Mike Williams v Carlos Rogers - a final conclusion, and more on our front office

[umstew42]

Hindsight is 20/20.....if everyone knew how much of a force Merriman would be they all would have drafted him..

If we all play that game then......WHY DIDN'T we draft MARQUES GOLSTON or DEVON HESTER?????????????

People take chances in the draft. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't

[jbooma]

Hindsight is 20/20.....if everyone knew how much of a force Merriman would be they all would have drafted him..

If we all play that game then......WHY DIDN'T we draft MARQUES GOLSTON or DEVON HESTER?????????????

People take chances in the draft. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't

I believe many teams has Merriman high on their board, so they did believe he would be a force.

My issue with the skins is he went to md was born in dc, those are the type of players you take more time with because of the additional publicity you can get with them.

Reminds me of Texas how they can not draft Vince Young who is from Texas and brought Texas a national champsionship is beyond me, yes Bush would have been nice as well but Vince could turn that organization around over night.

[TheLongshot]

Your expectations coming to pass wouldn't surprise me either, but I'm hoping for far more.

More? As in what?

That's why you need a GM with a good resume. But my point...that you can afford mistakes in the draft...stands. It's about money also, you can sign most of your draft picks (except the top ten) to bargain contracts. Overpaying for free agent starters sucks up cap space that could be used for depth. And this is true even if you do the 'cash over cap' gimmick.

Depends on what you mean by "overpay". If the budget works out in the end, what does it matter what players get paid?

And a bargain contract isn't always a bargain when it comes time to reup the guy, or if he doesn't even become useful until it comes close to FA.

I'm not saying that the draft is worthless, but what I am saying is that there is a logic to what Gibbs is doing. It is also something that I don't think we will need to do much more of, since most of the nucleus is here.

Although I am in the camp that believes we would benefit from a good GM, and I also think Gibbs has made some costly errors in the personell department - your reasoning for feeling otherwise is logical and well thought out. Good stuff, not emotional garbage. Remind me not to get in a verbal sparring match with you anytime soon...

Thanks for the compliment. It is nice to know that I can get some respect from the disenting opinion.

In the end, all the talk about "We want a GM" is more about wanting the team to make the right decisions and get back to winning. It doesn't matter if it is a GM or the present structure.

Until this year, Gibbs seemed to have a good plan going on. There were few moves that you could question. You could question the price we paid, maybe, but the moves themselves seemed sound. For some reason, the plan went awry this year. What I do expect from Gibbs is that he will get to the bottom of what went wrong, and that we are not going to have a repeat of this year. The players on this team are too good to be playing like this.

Jason

[TheLongshot]

One more thing that is forgotten about Merriman that may have been an obstacle in drafting him. (Other than that we had Lavar already and that we had a strong need for a CB)

His agents: the Poston Brothers.

Considering how the whole Lavar thing went down, that would leave me reluctant to deal with them.

Jason

[jbooma]

Until this year, Gibbs seemed to have a good plan going on. There were few moves that you could question. You could question the price we paid, maybe, but the moves themselves seemed sound. For some reason, the plan went awry this year. What I do expect from Gibbs is that he will get to the bottom of what went wrong, and that we are not going to have a repeat of this year. The players on this team are too good to be playing like this.

Jason

I completely disagree, the majority of the moves he has made has failed. Gibbs needs to just worry about coaching. It has been proven time and time again that a coach can not do both jobs, if Parcells can give it up then why can't Gibbs??

It took Joe over half the season to get a hold of his team, and by then it was too late. He can't handle all that work, no one can.

If Gibbs does not bring someone else to make the decisions then it is clear to me he can not see the problem, which is himself. Even though he has already hinted that is what is going to happen, there will be someone else making the calls next year in the office.

[jbooma]

One more thing that is forgotten about Merriman that may have been an obstacle in drafting him. (Other than that we had Lavar already and that we had a strong need for a CB)

His agents: the Poston Brothers.

Considering how the whole Lavar thing went down, that would leave me reluctant to deal with them.

Jason

If you start letting the agents change who you want to select then you are letting them win, you have to put what is best for the team, and if that means dealing with a player with an agent you do not like, then so be it.

