lead to a positive result for nandrolone / Deca Durabolin...

[Oldfan]

Jason --- I'm not expecting a whole lot of turnover in the guys we have, or that much of a change in philosophy. (It would surprise me at all if we figure out a way to trade into the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round to pick up another player, for example.)

Your expectations coming to pass wouldn't surprise me either, but I'm hoping for far more.

If you constantly make mistakes in the draft, they hurt as well. I mean, look at Detroit, who picked WR 3 straight times in the draft and managed to hit just once. Look at all the lackluster drafts Casserly had in the Norv years.

That's why you need a GM with a good resume. But my point...that you can afford mistakes in the draft...stands. It's about money also, you can sign most of your draft picks (except the top ten) to bargain contracts. Overpaying for free agent starters sucks up cap space that could be used for depth. And this is true even if you do the 'cash over cap' gimmick.

[Chump Bailey]

Whenever you have a season where you don't do nearly as well as you expect, you are going to reexamine everything you have done during the season, including the players you aquired, and maybe you had some needs that you didn't realise you had.

But, when you hear Joe talk, you don't hear any regret about the players he has aquired. He seems quite happy with the team he's put together so far, and is determined to make it work. Now, the offseason could say something else, but I'm not expecting a whole lot of turnover in the guys we have, or that much of a change in philosophy. (It would surprise me at all if we figure out a way to trade into the 2nd, 3rd or 4th round to pick up another player, for example.)

If you constantly make mistakes in the draft, they hurt as well. I mean, look at Detroit, who picked WR 3 straight times in the draft and managed to hit just once. Look at all the lackluster drafts Casserly had in the Norv years.

I think Gibbs had hit a lot more than missed with FA. When you come right down to it, the only misses in FA he's had have been Barrow and Arch, and the book isn't nessicarily done with Arch either.

Most of the problems Gibbs had had to deal with are problems he inherited from his predecessors. Champ wanting out, Coles not being happy, Lavar being, well, Lavar, amonst others.

Jason

Although I am in the camp that believes we would benefit from a good GM, and I also think Gibbs has made some costly errors in the personell department - your reasoning for feeling otherwise is logical and well thought out. Good stuff, not emotional garbage. Remind me not to get in a verbal sparring match with you anytime soon...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Whenever you have a season where you don't do nearly as well as you expect, you are going to reexamine everything you have done during the season, including the players you aquired, and maybe you had some needs that you didn't realise you had.

What about when you have 8 years where you don't do as well as expected? And, yes, last year was a neat year, but it took a five game winning streak against some banged-up teams to make it special. I'm not sure if 2005 was good planning or just lightning in a bottle? The fact that we won a playoff game with the offensive production we had is the very definition of "fluky."

[Guest mwill008]

Alot of what happen to Rogers is not his fault. The defense on a whole has be pitful. I think we need a DB more than a DE.

[Skins4481]

It was a supplement. Chargers won all 4 games he

missed, and his return game. I don't think they were very distracted.

Please dont tell me you actually believe in the 'it was a supplement' garbage that he said.