[TheLongshot]

I completely disagree, the majority of the moves he has made has failed. Gibbs needs to just worry about coaching. It has been proven time and time again that a coach can not do both jobs, if Parcells can give it up then why can't Gibbs??

The majority? What majority is that? I could list a long list of players who have done well since being brought into the fold. Moss, Cooley, Portis, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, and the list goes on.

It took Joe over half the season to get a hold of his team, and by then it was too late. He can't handle all that work, no one can.

Which is one reason why he hired Saunders.

The problems of the offense can easily be explained by the installation of a new offense and the struggles with the QB with it. I expect that process to go smoother next year.

As for the defense, maybe it means that Gibbs needs a better line of communication. But, that may have been coming no matter what since Gibbs back in the old days pretty much left that side of the ball alone when Pettibon was running things. That hasn't changed.

If Gibbs does not bring someone else to make the decisions then it is clear to me he can not see the problem, which is himself. Even though he has already hinted that is what is going to happen, there will be someone else making the calls next year in the office.

He has not made such hints. In fact, he gets asked a lot of leading questions on that, and he is careful to say that while he may be open to it, it doesn't mean that is what is going to happen. Everything will be looked at.

Jason

[Monk4theHall81]

Regardless of anything good or bad anyone has to say about Carlos, he is not a top 10 pick, and is at best a late 1st round pick which is where everyone had him in the mocks before the Skins started letting the cat out of the bag that we wanted him. The pick here was Merriman, LA's protege, could have played DE, we wouldnt have spent that money on Carter (I like Carter and think he will be good here) and could have spent less on stop gap like Sam Madison, Ty Law, RW McQuarter, Patrick Surtain, on and on.

Lets stop defending Carlos, he quit on that play against the Bucs was smiling after he dropped the pick this week against the Eagles, and was dancing around after letting that punt go through his legs a few weeks back. You would never see a real pro especially the corners we have been used to act like that after messing up. He acts like oh well, Ill still get my check.

[jbooma]

The majority? What majority is that? I could list a long list of players who have done well since being brought into the fold. Moss, Cooley, Portis, Washington, Springs, Taylor, Griffin, and the list goes on.

do continue, the problem was his reasoning that we made it to the second round of the playoffs last year so we were a couple of fixes away from being a superbowl team

almost everything this offseason was a disaster, saunders, lloyd, cambell, brunell, tj, arch, Carter, holdman, a kicker, etc.... letting Taylors best friend leave

the only move that paid off in the offseason was Rande El, and that is all honestly we should have done, and looked at the liabilities we had at DB and and on the DL etc..

we now have taken a step back because our OL and DL are not getting any younger or better, our LB's are terrible besides Washington, we do not have many draft picks so have do not have the ability to get cheap players, we have players that have contract issues coming up like Jansen, Portis, Thomas etc..

This team is worse then when it started this year, and that is a problem because we don't have much ability to fix it.

[Oldfan]

Jason --

More? As in what?

As in what I've been talking about. A fundamental change in approach to acquiring personnel.

Depends on what you mean by "overpay". If the budget works out in the end, what does it matter what players get paid?

It matters because if you overpay players and spend X dollars, you get less talent for your money than if you find bargains and spend X dollars.

And a bargain contract isn't always a bargain when it comes time to reup the guy, or if he doesn't even become useful until it comes close to FA.

That's true. We can't be sure that Ladell's contract is a bargain at this point. But most teams are reupping the guy earlier in their careers. The player is willing to sign earlier, and forego the potential free agency payday, to eliminate the fear of an injury closing out his career.

I'm not saying that the draft is worthless, but what I am saying is that there is a logic to what Gibbs is doing. It is also something that I don't think we will need to do much more of, since most of the nucleus is here.

I understand your point and I know what Joe is thinking, but he's wrong and can be proven wrong with math. If you missed it, someone recently posted a study done by an economist which confirms the wisdom of the Patriots plan and trashes ours.

28 of the 32 teams in the league think they have a 'nucleus' and only need a couple of players to reach the elite status. Some think this every year until they slide down to the bottom.

There is more evidence on the table now. Would you pay Brunell $49 million and give up a third round draft choice if you had known he'd be 15-18 with a better supporting cast than Ramsey had in going 10-14?

Would you bring Portis in, giving up the equivalent of a #1 and a #2 and big bucks knowing that you had Ladell Betts here?

Those moves were made by an over-anxious win now attitude that seldom pays off in the NFL. They were made based on watching film and jumping to conclusions in evaluating players.

[stwasm]

Anyone who thinks we should have taken Mike Williams over Carlos Rogers, read below.

Detroit has been tight-lipped about Mike Williams' weight all season, but Mike Martz revealed this week that the former first-round pick is tipping the scales at 240 pounds, a full 20 pounds over the team's target in training camp. We're told Williams has been limited to the slot because, at 240, he simply doesn't have the speed to line up outside.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=2694181&CMP=ILC-INHEAD

[Chump Bailey]

Thanks for the compliment. It is nice to know that I can get some respect from the disenting opinion.

Sure thing, it's deserved...

In the end, all the talk about "We want a GM" is more about wanting the team to make the right decisions and get back to winning. It doesn't matter if it is a GM or the present structure.

Agree, winning solves everything. The moves seemed pretty solid at the time and I was excited at the start of the season I'll admit. While I was certainly aware of these players, Carter, Adam etc... I do not have the luxury of watching them play very often and obviously do not have access to any film of them over the years also. But the coaches do, and if there was any uncertainty at all about their effectiveness or exactly what roles they will play in each coach's respective scheme - then they should not have made such extravagant offers to obtain their services IMO...

We constantly hear how San Franciso, St. Louis and Jacksonville were laughing their collective as*es off at us for the contracts/picks we gave in order to get Lloyd, Adam and at the time Brunell...

Do not think for a second that Sean overlooked how much money they doled out to Adam...

That's what these guys get paid handsomely to do - evaluate and acquire talent. That's their full-time job and it could have been done much, much better IMO.

Carter seems to have turned a corner and that is very encouraging though I still think he is a liability against the run. He is a situational DE and not an everydown DE although that could change.

When you see guys available like Jevon Walker, Deon Branch or perhaps Jerry Porter - these are the guys you go after and if necessary throw multiple picks at - these guys are proven, tough, legit WR's. Either guy would have been able to take much more pressure off of Moss than Lloyd or even ARE IMO.

We paid a STEEP price for Jason who likely would have never even seen the field until the final year of his contract if Brunell had only been playing slightly better IMO.

[SkinsTillIDie]

You're actually comparing our front office to the Patriots... favorably? You must have missed this: your "desperate" Patriots are 9-4 and and have a two game lead atop their division. It's mindboggling that you'd compare the two front offices.

I never compared our front office "favorably" to the Patriots. I compared our front office with that of the Patriots' and the Colts' because in all three situations, the front office has elected to let key talent go, much to the great disdain of their respective fanbases. We let Ryan Clark/Antonio Pierce go, the Patriots let go Deion Branch and Ty Law, amongst others. In fact, the Patriots are known for showing no loyalty to their players, which is why Tom Brady exploded when Branch was traded and he was left with a significant void at reciever. And yes, this 9-4 Patriots team just got shut out against the Dolphins, the passing office has suffered greatly this year and Brady has been playing worse than he has probably in his career, and teams are focusing on stopping the running game due to a lack of a passing threat. They are a 1 and done playoff team.

Foundation? What foundation? This roster is a house of cards.

Howabout, for a foundation:

A very young quarterback who is big, strong-armed, mobile in the pocket, and has shown plenty of poise in the pocket and leadership in the lockerroom and huddle. He has all of the physical attributes to succeed, and he will improve each game and throughout the offside. Jason Campbell is our first true franchise quarterback in more than 14 years.

Two young running backs that is likely one of the best 1-2 tandums in the league. Clinton Portis is arguably a top 5 running back who has set rushing records already, and Betts has proven his worth as someone who is capable not just on third downs, but at anby point to fill in. A great change of pace back.

Three young talented wide recievers, one of which has pro-bowl calibre talent and plays like it. Santana Moss - a shrewd Gibbs move - will be a key element to the Redskins offense for many years to come, a true #1 reciever. Antwaan Randle El has proven his worth already on special teams, and his gimmick ability has yet to be fully realized. Glimpses of his potential with Campbell were evidence against Philly, with one long touchdown and one slightly overthrown ball on another. Brandon Lloyd has the talent to succeed and likely will with time and more work in the system with Gibbs and Campbell.

A very talent young H-back/tight end in Chris Cooley who has certainly proven his worth to the Redskins and should be a Redskin for life. Not much needs to be said here.

Right here - we have an incredible foundation for the future. A quarterback, two top running backs, a recieving trio, and a tight end that are all under 26 years of age, will all get better with more work together and another offseason to gain more chemistry and fluidity in Al Saunders' office.

Not to mention an offensive line that bodes to be together for many years still. Most of the best offensive lineman in the league are certainly on the wrong side of 30. This is a mammoth line that has proven it is a force in the running game, and has given up just 17 sacks this season. Not bad for such a horrendous offensive line, as you suggest. And I am sure we will acquire depth within the next 3 years, quite a long time in the NFL.

No foundation? You're having a laugh. And now we proceed to defense:

A 26 year old pass rushing defensive end that has played better and better throughout his first year in Gregg Williams' system. Teammates love him, he has a great work ethic, and certainly is a terrific character guy.

A defensive tackle that, while having an off year like every single player on defense, has pro bowl calibre talent as a run stuffer while still able to get penetration.

A pro bowl linebacker that teams specifically run away from. A playmaker in any other year but this one.

A cornerback that is typically a shutdown corner when healthy, and will become a safety when he slows down.

A free safety that is a true playmaker (in any other year but this one), teams throw away from and still is a force in stopping the run. Almost singlehandedly carried this team to and through the playoffs last year.

Add to the mix a promising outside linebacker that has all of the physical characteristics to excell and is apparently even faster than Marcus Washington; a young defensive tackle in Golston that has steadily improved and will add to depth for a long time coming; Carlos Rogers who had a great first year and WILL improve, despite a sophomore slump; a run stopping defensive end that can add the odd sack now and again and brings terrific veteran leadership to the line and lockeroom - another important character guy. Also will add to depth.

Put all of that together and you certainly have a strong foundation. Do we need help in certain areas of the team? Yes. But then again, which team doesn't? If you look at the team that Gibbs inherited and the team now, while he has made mistakes, we are a vastly improved team.

This WAS an off year. We WILL get better next year. Al Saunders' system takes a year to learn, and I have no doubt that an offseason of Campbell getting all of the first team reps with a healthy Portis will do wonders for our offense. Gregg Williams will get this team to buy back into his system, and will fix the errors that this season brought. And I have no doubt that Gibbs will get this team working hard again, back to playing Redskin football.

People assume that you need pro bowl players at each position, but you don't.

Look at the Saints defense. They are starting two Cowboy linebacker rejects in Scott Fujita and Scott Shanle, a Phildelphia linebacker reject in Mark Simoneau, a Phildelphia defensive tackle reject in Hollis Thomas, and our very own reject in Omar Stoutmire at strong safety. Not to add a 5th round pick in 2004 at defensive tackle that had played in two games before this season in Rodney Leisle. So no, we don't need terrific players at every single position, especially on defense where Gregg Williams has worked with less in the past.

However, we will add an influx of defensive talent, starting with our first round pick and some free agent depth. And in the next few years, I expect us to draft defense time and time again.

Are we perfect? No. But the future looks good, we DO have a foundation, we WILL get better, and you truly never know from one season to the next in this league.

Oh, I get it! You're being sarcastic! Whew... I thought you actually believed this stuff!

If you take half a sentence out of context, you can make anyone sound stupid.

[skinfan2k]

the patriots are not a 1 and done playoff team.. if not for the interception, im sure the pats were headed for another superbowl title last year..

[fdarugar]

Everybody needs to come to the realization that the worst FO moves we made were letting go of Smoot and Pierce...they were both playing near pro bowl level with the Skins. Had we kept them we would have had the flexibility to select Ware or Merrimen and had two solid starters for years to come instead we are left weak at both LB and DB. I look at the offseason before last as a bigger flop than the last.

Carlos Rogers at #9 looks alot worse to me right now...ouch. To sum it up our FO stinks.

[SkinsTillIDie]

the patriots are not a 1 and done playoff team.. if not for the interception, im sure the pats were headed for another superbowl title last year..

This year, however, they could be. They looked horrendous during the Dolphin game, and their offense is not nearly as potent as it was last year with Branch, even with Maroney. A good team will beat them. The Jags or Bengals should be able to shut them down, and even if they do win one, there is no way they get by the Chargers and Ravens... Even the Colts and their porous run defense beat them in New England this year, forcing 4 Brady turnovers to boot.

If you look at their last 6 games: loss to Indi, loss to the Jets, a crushing win over the Packers, and then a plucky win over the Bears, and then they barely escaped with a win over the league-worst 2-win Lions - followed by their no-show against the Dolphins.

Regardless, they miss Deion Branch, and with 12 million in cap space, it could certainly be said that the Patriots front office made a huge mistake in letting him go. It's no surprise that Tom Brady is having the worst year of his career

[SkinsTillIDie]

Walt Harris 6 INT's

Kenny Wright 1 INT

Carlos Rodgers 0 INT's.

You were saying???

I hated Walt Harris, and I know there's more upside to Rodgers theoretically, but I just found that statement odd the way we have been struggling for turnovers.

Walt Harris' 6 interceptions have come in 3 games, with 3 of them coming in one game against the Raiders and Andrew Walter. Goodness gracious me oh my.

He is a starting cornerback in San Fran now, which means he gets a lot more balls thrown at him than at nickle. And thus far, in one game less than last season, he has deflected only 4 more passes while making less tackles. Meanwhile, Rogers has also deflected 15 passes.

And how quickly we forget Harris' inability to takle, and Rogers clear supremecy in that regard. Remember how many first downs and big plays we allowed by Harris' weak arm tackles at the knees? He was a liability against the run, something that Williams' defense can not allow.

And really - for everyone saying we should have drafted Shawne Merriman.

We already HAD two outside linebacking playmakers in Marcus Washington and Lavar arrington, and we had a HUGE hole at cornerback (and even still do). If we had drafted Merriman, we would have had three playmaking outside linebackers whilst only able to start two, and we would have had two 31 year old cornerbacks, neither of which were ever likely to play a full season. Harris, remember missed 11 games in two seasons in Washington, while only intercepting ONE pass.

Walt Harris - 6 interceptions in the past 7 years prior to this one. I think it is evident that this year was a fluke.

[skinfan2k]

brady is 70-20 vs the nfl and 7-5 against the dolphins.. its like how manning struggles against divisional foes.. belicheck will be ready in posteason.. they have been very injuired and rodney harrision is coming back soon.. please refer this back in late january when they will be playing for the afc championship

[TheLongshot]

As in what I've been talking about. A fundamental change in approach to acquiring personnel.

Well, unless we make trades, we aren't going to be picking a lot of players in the draft, so I don't see how a "fundamental" change is going to happen, unless you are talking about something else.

It matters because if you overpay players and spend X dollars, you get less talent for your money than if you find bargains and spend X dollars.

Or, you don't get the player you feel you need. The Redskins philosphy is about getting things done within the budget and not to haggle over price.

That's true. We can't be sure that Ladell's contract is a bargain at this point. But most teams are reupping the guy earlier in their careers. The player is willing to sign earlier, and forego the potential free agency payday, to eliminate the fear of an injury closing out his career.

That's if they are willing to do the deal. Smoot and Pierce wanted to play the FA market. Not a whole lot the Skins could do about that.

I understand your point and I know what Joe is thinking, but he's wrong and can be proven wrong with math. If you missed it, someone recently posted a study done by an economist which confirms the wisdom of the Patriots plan and trashes ours.

The game, tho, is played on the field, not in the realm of statistics. I don't know if anyone else is building a team like we are, tho.

There is more evidence on the table now. Would you pay Brunell $49 million and give up a third round draft choice if you had known he'd be 15-18 with a better supporting cast than Ramsey had in going 10-14?

How would you know that before you made the deal? Can you predict injuries? Is the record because of the QB, or were there other problems with the team? Too many variables.

Would you bring Portis in, giving up the equivalent of a #1 and a #2 and big bucks knowing that you had Ladell Betts here?

Yes, because Portis is something special. Betts is a fine back, but not a guy I'd build a team around.

We constantly hear how San Franciso, St. Louis and Jacksonville were laughing their collective as*es off at us for the contracts/picks we gave in order to get Lloyd, Adam and at the time Brunell...

Same that we laugh at some of our castoffs, like Harris. Sometimes, a change of scenery is all a player needs.

Do not think for a second that Sean overlooked how much money they doled out to Adam...

And Sean will get his eventually. Until then, he's under contract.

Carter seems to have turned a corner and that is very encouraging though I still think he is a liability against the run. He is a situational DE and not an everydown DE although that could change.

Actually, he's gotten very good against the run as well

When you see guys available like Jevon Walker, Deon Branch or perhaps Jerry Porter - these are the guys you go after and if necessary throw multiple picks at - these guys are proven, tough, legit WR's. Either guy would have been able to take much more pressure off of Moss than Lloyd or even ARE IMO.

Problem is, those guys weren't available until training camp. Until then, those teams were trying to keep them. If we waited until training camp to address such things, there would be an uproar.

Course, it doesn't matter if you don't have a QB to get it consistantly to the WRs. So, it didn't matter who we got.

We paid a STEEP price for Jason who likely would have never even seen the field until the final year of his contract if Brunell had only been playing slightly better IMO.

First off, we paid less for Jason than Buffalo for JP Losman or Baltimore for Boller. A steep price is what NY paid for Manning, or what Atlanta paid for Vick. The price for Campbell was fair.

Second, Jason probably would have seen the field next year no matter what. I doubt that Brunell would have started two more years.

Jason

[dinzelwashington]

get me in the redskins uniform.. ill say i got better hands than carlos. heck i got better hands than 50% of the wideouts and corners out there.. some drop passes is just unexplainable. youre in the nfl and u miss the easiest ints. catch the ball, have some confidence when that ball is coming to you.. tell yourself i got this. this is mine.. instead of trying to take off with the ball when you dont have the int yet..

[Oldfan]

Jason -- Well, unless we make trades, we aren't going to be picking a lot of players in the draft, so I don't see how a "fundamental" change is going to happen, unless you are talking about something else.

You don't see that we could stop trading up in the draft, stop giving away draft picks like they are party favors in trades, stop overspending on free agents, or hire an honest-to-God GM this year?

Or, you don't get the player you feel you need. The Redskins philosphy is about getting things done within the budget and not to haggle over price.

What they have been doing isn't working. If it had, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You don't continue doing stuff that doesn't work. That has been Joe Gibbs philosophy on the field, why not off the field?

That's if they are willing to do the deal. Smoot and Pierce wanted to play the FA market. Not a whole lot the Skins could do about that.

Players are far more likely to re-up in the third year of a 5-year deal. The closer they get to FA, the less likely they are to sign. The Betts deal is surprising for that reason.

How would you know that before you made the deal? Can you predict injuries? Is the record because of the QB, or were there other problems with the team? Too many variables.

You have been saying that Joe Gibbs took over a team that was a mess and made it better. Now, even with the benefit of hindsight, you won't concede that Brunell was a mistake? $49 million and a third-round pick for a 35 year old QB who would go 15-18 with this improved team?

Yes, because Portis is something special. Betts is a fine back, but not a guy I'd build a team around.

They are both good but not great backs and their career stats with the Skins prove it. With the #2 pick we gave up, we could have had Steven Jackson or Tatum Bell to pair with Betts. The number #1 pick we could have gotten for Champ could have been used to fill another position. If, even with the benefit of hindsight, you still make this deal, I don't know what else to say.

The Portis deal illustrates my point that, even if you can pick up a good player, you should not make the deal unless it's a bargain.

[0mega]

Pssst its Rogers, no D in it

And yes, the big blunder was not picking up Merriman in that draft. He has developed into the pass rusher our D desperatley needs. Drafting Merriman allows you NOT to sign Carter, and maybe pick up a CB this past offseason, or gasp, keep Walt Harris for another year

Who the hell wanted Harris around for another year? He was considered by most people to be the weak link on the D at the time.

But I agree with your sentiment - Merriman would've been a HUGE asset to our D, and an instant fix to many of our current defensive woes.

:logo:

[tbarz]

the thing that irks me the most about Rogers is whenever he makes a play he's supposed to make, he dances and struts his stuff. then the very next play he gets burned or misses a tackle. where's his concentration? where's his focus? just be consistent. make the tackle. cover your man. it isn't that complicated. there's a reason why the team has so few takeaways. POOR FUNDAMENTALS. The DB's are too far from the ball to intercept or deflect. The LB's, too. The fundamentals on this defense are embarrassing. That's what made them so good the previous two years. Always in the right place @ the right time, always making the tackle. ALWAYS

[Tarpon75]

It is unbelievable how many of the people who support Rogers are the same people who berated Brunell supporters. As has been proven, it was not Brunell's fault that the offense and this team were/are so bad.

Rogers, on the other hand, can take the credit for a lot of the defensive woes. Think of all the sustained drives that opposing offenses have had because CR let the ball go through his hands or bounce of his chest. How about all of the drives that have continued because he gets beat constantly even after giving the WR a fifteen yard cushion.

Sure, every player has had some bad games this year, but Rogers has one good play for every eight bad plays. He better do some serious work in the off season, or he needs to go.

As far as thev cushion you can blame coaching for that.Scheme and coaching philosophy should determine how much of a cushion is given for a young corner.I Have to agree in regard to the hands .I don't know if I have ever seen a db who can't catch anything.Carlos needs to spend a lot of time in the offseason working out with recievers to try to improve his hands.I really think his missed int.against Seattle in the playoffs last year could have cost the team the game.The Skins had all the momentum at the time and had he picked that ball and scored it's a different game.Oh well, spilled milk.

[Chump Bailey]

Problem is, those guys weren't available until training camp. Until then, those teams were trying to keep them. If we waited until training camp to address such things, there would be an uproar.

Branch yes, but there was plenty of speculation that Jevon, a proven WR, wanted out of Green Bay long before TC - a simple phone call was all that was required. Jerry Porter was never happy in Oakland and again I think it would have been worthwhile for the Skins to at least inquire about Jerry, a proven WR.

Course, it doesn't matter if you don't have a QB to get it consistantly to the WRs. So, it didn't matter who we got.

That same logic should then have been applied to the ARE and Lloyd acquisitions.

Actually, he's gotten very good against the run as well

The last two games there has been noted improvement, but before said games he was terrible against the run. He could not shed any T and was simply picked up and shoved aside in most instances. He could not even beat a gimpy Flo Adams IIRC. I agree that he is improving and have stated as much, but he still has much to prove IMO as to whether or not he will be consistently good against the run. I think the team should have targeted Aaron Kampman first, he is very good against the run and pass. Granted he likely was determined to stay in Green Bay, but again, I think he was worth looking at.

First off, we paid less for Jason than Buffalo for JP Losman or Baltimore for Boller. A steep price is what NY paid for Manning, or what Atlanta paid for Vick.

Splitting hairs with the Losman trade, but, yes, the others were more expensive. Eli and Losman were expected to start immediately - Jason was a project.

The price for Campbell was fair.

Pure speculation. Jason has not proved anything yet, though I hope for our sake he obviously does. Encouraging signs - yes, but still very much an unkown especially since the other teams now have something to glean from his play in an effort to exlpoit his weaknesses in the future.

Second, Jason probably would have seen the field next year no matter what. I doubt that Brunell would have started two more years.

Again pure speculation. IMO, Gibbs had no intention of thrusting Jason into service this early and he has said so repeatedly. The tea leaves suggest that I was more inclined to be right - I could easily envision a scenario that would have had Mark starting the 2007 season for the Redskins.